Fix Bow Progression Statting

Just because this is about bows I'll toss in my opinion about bows.

I'd like to see some tank-only bows with comparable stats to tank ranged items. Its vexing as a warrior to have to swap a bow in and out because they don't have AC or stats in a fight where I want to foelock mobs from range or even just for pulling.

I know there are clicky items but clicky items can be resisted for the most part, and bows are cool.
 
I agree completely with Fuwok. the bows don't need to have incredible ratios, but the raw hp on bows is pathetic. stat range items several tiers lower are just so much better it's hard to keep a bow in all the time and sacrifice so many stats. Tank only bows is an awesome idea!
 
So, what you're asking for are another group of items slating only for three classes (of which you rarely have multiples in raid) which will clog drop tables. I suggest a variation on this idea.

How about a group of bows focused more on tanking and gaining range aggro/foelock for tanks while still being an option for when the other classes when they should find themselves in a tanking situation? They could have stats/effects/something on them that would make them less desirable than the usual bows, but still give a valid tanking option to all classes. This way, some people may still want them after their first 2-3 drops.
 
Animand said:
So, what you're asking for are another group of items slating only for three classes (of which you rarely have multiples in raid) which will clog drop tables. I suggest a variation on this idea.

How about a group of bows focused more on tanking and gaining range aggro/foelock for tanks while still being an option for when the other classes when they should find themselves in a tanking situation? They could have stats/effects/something on them that would make them less desirable than the usual bows, but still give a valid tanking option to all classes. This way, some people may still want them after their first 2-3 drops.
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You could also jsut convert certain range items currently in the game to Bow types.

Keep all the classes on them, it just now has the option of use for pulling.
 
ieatrice said:
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Misery
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Windsinger

Tier 5 bows have better overall statting then Tier 7 bows :/

http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Shooting_Starmetal_Ballista
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Woe,_Bane_of_the_Brother
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What about this? You know, the original point of this thread until a few people decided to selfishly side track the thread.

One point I would like to make is that the stats that are "better" are stats that rangers don't care about as much. Also, by the time you are in Tier 7, you should not be hurting for stats from you bow because your stats from other gear should have you close to max on at least the key stats. Look at me. I am not 100% sure on what tier I fit in gear wise, but I would assume that if I averaged the tiers of my gear I would land at about tier 4 maybe even as low as 3. I have STR maxed, and both AGI and STA within 20. I am not so sure that stats on the bows really need to be looked into. Just my 2cp
 
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yeah but after your stats hit 305, how many people seriously care anymore? i'm willing to bet a lot of folks are willing to forgo stats in exchange for hp/ac/mana/focus effects.


Nuvian
 
Nwaij said:
Go read about hidden strength. You are far from maxed on any stat.
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You are correct that I am far from maxed, in the sense of hidden strength. If you look at my fomelo, I even have the AA to some degree. However, the added bonus of hidden strength is much smaller than that of normal. This is discussed here http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=19566. I guess in a backwards way I was trying to say that stats don't matter as much in the long run, as far as bow progression it always has been about Ratio.

Now, I am not specialist on equipment balancing, but there is also the issue of procs that has been ignored. Tell me, how do the procs on the tier 7 compare to the procs on tier 5 bows compare? If they are not an improvement, then I would agree that more stats should be added to the tier 7 bows, however, if there is as much of an improvement in procs as there is in ratio, in my opinion they need to be left alone.
 
Nuvian said:
yeah but after your stats hit 305, how many people seriously care anymore? i'm willing to bet a lot of folks are willing to forgo stats in exchange for hp/ac/mana/focus effects.


Nuvian
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Stats along tiers tend to not progress. Its an issue over all with most tiers. If you compare Diodimus to anik there really isn't a huge difference btw item stats at tier 4 and tier 9. Give Diodimus max stat AAs, a Juggo, and a diety aug and they are basically the same.

Sure higher end you have access to more and higher focuses and effects, but CUMULATIVE stats are always lacking. Bows are really just a drop in the bucket on this issue. Also, at all levels people care about HS stats. Even if maxxed out only gives a few % dps or whatever it is, people dump 200AAs into 5% dps increase or 686k past an eternal for a supreme.... The time it takes for max tomes or grind high end charms shows how much effort people are willing to put in for very marginal effects.

Note: Some classes have less trouble than others. For instance rogues and monks are generally much easier to max than hybrids. Also, wis and cha tend to be the high end stats that fill out.


Comparison of Aniketos vs Diodimus(added in charm, aas, diety aug)

____Anik___Diod__
str - 338___343
sta - 313___317
agi - 390___329
dex - 417___330
wis - 247___163
cha - 278___194

As you can see, the melee stats are quite similar considering at least a 5 tier difference in gear lvl.

EDIT: Also, I am not trying to say the crit/attack/hp/ac/resists....... are not considered, just that primary stats seem to stagnate along tiers.
 
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A couple more bows would not hurt... I was actually talking about that 30 minutes ago with a guildy.


There are some very decent bows for T4-7 ranges ...the transition from ValorA bow and Clockwork is kinda okay. The thing is... AFAIK, it's the only potent one. After that you are stuck downgrading your ratio for a slightly better bow all around coming from a mob at least the same difficulty as generals which are T10 ( Branch of Conquering legacies ) or farming for 6 months to get Flarewynd... Obviously Masalavir is out of question but yeah.

Was pretty curious to know if that was the intentions of the Devs as far as weapon progression is concerned with ranger range abilities.



Regards
 
Kazimir said:
Comparison of Aniketos vs Diodimus(added in charm, aas, diety aug)

____Anik___Diod__
str - 338___343
sta - 313___317
agi - 390___329
dex - 417___330
wis - 247___163
cha - 278___194

As you can see, the melee stats are quite similar considering at least a 5 tier difference in gear lvl.

EDIT: Also, I am not trying to say the crit/attack/hp/ac/resists....... are not considered, just that primary stats seem to stagnate along tiers.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I like the comparison. Things are so much easier to see with real numbers. I agree with you that STR and STA are pretty close. Both within 5. I will no agree that any of the others are close. Agi has a difference of 61, Dex a difference of 87, Wis a difference of 84, Cha a difference of 84 again. This is a difference of over 10 per stat per tier. This is in no way close. This is a difference of over 10 per stat per tier. You also seemed to have left out AC and HP. Not to mention resists. More stats that matter. In summary, your statement was well founded, but your evidence contradicts it.


I would also like to say, I am not wholly against adding stats to bows or maybe even more bows. The thing I would like to avoid is eventual class nerfing due to gear imbalance at the late tiers. I just want to put every thought on the table so that this issue can be given proper attention and consideration by the powers that be.

Also, Kaz, what charm did you give me in that comparison. It wouldn't make sense for us to have the same charm at the same tier, at least in my opinion.
 
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gave you juggo stats. charms are dependent on player grind not tier as w/ deity aug and AAs can be grinded w/ time. But the actual gear is what needs considered. Also, while wis and cha are nice, they are secondary stats and as per the edit, which is in your quote, im not discounting those stats.

Also the sum of the difference of the primary stats is 139 (-5-4+61+87). 139/5(tier difference) = 28. 28/20(number of gear slots excluding charm) = 1.4. So effectively each item gains 1.4 primary stats increase every tier.

I personally think that # should be 2 or slightly above. I think wish some minor work, an algorithm could be devised to measure if an items stats are fairly on tier. This would also have to factor the other stats, but yeah. Most items seem to just have stats thrown on them. which some designers have said b4 that for their items. there isn't much along the lines of guidance for stat progression.
 
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