Innate criticals

Compare the rogue dps to rangers and monks but the fact remains that rangers and monks have OTHER ABILITIES and are less restricted in their primary weapon selection (I've played a ranger from 1-57 and a monk from 1-60). As a rogue in a group I MUST use a piercer in the main hand to maximize my damage output. If I luck out and a 1hs or 1hb drops that is better than my piercer, but not as good as my offhand? Too bad. Up against a mob with massive DS? I have no option to use a 2hs or 2hb either. Sorry...rogues get to eat the DS if nobody is there to dispell (and in exp groups dispell burns too much mana to be worth it most times)

As for monks out-dps'ing rogues...well I think they get dual wield at level 1 which gives them time to max that out for their level, so from level 1-13 (probably even 1-20) I would almost guarantee they out-dps rogues. In the 20's it might balance out a bit, but monks still get other combat-centric abilities such as mend and FD that rogues can only dream about.

So it's not like rogues out-dps monks enough to where people would flat out choose a rogue over a monk because a monk can offtank fairly well in addition to having other enviable talents to provide to a group. Rogue? Meh...it's a crapshoot...and at most levels a rogue's defensive skills will be lacking. At most levels, if a rogue has good defensive skills, then his backstab and evasion skills have most likely suffered. I've been in groups with a ranger tank. I've been in groups with a monk tank. I've been in VERY few with a rogue tank.

Rogues under level 65 do miss backstab often.

No I don't have parses. Can we know the innate percentages of success based on skill/level?

Like I've said, I've played 3 rogues from level 1 to 30, 60, and 64 respectively. I'm not blowing smoke. These are real experiences I have witnessed while playing on WR/SOD. Rogues do decent damage, but it appears that it's not enough for people to look to them as being the great dps "solution".

In closing - rogue solo ability is the crappiest of every class in the game...even warriors cry for rogue soloing.
 
kukov said:
Compare the rogue dps to rangers and monks but the fact remains that rangers and monks have OTHER ABILITIES and are less restricted in their primary weapon selection (I've played a ranger from 1-57 and a monk from 1-60). As a rogue in a group I MUST use a piercer in the main hand to maximize my damage output. If I luck out and a 1hs or 1hb drops that is better than my piercer, but not as good as my offhand? Too bad. Up against a mob with massive DS? I have no option to use a 2hs or 2hb either. Sorry...rogues get to eat the DS if nobody is there to dispell (and in exp groups dispell burns too much mana to be worth it most times)

As for monks out-dps'ing rogues...well I think they get dual wield at level 1 which gives them time to max that out for their level, so from level 1-13 (probably even 1-20) I would almost guarantee they out-dps rogues. In the 20's it might balance out a bit, but monks still get other combat-centric abilities such as mend and FD that rogues can only dream about.

So it's not like rogues out-dps monks enough to where people would flat out choose a rogue over a monk because a monk can offtank fairly well in addition to having other enviable talents to provide to a group. Rogue? Meh...it's a crapshoot...and at most levels a rogue's defensive skills will be lacking. At most levels, if a rogue has good defensive skills, then his backstab and evasion skills have most likely suffered. I've been in groups with a ranger tank. I've been in groups with a monk tank. I've been in VERY few with a rogue tank.

Rogues under level 65 do miss backstab often.

No I don't have parses. Can we know the innate percentages of success based on skill/level?

Like I've said, I've played 3 rogues from level 1 to 30, 60, and 64 respectively. I'm not blowing smoke. These are real experiences I have witnessed while playing on WR/SOD. Rogues do decent damage, but it appears that it's not enough for people to look to them as being the great dps "solution".

In closing - rogue solo ability is the crappiest of every class in the game...even warriors cry for rogue soloing.
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First off, dispell doesn't take too much many to use regularly in exp groups. Secondly the only reason I would choose a monk over a rogue for my exp group is if I needed a puller.

And cool, you've been in a group with a monk tank and a ranger tank. And this happened at 65, with decent gear. If its otherwise, you're grouping with idiots and you probably didn't exp very well or you were in like, Eldenals. They arent supposed to be tanks, and neither are rogues. Once you get good gear, that trivializes older exp zones because naturally its going to be easier. In turn, allowing a melee class other then a PAL, SHD, WAR to tank.

And if things are going to be changed, proof with parses is a much easier way to convince the staff about something that needs to be changed. Actually, I'd almost say it's required.
 
ok I have extensive parses of LOW level rogue.
My twinked rogue does a ton of DPS. Lets say warrior does base dmg. Rogue does 2x base on CONSISTENT bases. This posts did NOT intend to touch any class balancing. This post did state that rogues lack a cool factor pre 65. Crits are cool pre 65 cause there are not that many of them around.

Saying that rogues are fine at lvl 65. Yah ok sure. Saying that they get assassinate ok.... Rogues can not assassinate pre 65 anyways right? I am talking about Low levels. Not 65. At 65 rogues get access to all crit AAs and most have +crit gear as does every mele and this get to be a moot point.
 
Drotic said:
ok I have extensive parses of LOW level rogue.
My twinked rogue does a ton of DPS. Lets say warrior does base dmg. Rogue does 2x base on CONSISTENT bases. This posts did NOT intend to touch any class balancing. This post did state that rogues lack a cool factor pre 65. Crits are cool pre 65 cause there are not that many of them around.

