Innate criticals
- Thread starter Drotic
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robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
No, it's not. People not noticing you doesn't mean you're useless. If you want people to ooh and aah over you parse DPS, that will shut them up.kukov said:
I can't really comment on this because I've never played a low level rogue, but all classes get better as they level up and increase their skills. Wizards don't drop ultimate blasts or primals at level 50 either, and I'm sure getting a mostly resisted "primal blast" for 1200 damage makes me wince a lot more than you missing a backstab.
a.) VD and ED maps NEED a rogue, no way around it.
b.) I don't even know what this means, I wouldn't take an underleveled character in any group unless I was PLing them or trying to get them an item or soemthing
c.) Again, what? You're putting rogues down way more than you need to here, especially in an XP group setting which is really where they shine. The biggest problem with rogues is that they need to be in AE/RAMP range to do their awesome dps, but you don't see many of either in XP zones, and when you do they are a lot more manageable.
d.) depending on situation rogues are better dps than a wizard. In an xp group I'd take a lower level rogue over a low level wizard because I'd rather have slower consistent dps than wait around for someone with a 3k mana pool to med up all the time.
This actually makes sense as a suggestion, and isn't what the OP asked for, at all. He wanted rogues to get innate melee crits so that they could crit backstab from level one (or whenever you train backstab)
The problem is that I think backstab messages get filtered with standard combat hits, so most people don't play with them on. I don't even keep any melee damage on at all because I hate the spam but if they were filtered to melee crits some more people might notice them.
Asura_WR
Dalayan Adventurer
Wesell said:syduck: I can't even believe you posted this.
Agreed.
I like the idea of crit-like notification on rogue backstabs, that would actually be pretty slick. And I'm sure it's possible, melee messages have been changing a lot lately. Definitely loving the new rampage messages.
Wesell said:
I posted what I have observed after playing rogues on this server the past 3 years. It happens. My ranger has similar problems finding a place in groups at times, but in the event he can't find a group he solos easy enough on his own.
Tyrone at least went through and addressed certain points. But I'd like to point out that in only 2 tiers of Tmaps do you NEED a rogue and one of their class abilities.
Parsing DPS is great, but I've never done it nor do I really want to. Parses are only valuable to people out of the game and in game it's perception of your dps that matters.
As for my b) comment it meant that less than lvl 65 rogues aren't perceived as being any more important dps wise than a monk, ranger, or wizard. Problem being that the others have other abilities to fall back on (monks can pull, the other two can join kite groups fairly easy as well - rangers have sow and some other buffs, patch heals, root CC, snare, and wizards have ports, root CC, AOE's, snare) So before 65 when rogues are good dps, but not refined dps like later on, they don't have anything really "extra" that makes them stand out in the crowd of LFG's.
So am I asking for something trivial that's just an "ooo ahhh" kind of thing? Yes. That's all I'm asking for so that people at least see the rogue doing SOMETHING in the group outside of disappearing every now and again.
As for the comment about DOT's...no the DOT won't show dmg, but you will see the message of "...has been poisoned, ...has been diseased, ...blood begins to boil" etc. So you know they're workin their mojo on the mobs. Problem with backstab is it gets thrown in with regular combat instead of crit messages and most people I think turn off the combat general spam as it gets overloaded fast..
If it can't happen because of the client, then whatever. I just don't think it's a huge thing to ask for to get some backstab bling to flaunt.
Innate crits however would be too much. Hell I can barely shrug off all my aggro as it is...
OK lets actually analyze the issue
Bard - well rounded
Beastlord - melee / pet / slow...
Cleric - master of healing (innate heal crit)
Druid - well rounded
Enchanter - mez....
Magician - nuke / rain / pet
Monk - master of fighting and agility (ridiculous dodge/ triple atk)
Necro - master of dots/dead (innate dot crit)
Pally - hybrid / master of undead (innate crit vs undead)
Ranger - melee / master of the bow (innate bow crit)
Rogue - pure melee/ master of backstab (no crit)
SK - tank/dps/FD
Shaman - heal/slow/haste/buff (well rounded)
Warrior - pure melee-tank / master of fighting (innate melee crit)
Wizard - pure spell DPS / master of nukes (innate spell crit)
all classes that are masters of something have the innate ability to optimize it, crit/dodge, except for rogues.
as for playing a rogue, pre65 and AAs BS blows and it misses a hell of a lot.
Bard - well rounded
Beastlord - melee / pet / slow...
Cleric - master of healing (innate heal crit)
Druid - well rounded
Enchanter - mez....
