Fix Bow Progression Statting

Kazimir said:
gave you juggo stats. charms are dependent on player grind not tier as w/ deity aug and AAs can be grinded w/ time. But the actual gear is what needs considered. Also, while wis and cha are nice, they are secondary stats and as per the edit, which is in your quote, im not discounting those stats.

Also the sum of the difference of the primary stats is 139 (-5-4+61+87). 139/5(tier difference) = 28. 28/20(number of gear slots excluding charm) = 1.4. So effectively each item gains 1.4 primary stats increase every tier.

I personally think that # should be 2 or slightly above. I think wish some minor work, an algorithm could be devised to measure if an items stats are fairly on tier. This would also have to factor the other stats, but yeah. Most items seem to just have stats thrown on them. which some designers have said b4 that for their items. there isn't much along the lines of guidance for stat progression.
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I like this. However, we cannot completely disregard all secondary stats. And I know that I have some gear that is way above my tier as well as some that is below my tier. I don't know what kind of an effect this may have, but maybe we should consider two toons geared completely in gear from their current tier. This is of course entirely too much work for me to do unless I am really bored, so I will leave this up to the enterprising player or Dev who will make the final decision.
 
Jotigidou said:
A couple more bows would not hurt... I was actually talking about that 30 minutes ago with a guildy.


There are some very decent bows for T4-7 ranges ...the transition from ValorA bow and Clockwork is kinda okay. The thing is... AFAIK, it's the only potent one. After that you are stuck downgrading your ratio for a slightly better bow all around coming from a mob at least the same difficulty as generals which are T10 ( Branch of Conquering legacies ) or farming for 6 months to get Flarewynd... Obviously Masalavir is out of question but yeah.

Was pretty curious to know if that was the intentions of the Devs as far as weapon progression is concerned with ranger range abilities.



Regards
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You should roll a rogue. You can buy a 17 damage piercer, get one from C-mal 3, or get one as early as storm's eye, and all you do is trade in for slightly better ratios/procs/worn effects/minor stat upgrades (CoD-nice proc, ValorB-nice proc, BS mod, UT-nice proc, better BS mod) until UC (still tech 17 dmg, but with +1 disease damage and a nice BS mod) or IS (an ACTUAL 18 dmg piercer, BS mod, no saves, and itemization requirements). This seems like poor weapon progression, but really it's just that there's not that much progression required. As rangers creep up the tiers, they shit range damage pretty effectively...is there really a problem here?
 
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Dimmi said:
You should roll a rogue. You can buy a 17 damage piercer, get one from C-mal 3, or get one as early as storm's eye, and all you do is trade in for slightly better ratios/procs/worn effects/minor stat upgrades (CoD-nice proc, ValorB-nice proc, BS mod, UT-nice proc, better BS mod) until UC (still tech 17 dmg, but with +1 disease damage and a nice BS mod) or IS (an ACTUAL 18 dmg piercer, BS mod, no saves, and itemization requirements). This seems like poor weapon progression, but really it's just that there's not that much progression required. As rangers creep up the tiers, they shit range damage pretty effectively...is there really a problem here?
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Agreed, rogues have it hard too.

But i'm talking T7 and up...

There is basically no options available. The only real way to increase your damage for 3 tiers is to raise your ATK and stats or suck it up and /auto attack with a 2hander like I do half of the time now unless i can't be in melee range.

Yes you guys only get small tweaks, but you get tweaks. I feel like I should be able to raid more than 1 mob in a 3 tier difference to get a better bow.

Unless you call questing 6 months for 1 piece, a better bow.
 
Meh every physical DPS class has some major itemization issues when it comes to weapons.

Warriors: Mainhand aggro weapons. Spend 1k on a RHLS, or take a few days and quest it, and you're set from level 40 until Tier5 or so when you can get a Ytrazliarch. Other than Ytraz, there are practically no mainhand aggro proc weapons until Flamescar.

Monks/Beastlords: Spend 1k for Contaminated Gloves and use your bare fists. There aren't any weapons that will produce more DPS until Tier6 or higher. Even at tier6, using Fistwraps of the Chosen from CoD and bare fists will out perform any actual weapons (Although DotO fist is probably equivalent). The first real weapons that are worth using for monks/beastlords are either Fist of Solid Ice (Thaz was just retuned or something so who knows how realistic this is now), Obsidian Spiked Greatstaff (Also from thaz), ED map offhand or 2hb (very very rare), Denos 2hb (Probably the hardest tier7 encounter).
 
Jotigidou said:
Agreed, rogues have it hard too.