Saying that rogues are fine at lvl 65. Yah ok sure. Saying that they get assassinate ok.... Rogues can not assassinate pre 65 anyways right? I am talking about Low levels. Not 65. At 65 rogues get access to all crit AAs and most have +crit gear as does every mele and this get to be a moot point.
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Because y'know, being necessary for VD and ED maps, a whole minigameish thing based on robbing the hell out of people, and a seperate tradeskill now, and doing a ton of dps, an awesome scout in many areas (including earlier raid zones), yeah those aren't cool at all.
 
Wizards get the flash bang. Boom Boom crits. Big numbers.

Rogues are sneaky (stealthy), and love more damage.

Id love to post in favor if this just because of the extra dps it would mean.
But no. Rogues dont need separate filters for backstab or innate crits pre-65.

Its all about the dps. Thats the pursuit. Tmaps, traps, poisons, crits , hide/sneak, whatever, none of it really matters.


At low low levels. All rogues are not created equal. I have no doubt that rangers would outdamage rogues with that never fail duel wield/double attack style. Monks could prolly pull out some smooth attack rounds +kick.

Low levels are all about weapons. Some people go through tons of levels with just rusty sword.

But, if a low level rogue has a good piercer .... well... no one can come close to your dps.
 
Totaly agree with you Ponden.
All I am saying is that I'd love to see some crit spam on rogues at low levels. The End.
The reasons being that they are masters of mele and that for all the non existent utility that they bring to a low level group they should get something cool.
 
If you are a master at twinkery why do you not just give your rogue a nice selection of gear for this.

There is the finely crafted bracer, I am pretty sure the frost boots as well but I am not sure on a level recc for them as well as the frostweaver cloak which to my knowledge still has non.

There is a critical hit bracer on level 20-30 tmaps or so I have been told/read on the wiki.
Your thurgadin gives you +1 crit.

You are whining over a moot point , if a rogue wants to crit there are plenty of options.

Any decently geared rogue at low levels should and probably will be out damaging the equally geared ranger.
The only argument you have seemingly given in this thread is that it looks cool and that you think people will appreciate you or the rogue more do to huge mega backstabs (which arent that huge with bad weapons tbh, atleast in the level range your talking about).


Also as for the rangers getting crits early comparison , half the time I notice a critical hit(via bow) there is no message on either of my clients nor do the groups notice it in the spam. Infact I do not even know the maximum damage my ranger puts out through his bow since I do not know which is really a non crit. I will land 900 and be told its a critical hit , then I will land 1000 and not get a message about it.

Noone congratulates the rangers for this stuff either.



And all of this is based on and around pre 60 experience, since that is where you say your argument is coming from.
 
lotox said:
If you are a master at twinkery why do you not just give your rogue a nice selection of gear for this.
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You missed the meaning of the word "innate"

As for rangers getting grats on bow crits...my ranger got grats on bow crits quite often in his low levels. Actually it was more like "Holy crap! Nice crit!" With the rogue it's "Haha they caught you stealing...again...you fail"

Still...I don't care about innate crits. I would like backstab message moved to the crit filter. Can anyone confirm whether that can be moved or is it limited by the client? If it can be moved, can it be made to work that way?
 
this has nothing to do with twinking.
My rogue has nice gear, but of course I am using the stuff I got with a lvl 65 group. So thats kind of a moot point.
What in my opinion rogues deserve is a lil crit spam just for the fun of it. Not because they cant do their role without it but because rogues at low levels are dull, till they grow up and start disarming traps for raids / scout / assassinate / do more damage than monks etc. Also on top of that if u take into consideration the handicaps that class has for example
a) that rogues cant tank worth shit even compare to rangers
b) solo worse than a warrior or at most on par with (not really good 2nd box either cause u need the attention to do dps)
c) have no utility that they can add to a group at low levels. (other than maybe see if named is up. But thats probably more farming then grouping at low levels)
 
kukov said:
You missed the meaning of the word "innate"
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You missed the fact that the argument for this is to make rogues look cool , I dont pay attention to that word on the basis of it being cool, If a rogue wants to crit he has the options, but there so far has been no argument in this thread worth giving attention to justify them having it innate.

I just do not see how you justify making a change that will affect the balance, even if they had a 1% chance of innate crit its still a change giving them more power. I do not think the devs want to tamper with anything on the basis of it making a class any cooler.


a) I dont think its necessary to comment on this , This thread is not about tanking so why would you mention it; I have never thought rangers or rogues would be the optimal tanking choice and I doubt they ever will be.
b) How is adding innate criticals going to benefit low level rogues , a small chance that your backstab opening or whatever is going to crit I doubt will turn the tide on any solo fight on more then one mob. (Again low levels/mid levels)

c) You should clarify what you mean by low levels , Maybe around level 15 you wont differentiate two poorly equipped rogues or rangers but at that point do you really need to be picky? Without knowing exactly what you mean by low levels its hard to reply added to the fact that there is not much to reply about since most of its already been said.

You mention its not because they cannot do their role without it but then mention handicaps as well.
 
its a tradeoff. While rogues do not innately get innate critical, they get backstab. and while there is the coolness factor of getting a big crit, its is overpowering to give a class with already insane dps innate crits. Rogues are not flashy, they are stealthy. if you want flashy, play a wiz and turn spell effects to max, that will give you the flashy.
 
To be honest, I like things to be secret about my class so it doesn't get nerfed. I don't want a big advertisement that says 'LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!' (hi rangers). If people don't know what your class can do, then group with people who are knowledgeable about the game and DO know what your class can do.
 
OK I took this into consideration and did some changing: From this point on, whenever a rogue backstabs for a higher than average number, a random person on the server will /ooc DING! 65! and then you can pretend that all the grats that follow are for you.
 
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