Druids, Frank and you?

Manguadi said:
We use two bards and two shamans by design, two clerics, and one druid. We originally planned to use two warriors full-time but like you said you work with what you've got. I can't think of a class you can't benefit from stacking, including druids.

Druids can be different healers without being categorically worse healers, and as long as druid dps remains considerably below both clerics and shaman (and all three tanks) I don't think they can be considered viable dps. Also there's a big difference between worthless and bad stop exaggerating for effect.
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Yes I was exagerating for argument's sake, but what do you propose to make druids better? Do they need better dps, heals or utility? I feel like their heals are actually OK where they are and if anything they need more in the utility department, of course more dps (in the form of something that doesn't instantly die to AE's etc.) would be a good start as well.

Also, the DPS issue seems more like an issue of clerics being overpowered at the high end due to their bonus haste and unresistable procs. Besides, druids can melee and use divine rage too, and there are some nice proccing priest weapons out there. Could give some overhaste/proc to the highest level self only Damage Shield buff for druids, that might even the DPS playing field a bit.
 
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Have you not been reading the entire thread? He has made several suggestions as well as other people. READ PLX!
 
I outline like several points where druids are obviously too inferior in their healing power. Miffane if you don't have a constructive point to make with some concrete examples then don't post in this thread.
 
A lot of the problems with druids dont boil down to the fact that we're inferior to clerics, thats acceptable. The major problem is that druid healing is just insufficient. Its not enough. I'm not asking to heal AS WELL as a cleric, but if I'm the same tier as a cleric and I play absolutely perfectly, there should be no reason I can't do the same 6man content. As it is a shitty cleric can just keep group hot running, heal the main tank and sit there with a thumb up his ass and win. A druid has to time their group heals, make sure that timing doesn't kill the main tank, get the main tank back to full and then try healing their group again without allowing the tank to die.

Oh, and druids have to do all that with WEAKER and LESS EFFICIENT heals. With a little tweaking of numbers, you can make druid healing more efficient at the least to bring us into viability in 6man content. Our mana only goes about 2/3-3/4 as far as clerics does right now, and I won't even try to compare to shaman mana.
 
Anhala329 said:
Have you not been reading the entire thread? He has made several suggestions as well as other people. READ PLX!
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He made one or two suggestions like,
Manguadi said:
Druids are terrible. I think making their fancy new pet cast heals instead of being dps would be a good step.
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but mostly just general comments, or why for example short duration buffs are not the way to go. I was simply asking if he had any more specific ideas to improve the power of druids. Since...
Manguadi said:
I agree that frank is good and cascading vim is also pretty good, but they don't improve the power of a druid, they just improve the utility. That's just not enough for druids as they stand.
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I was wondering exactly what would be enough? I was simply asking a question you don't have to get so bent out of shape over it :dumbsad:

metvayne1 said:
I outline like several points where druids are obviously too inferior in their healing power. Miffane if you don't have a constructive point to make with some concrete examples then don't post in this thread.
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Well im sorry for offending you by simply giving my opinion. Also, if you read my last post I gave a concrete solution, you know a constructive one, regarding a way to boost druid dps. But, if you want me to stop posting ideas on ways to improve your class thats cool too.
 
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Miffy said:
Well im sorry for offending you by simply giving my opinion. Also, if you read my last post I gave a concrete solution, you know a constructive one, regarding a way to boost druid dps. But, if you want me to stop posting ideas on ways to improve your class thats cool too.
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Druid dps? Since when do you invite a priest to your group to fill a dps role to begin with? C'mon man.
 
This thread really isn't about druid dps at all, so I don't know why even bring it up.

Anyway I really hope the dev's look into this to make druids more viable for harder 6 mans and raids, the problem isn't there big heals or quick heals, not even there slow group heals ( just need better planning and timing then clerics ), but definitely the lack of HoTing that does so much in so many instances. Solutions? I don't know, I really like mang's idea about a long duration HoT, maybe make it group only, small range pbaoe, snare effect like the shaman one and call it healing entanglement or whatever, oh and don't rape the mana cost to much.
 