But i'm talking T7 and up...

There is basically no options available. The only real way to increase your damage for 3 tiers is to raise your ATK and stats or suck it up and /auto attack with a 2hander like I do half of the time now unless i can't be in melee range.

Yes you guys only get small tweaks, but you get tweaks. I feel like I should be able to raid more than 1 mob in a 3 tier difference to get a better bow.

Unless you call questing 6 months for 1 piece, a better bow.
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Let me introduce you to rogues who have two options(Well they had two and that got fixed by a certain wrist giving them more)

1) 70k charm forever.
1b)Be dumb and use entropy(Hey you could use the undercity dagger now) to keep your backstab mod maxed and buy a new charm to have a pretty fomelo. Sacrificing better ratios/stats/resists on much better offhands
2) Find a stoneculler.
2b) Get THE WRIST
3) Be a bitch and lose your backstab mod for a pretty fomelo may as well roll a monk/ranger.

I find it hilarious that there is a dagger from poentropy thats 16/21 while you can buy a 17/24? dagger thats flat out better. No class besides rogues should ever be interested in daggers, maybe some bards until they get better pieces. The sanctum dagger is a huge joke, noone in their right mind would use it outside of rogues. If you could take off the attack hit/dampen it for the non rogue classes that might make it not a single class item. Then you have total mysteries like how the valor b dagger will out parse the one from upper thaz if you can land the proc somewhat reliably.

Dagger stats are dumb as hell and actually shift away from what you want on a rogue. The best geared rogue on the server is running out of strength and doesn't even hit the cap with shaman stats (lol hard)


The serisuz bow flat out fixed the gaping chasm of bows before and until flarewynd
 
Otcho said:
Let me introduce you to rogues who have two options(Well they had two and that got fixed by a certain wrist giving them more)

1) 70k charm forever.
1b)Be dumb and use entropy(Hey you could use the undercity dagger now) to keep your backstab mod maxed and buy a new charm to have a pretty fomelo. Sacrificing better ratios/stats/resists on much better offhands
2) Find a stoneculler.
2b) Get THE WRIST
3) Be a bitch and lose your backstab mod for a pretty fomelo may as well roll a monk/ranger.

I find it hilarious that there is a dagger from poentropy thats 16/21 while you can buy a 17/24? dagger thats flat out better. No class besides rogues should ever be interested in daggers, maybe some bards until they get better pieces. The sanctum dagger is a huge joke, noone in their right mind would use it outside of rogues. If you could take off the attack hit/dampen it for the non rogue classes that might make it not a single class item. Then you have total mysteries like how the valor b dagger will out parse the one from upper thaz if you can land the proc somewhat reliably.

Dagger stats are dumb as hell and actually shift away from what you want on a rogue. The best geared rogue on the server is running out of strength and doesn't even hit the cap with shaman stats (lol hard)


The serisuz bow flat out fixed the gaping chasm of bows before and until flarewynd
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I can't argue with you on the rogue crap since i'm still a fucking newbie around here.

BUT what I can argue about is about the serizus bow supposedly fixing the chasm.

That's BS. The mob is retardedly HARD. and you have to get a full UC clear to get to him in the first place. The zone is harder than everything but IS. Nothing is even close Trash-wise, and even the boss Serizus is arguagly ( when you can pull off the strat perfectly ) barely easier than Generals. There is no surprise a large percentage of the T6-10 rangers uses that stupid fucking bow from Clockwork for like 1 year.

Anyways, can devs put a word about the bow progression please ? I'm very curious.

EDIT: Might I add, the now seems like one of his rarer drops, which makes it even more painful.
 
Jotigidou said:
.....words i don't care about.....

That's BS. The mob is retardedly HARD. and you have to get a full UC clear to get to him in the first place. The zone is harder than everything but IS. Nothing is even close Trash-wise, and even the boss Serizus is arguagly ( when you can pull off the strat perfectly ) barely easier than Generals. There is no surprise a large percentage of the T6-10 rangers uses that stupid fucking bow from Clockwork for like 1 year.

Anyways, can devs put a word about the bow progression please ? I'm very curious.

EDIT: Might I add, the now seems like one of his rarer drops, which makes it even more painful.
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What bow dropped from an early mob? All of the Tier 5/6 bows drop from close to if not THE hardest mob in the zone. It is a trend that has annoyed me for quite some time, but is consistent from tier to tier. Your logic in the above post is thus flawed. Bows never come easy.
 