Magician - nuke / rain / pet
Monk - master of fighting and agility (ridiculous dodge/ triple atk)
Necro - master of dots/dead (innate dot crit)
Pally - hybrid / master of undead (innate crit vs undead)
Ranger - melee / master of the bow (innate bow crit)
Rogue - pure melee/ master of backstab (no crit)
SK - tank/dps/FD
Shaman - heal/slow/haste/buff (well rounded)
Warrior - pure melee-tank / master of fighting (innate melee crit)
Wizard - pure spell DPS / master of nukes (innate spell crit)
all classes that are masters of something have the innate ability to optimize it, crit/dodge, except for rogues.
as for playing a rogue, pre65 and AAs BS blows and it misses a hell of a lot.
Retkov said:
Saying that classes are a master of something means they should have crits doesn't mean they should have crits. Yes, it's tempting to say that because a class has a percieved fantasy role that they should have every ability in the game that maxes that role, however balance is still very important. Backstab is already very high DPS. Putting crits that happen often enough to be noticed on top of the already high dps would be imbalancing.
oh and warriors as melee masters make me rofl, warrior dps is pretty meh
Spiritplx
Dalayan Elder
Rogues are THE BEST melee dps in the game. Just for those who are reading this and didn't know that since you cannot see how awesome BS is through text. Anyone who would take a wizard over a rogue for the DPS spot in an exp group (if both from the same tier) needs to learn that constant exp is better than killing shit fast and taking a break.
If you choose who is in your group based on "flashy" text that pops up while grouping, you need to learn more about game mechanics.
If you choose who is in your group based on "flashy" text that pops up while grouping, you need to learn more about game mechanics.
let me clarify. i know 65 ++ rogues are bad ass. but pre 65 the blow, a small innate crit chance only to BS may be enough to make them not suck.
BTW those of you commenting try playing a pre 65 rog b4 you post. I twink more retardedly than 99% of this server. and in the best of the best gear pre 65 rogues dont even compare to rng/monk.
BTW those of you commenting try playing a pre 65 rog b4 you post. I twink more retardedly than 99% of this server. and in the best of the best gear pre 65 rogues dont even compare to rng/monk.
Spiritplx
Dalayan Elder
Retkov said:
As previously stated, A LOT of classes in SoD get way better on the high end and lack on the low end. Bards are a great example. Many people quit playing the bard in the mid game due to the underpowered nature of the class, but all of that changes in the high end. Leveling up as a bard, I had no trouble with getting rogues in my groups and actually preferred them to most classes.
Asura_WR
Dalayan Adventurer
Tempus said:
Yes. Parses please.
I have a rogue that I've played from 1 to 47. Back-stabs do not miss as often as you claim they do. And they miss just as badly on a 65 because I have played several well-gear rogues and missing happens, here and there. Sure it's a downer, but you land more then you miss, and that DPS is AMAZING.
Also, if you're such a twinker, throw a backstab charm on your rogue and some daggers with mods, there are tons. That's your best bet as of yet. But yes, don't make a claim like that without lengthy parses.
I dont have the parses any more cause its been over a year since lvling a rog. However let me explain. High End when rogues are good, BS does approximately 50% of a rogues dps. Low end bs does about 20%. Rogues dps relies so heavily on their ability to BS that not having it hurts then. Alot of this comes from A)not having improved bs and B) rogs bs dmg relies solely on the base dmg of a dagger (with 17 being the highest). At low end it is very difficult to get a higher dmg dagger. Whereas weap ratios are the only things that effect other classes
As for wiz doing crap on some raid mobs vs rogue, this statement is nullified by the fact that their are several types of raid mob, some reflect, counter spell. others AE close up, stun close up, ramp, whirlwind, have high ac. There are fairly even numbers as to what melees vs casters can do on raid mobs.
As for wiz doing crap on some raid mobs vs rogue, this statement is nullified by the fact that their are several types of raid mob, some reflect, counter spell. others AE close up, stun close up, ramp, whirlwind, have high ac. There are fairly even numbers as to what melees vs casters can do on raid mobs.
the biggest problem with the base dmg issue is daggers are small and thus fast but have a low base dmg. However if the bs dmg was cut in half per point and 17 dmg were 34 dmg daggers there is a lot more room to have effective progression, but then a dagger would be too slow for rp reasons.
Wesell
Dalayan Elder
Retkov said:
Retkov said:
Uh, I don't have any parses either, but I'm pretty sure that even if you picked weapons for a pre-65 rogue and ranger based solely on ratio that the rogue's backstab damage would still put him at higher DPS that the rangers tipple attack and kick.
I'm not sure how a rogue would stack up against a monk's tipple attack and combat moves if he didn't pick out a rogue friendly main-hander, it would be interesting to see parses. I would be surprised if it turns out that monks are out-DPSing rogues however.