Miffy said:
Yes I was exagerating for argument's sake, but what do you propose to make druids better? Do they need better dps, heals or utility? I feel like their heals are actually OK where they are and if anything they need more in the utility department, of course more dps (in the form of something that doesn't instantly die to AE's etc.) would be a good start as well.

Also, the DPS issue seems more like an issue of clerics being overpowered at the high end due to their bonus haste and unresistable procs. Besides, druids can melee and use divine rage too, and there are some nice proccing priest weapons out there. Could give some overhaste/proc to the highest level self only Damage Shield buff for druids, that might even the DPS playing field a bit.
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Wow your stupidity amazes me. Druids ds isnt going to do jack shit on raids and 6mans (which is why we are saying druids "need some lovin)
Adding overhaste/proc isnt going to accomplish anything,

Druids in reg groups are great. But when you get to hard stuff their awesomeness ends there. Dont sit and talk to TU members about high procing weapons, we are not stupid. We have the best weapons that we can equip. My laerak has proced for 4.5k+ at times.(and procs fairly often.)


Dont post about a topic you obviously know nothing about. You are just pissing the people who know what they are talking about off and making yourself look dumb.
Clerics are overpowered because they are healers and like Mang said a few post back: ghots are stupid ridiculous amazing in 6man zones.
And their dps is good cause it doesn't cost them any mana to do it. Druids can kick out WAY more dps then clerics if they try but they are gonna use a fair amount of mana to do it.

Now to say something on topic. In meilc lastnight, i got a true feel for "franks" true lameness. I landed a crit heal on him for about 3546. Meaning he has like 3.6khps base. In raids/6mans sometimes all it takes is 1-2 nukes and they are gone. Not to mention any ds that may be on the mob. While "frank" procs for 450-500ish, its not really worth it to use him cause he dies so fricken fast.
 
That's the final straw. I've had it with personal attacks in this forum.

If any more personal attacks are launched in this forum, you'll suffer a 7 day ban. If when that's lifted you do it again, I'll get creative.
 
Miffy said:
Also, the DPS issue seems more like an issue of clerics being overpowered at the high end due to their bonus haste and unresistable procs. Besides, druids can melee and use divine rage too, and there are some nice proccing priest weapons out there. Could give some overhaste/proc to the highest level self only Damage Shield buff for druids, that might even the DPS playing field a bit.
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This is not a terrible idea, but I'd rather see it go under a separate spell. A continuation of the firefist line for example, which has one spell in it. Also to hopefully mitigate stacking issues.

Though I don't think this would fix things really, it would however be a step in the right direction.

Also, the pets hp seems pretty low. No shamanlike aa for raising it on druids.
 
Marchie said:
This thread really isn't about druid dps at all, so I don't know why even bring it up.

Anyway I really hope the dev's look into this to make druids more viable for harder 6 mans and raids, the problem isn't there big heals or quick heals, not even there slow group heals ( just need better planning and timing then clerics ), but definitely the lack of HoTing that does so much in so many instances. Solutions? I don't know, I really like mang's idea about a long duration HoT, maybe make it group only, small range pbaoe, snare effect like the shaman one and call it healing entanglement or whatever, oh and don't rape the mana cost to much.
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So, maybe cascading vim could be changed to a smaller but extra long lasting (like 1 min+) GHoT spell? This would give some extra room for error on timing group heals and just give a general more HP healed per second factor to druids.

The only thing that bothers me about the whole "Druids not good enough for 6 man" problem is that neither are shamans. Are we going to be expecting shamans to be solo healers on top end 6 man content next? In fact it seems that the real issue with 6 man content is that it often requires a very specific group make up and so naturally when you are choosing 6 classes out of 15 you want the best healer, which is the cleric. Other classes, in my experience, are just as undesirable in hard 6 man content. Maybe the only way around this is to design new 6 man content with druids in mind, but as has already been stated this is difficult if not impossible because druids don't bring anything especially exciting to the table aside from second best heals and mediocre dps. Therefore, the best solution I see is going to be giving druids some sort of unique utility, in the form of group buff or powerful debuff and then designing encounters to fit.
 