Diodimus said:
What bow dropped from an early mob? All of the Tier 5/6 bows drop from close to if not THE hardest mob in the zone. It is a trend that has annoyed me for quite some time, but is consistent from tier to tier. Your logic in the above post is thus flawed. Bows never come easy.
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You are somewhat right about bows dropping from the last mob ( bloodseeker being an exception i guess )

http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Bloodseeker

Not the end mob, and he's rather easy even if deep.




But if you did actually read the whole post, I clearly stated there was no bow that dropped from a T8 mob, nor an easy T9 mob either. I'm sure your guild has attempted Serizus Blacktongue so you know how easy he is right ?

That being said, I wanted feedback from a Dev about this.

Thx in advance



EDIT: Also, after reading your post again, i realise i did not even talk about the bows being on early trash so I dont know WTF you are talking about. I was comparing the trash from IS and the trash from Undercity.
 
Jotigidou said:
That's BS. The mob is retardedly HARD. and you have to get a full UC clear to get to him in the first place. The zone is harder than everything but IS. Nothing is even close Trash-wise, and even the boss Serizus is arguagly ( when you can pull off the strat perfectly ) barely easier than Generals. There is no surprise a large percentage of the T6-10 rangers uses that stupid fucking bow from Clockwork for like 1 year.
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This is where you talked about mobs being hard. I made a comment about how at ALL tiers that bows DROP, they come from hard mobs. Seeing as this is a discussion about bow progression, it was a legitimate comment.

Jotigidou said:
You are somewhat right about bows dropping from the last mob ( bloodseeker being an exception i guess )

http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Bloodseeker

Not the end mob, and he's rather easy even if deep.




But if you did actually read the whole post, I clearly stated there was no bow that dropped from a T8 mob, nor an easy T9 mob either. I'm sure your guild has attempted Serizus Blacktongue so you know how easy he is right ?

That being said, I wanted feedback from a Dev about this.

Thx in advance



EDIT: Also, after reading your post again, i realise i did not even talk about the bows being on early trash so I dont know WTF you are talking about. I was comparing the trash from IS and the trash from Undercity.
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There are several things in which i want to address from this. Never did I imply you said anything dropping from a TRASH mob. I said early mob. My bad for saying mob instead of named. This is meant to address your comment about an EASY tier 9 mob.

Second, I would like to point out that I never claimed a bow from every tier. There are several tiers in which a ranger uses the same bow. Hell, I have been using Swiftshot since I started raiding.

Lastly, I would like to address your arrogance. Just because I have decided to enjoy ALL content of the server as well as enjoying the company of my guildmates as well as having a life does not mean that I know less than you. Just because I am in a lower tier and have not leached onto a guild that was GROSSLY higher tier than me as soon as possible does not mean that I know less than you. In fact, if anything it may mean that I have a slightly better understanding of where this server has come from. Either that or it implies that my life is less focused on this game than yours. I will take either situation. So, I would appreciate it if the condescension were left at the door in thread focused on something important.

Oh, I would also like to point out that demanding Dev attention does not magically make it so. They tend to sit back and let the community discuss and glean information/opinions from them before committing to something that is minor compared to the metric shitton of other things they are working on for this free server.
 
Diodimus said:
This is where you talked about mobs being hard. I made a comment about how at ALL tiers that bows DROP, they come from hard mobs. Seeing as this is a discussion about bow progression, it was a legitimate comment.



There are several things in which i want to address from this. Never did I imply you said anything dropping from a TRASH mob. I said early mob. My bad for saying mob instead of named. This is meant to address your comment about an EASY tier 9 mob.

Second, I would like to point out that I never claimed a bow from every tier. There are several tiers in which a ranger uses the same bow. Hell, I have been using Swiftshot since I started raiding.

Lastly, I would like to address your arrogance. Just because I have decided to enjoy ALL content of the server as well as enjoying the company of my guildmates as well as having a life does not mean that I know less than you. Just because I am in a lower tier and have not leached onto a guild that was GROSSLY higher tier than me as soon as possible does not mean that I know less than you. In fact, if anything it may mean that I have a slightly better understanding of where this server has come from. Either that or it implies that my life is less focused on this game than yours. I will take either situation. So, I would appreciate it if the condescension were left at the door in thread focused on something important.

Oh, I would also like to point out that demanding Dev attention does not magically make it so. They tend to sit back and let the community discuss and glean information/opinions from them before committing to something that is minor compared to the metric shitton of other things they are working on for this free server.
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Unfortunately you do not bring anything to the table as far as my question goes. My tone may sound condescending but I do not feel lightly being argued about this issue as you obviously do not know much as far as Bow Progression beyond T7 goes.

You are right, I did focus the game as one of my main hobbies in the past few months, but that does not discredit my arguments I might think. The fact that I can push buttons and you cannot is simply a fact.
Implying that I did not enjoy the content of the game as much as you did by the way, shows as much condescension as I would ever show. I would suggest you STFU and keep the issue to people that knows what they are talking about at this point. You are right, I lost my whole life to SoD but I adress relatively decent issues. :)

As far as you wielding Swiftshot, I have yet to know what that bring to the table as far as Bow progression is concerned, did you imply your guild can't clutch a zone in terms of content ?

Anyways... Please leave this adressed to Zae. Really at this point I want a Dev opinion. It sounds like a complicated issue to you, as your goal seems like picturing me like an elitist prick...

Regards
 
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from an itemization point of view, bow suck just about as much as daggers. although most melee classes can use them, they typically have worse meleeing stats than most range items out there.

I think guilds would qq just as hard if there were too many bows out there shitting up their drops. It's like how I feel when I see tank loot drop.
 
Zaela said:
edit: welp my first stab at a ratio-based backstab formula ended up being almost perfect. Gonna talk to the other devs about this for sure!
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:) since your changing things you should totally change the thing where any amount of slow cripples a rogues dps due to the wonky way backstab works or something you know that would own.
 
Heres an idea that might save time maybe. I hate to see quest item turn useless :(. If there still isn't anything planned to happen for the Type 4 Aug for this year or the next, make a turn-in for Swiftshot to be made into a Type 4 Aug. Why? Because I think every ranger should do the Swiftshot quest ^^. Drop stats on other lower tier bows to a reasonable amount. Tier 7+ Bows would prob work well with this.

Example:
Swiftshot, Gem of the Avenger
Fury of the Avenger
Archery +5%
Str +7 Sta +5 Dex +7 HP +85 MP +85
Crit +2%

The Swiftshot is the only bow I can think of with a worn effect. Let me know if there is another. We lose a must wear clicky slot and two worn effect slots with bow and arrow equiped. Bows tend to be around 50-80 HP less than other range items on their tier. Bows also do not get Stun Resists, Mind Shield, etc.
 
ieatrice said:
Heres an idea that might save time maybe. I hate to see quest item turn useless :(. If there still isn't anything planned to happen for the Type 4 Aug for this year or the next, make a turn-in for Swiftshot to be made into a Type 4 Aug. Why? Because I think every ranger should do the Swiftshot quest ^^. Drop stats on other lower tier bows to a reasonable amount. Tier 7+ Bows would prob work well with this.

Example:
Swiftshot, Gem of the Avenger
Fury of the Avenger
Archery +5%
Str +7 Sta +5 Dex +7 HP +85 MP +85
Crit +2%

The Swiftshot is the only bow I can think of with a worn effect. Let me know if there is another. We lose a must wear clicky slot and two worn effect slots with bow and arrow equiped. Bows tend to be around 50-80 HP less than other range items on their tier. Bows also do not get Stun Resists, Mind Shield, etc.
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The idea is not totally bad but i doubt we will be seeing another AUG with +archery.

The reasons are somewhat obvious. Having another +archery anywhere in game would really make some other ranger items obsolete... or ranger archery cap too easy to achieve.
 
Zaela said:
Haven't read much of this, but!

The stat difference between bows and non-weapon ranges seems fairly arbitrary. I guess it's based on a "weapons have lower stats than non-weapons, and bows are weapons" kind of logic. But, I think making bow stats on-par with ranges would have some nice beneficial consequences (other than flooding the tiers with more range options, which isn't so bad). I'll talk it over with the other devs. Wouldn't mind conglomerating more future bows and ranges for less rots.

As far as daggers go, I've been thinking about making backstab damage based on ratio rather than damage and rejiggering daggers to have on-tier ratios, and rot less. But making a good formula that doesn't change backstab damage from where it is too much is the hard part.

edit: welp my first stab at a ratio-based backstab formula ended up being almost perfect. Gonna talk to the other devs about this for sure!
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Yeah...about the dagger/backstab change thing.....





Absolutely wonderful! The only problem at all with the patch-over at all was Woldaff banning me and jackin-up my platinum donator status =\

But A+ Zaela, truly A+ awesome idea, and masterfully executed, this could quite possibly be the sweetest shit ever <3
 
I do find it interesting that a thread focused on bow progression leads to a revamp of rogue backstab.
 
Uh..

Monk flying kick, it should deal a multiple of the monk's boot AC multiplied by the damage (I.E. 4 cold damage on boot) as a base.

Kthx.
 
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