Exactly what 6 man content do you think shamans have no role in because afaik they are arguably the best single target healer over a prolonged fight and almost every 6 man boss is affected by slow not to mention numerous ones needing a second dedicated healer on the tank or benefiting heavily from niklothar/cure. You should really stop speaking from experience you apparently don't have.
 
Miffy said:
So, maybe cascading vim could be changed to a smaller but extra long lasting (like 1 min+) GHoT spell? This would give some extra room for error on timing group heals and just give a general more HP healed per second factor to druids.

The only thing that bothers me about the whole "Druids not good enough for 6 man" problem is that neither are shamans.
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I really like your idea but I think druids are bad enough before ikisith that they should really get it, well, before ikisith.

Also Shaman are good enough (read: necessary) for most six man encounters. Shaman also solo heal xp groups better than druids. What works for shaman is that they have different strengths that a cleric doesn't have.
 
Correct, and druids do not have these strengths that the other priests don't have. The novelty they may have when compared to other priests they lose once you hit 65.
 
Ok, so I guess I misinterpreted what people were asking for then. If whats being said is, "Druids should be just as desireable as a second healer/dps/utility on 6 mans as shamans" then I definitely agree. What I was saying is that you will never roll into a 6 man with a shaman Primary healer, and I thought people wanted druids to be replacing clerics role in 6 man.

It seems then, what we need to figure out is: How can druids be altered to have a strength where the other two priests have a weakness?
 
Miffane please stop adding DPS into every one of your arguments. Its a useless addition of three letters that druids do horribly. But I do think you're right about druids needing a strength that can make them comparable to clerics, but not in the same way clerics are powerful.

An idea I've thought about a bit is instead of a HoT, have some kind of reactive healing spell. Kind of like a reverse damage shield you cast on the mob, or as a buff you cast on the tank. When the mob attacks, or the tank is struck, it heals for XX amount, effected by AAs and Focii of the person who cast it. Whether it should stay for XX amount of hits or a certain amount of ticks, and how much it should heal for each time, that isn't my call. It shouldn't replace single target heals in 6man situations, but it should make it far far less stressful to group heal as a druid if we cast this on the tank first. Also, when I cast it I shouldn't go WHERE THE FUCK DID ALL MY MANA DISAPPEAR TO like I would with cascading vim. I'm thinking about the same cost as relic heal, maybe 5% more.

A fun alternative is a fast casting group heal, 1.5x cast time of ancient quick heal, same base, 2x mana cost. Is it big enough to keep groups alive with? Not in most fights, but it lets us hit them with a quick little burst of HP and then get them with a real group heal.

Another alternative is to make the druid class AA Exodus into the AA Replenishment. It would have a (36 minute? Devs decide) refresh and make our next group heal cast instant. Wouldn't make us overpowered due to the refresh time, but would give us a chance to get a group heal off and get back to the tank quickly if the intensity of the situation calls for it.

These may or may not be good ideas, they are just what I've come up with in the last five minutes or so, but at least they're constructive and are taking the conversation somewhere.
 
Well, honestly i think they need to decide to make the druids the best group healers, shaman are easily the best single target healers and up til about 50 druids get group heals the exact same time as clerics so why not make us the best group healers.

Clerics still have their hots and all around healers but for content that needs better group healing a druid would be the better way to go as its usually our role in raids in the first place and would give druids a use in 6 man content where they could be used on ae heavy fights.
 
its the fact that we feel useless in every aspect when you get up there, there is nothing we can do better than any other class end game. Druids are completely replaceable in raids, there is no need on any content to ever take a druid.
i literally quit my druid because at equal gear level any cleric could out-heal me twice over and not break a sweat.

its not fun to play a class when at the end game you are regulated to an extra healer because they have max clerics and for 1 debuff and 1 buff of marginal usefulness.

I agree that enchanters have issues as well but this is not the thread for that, this is a thread about druid issues in raiding and 6 man content.
 
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