Druid Pet vs Beastlord pets 54-58

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excuseme

Dalayan Beginner
Hopefully this is the right place for this post.

I've spent a lot of time leveling as a duo with a druid who is around my level (neither of us was ever more than 2 levels ahead/behind). One thing we witnessed on multiple occasions was that the druid's pet, buffed with druid buffs (including Savage Spirit) and whatever beastlord buffs I could give it, would *consistently* take aggro away from my pet (with my pet buffed with all my puffs, including the highest pet haste buff and pet proc buff I had, and also the druid's buffs). This happened with the druid pet vs. my 54, 56, and 58 pets, when we sent them after a mob (either at the same time, or even when I sent my pet first to let it try to get aggro). I always had taunting on (it's actually in my pet attack macro). We've even seen it with the druid pet vs. my level 60 pet, but usually only if the druid pet hit first. In the mid- to late-50's, it wasn't much of an issue (mostly just insulting), but now that my pet probably has almost double the HP of her pet, we obviously want mine tanking.

The big picture of this, IMO, is that by giving the druid such a powerful pet, they are, at level 55, a better pet class than an equally-geared beastlord from level 55-59. And of course, druids can also heal their pet better (heal aggro? thats ok, snare, root) and buff their pet better (DS). Their DoTs and DD help them out all the time, but in addition to their pet, it's quite a powerful package. And of course, if things go sour, there's always gate. Need to try a different area? Teleport.

In summary:
In light of everything druids can already do, strengthening their pet spell as much as it was strengthened gives them a period of around 5 levels where they positively overpower a beastlord, as a pet class. I'd like to suggest that this be looked at with the goal of weakening the pet of a class that can already charm much more powerful monsters.
 
Druid pets have very low hp and although their damage is okay, its nothing special. The druid you were grouping with might have had /pettaunt on. If his pet was taunting the mob that would explain why it kept taking aggro. Another reason that druids pets arent as good as beastlords is because druids, first of all, cant melee even remotely close to a beastlord. Secondly, even if they could melee half-decently, they would be taking all the damage since they dont have a style which allows their pet to take damage over themselves. I personally dont see a problem with the druid pet. Its a very weak hitting pet (hits for 50-60s max and doubles I think?) and it has like 1500 hp or so. It is very very weak and isnt really effective unless you are grouping. Also, although the druid has superior heals, its not really effective to use your pet as a tank. Its more effective if the druid were to simply dot rot the mob or just nuke it down. Regardless, I am willing to bet that your pet outdamages the druid pet by probably 2x as much damage. If you keep having this problem though, maybe do some parsing to see what the damage difference is between the two pets and bring it back here.
 
I've grouped with a warrior and druid pretty consistently with my beastlord, and I've done some parses. The druid pet has been doing about 30-35 dps and the beastlord pet (lvl 56) is doing 35-40 dps, including proc and haste. The druid pet is, to my knowledge, unbuffed in any way. The beastlord pet has companion strength 5; the druid pet has no companion strength.

While at the high end the pet may be a piece of crap, at the level the druid gets it, it is a real killer.
 
I agree. when you first get the pet its great but at 65 its basically useless for tanking and becomes just a decent "dot"
 
rab said:
...While at the high end the pet may be a piece of crap, at the level the druid gets it, it is a real killer.
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This is exactly what I'm saying.

Also, to one of the posters above, why should the druid's pet with taunt on consistently take aggro away from my pet with taunting on, even if my pet hit first? And this was with my 54, 56, and 58 pet.

I originally thought I was in good shape, as a package, in the mid-50's. But duoing with this druid from the time she got her pet, up until I got to 60 made me feel pretty poorly about my situation, as compared to her. And I did have the Starfall Companion Strength 3 item for the whole time, too. *Maybe* since the level of the druid's pet got buffed, Savage Spirit is now overpowered? Savage Spirit: Increase attack speed from 64-70%, increase str by 42-45, increast AC from 52 to 55. That pet, with this buff and the other druid buffs = monster pet.

Think of it this way: With my 54, 56, or 58 pet, could I ever expect that my pet could beat a druid's pet in a duel, with both pets fully buffed by their owners? With or without being able to heal them... No way.

Why should a druid, who is already a well-rounded, powerful, and versatile class, get a pet that rivals a beastlord's 54 pet in terms of damage, hp, and taunting, rivals the 56 pet in terms of damage and taunting, and rivals the 58 pet in terms of taunting? That I can recall, beastlords haven't had any spell of theirs enhanced to rival or exceed a druid's comparable spell around level 55. I could cetainly think of a DoT, cold-based nuke, or healing spell that beastlords could benefit from.
 
While you've got a good case, I really doubt that the druid's pet has more HP than yours. For that very reasons, you'd probably win in a "duel" between pets (btw I think you can arrange this, you might try!) I'd be interested to see just how much hp each has (this is possible, just take the two of you to the arena, push them down to 10% hp, and have the druid heal.).
 
Druid pets really arent much of a threat. I really think that they just have uber agro because Ill do 115 dps in fights and when im duoing with my druid the pet will still pull agro for a few seconds here and there. I think they are just good little taunters. Maybe too good.
 
It doesnt matter if your pet is taunting as well, if the druid pet has a successful taunt it will pull aggro no matter what. The taunt skill (atleast for pcs, im not sure about pets) gives you equal aggro to the top person on the mobs hate list + 1. So in essence when the druid pet would taunt, it would add one more hate to the mobs list than your pet, thus having the mob turn to it.

Also druids do get pet haste, and they can cast strength and other buffs on their pets as well. So the druid's pet might have been buffed in rabbs case. But it might not have been.
 
Allielyn said:
While you've got a good case, I really doubt that the druid's pet has more HP than yours. For that very reasons, you'd probably win in a "duel" between pets (btw I think you can arrange this, you might try!) I'd be interested to see just how much hp each has (this is possible, just take the two of you to the arena, push them down to 10% hp, and have the druid heal.).
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Sure the 56 and up bst pets have more HP. But the bst pet would lose this duel due to druid DS on the druid's pet.

And Jinxat, I understand the whole +1 thing with taunt. But the druid pet consistently got aggro, over and over, and so essentially kept it, as if its taunting ability was just alot higher than the bst's pet's.
 
This duel argument doesn't make sense, IMHO. The aim is to balance pets and their masters, simply pitching one pet against the other and watching them fight doesn't do justice to how the game plays. I find this discussion interesting but let's not hide the forest behind the tree.
 
The pets against each other doesn't matter, because we're talking about against mobs. I think for the few levels that druids get a decent pet is pretty good, compared to them having them as more crappy pets in the high end game is a decent trade off. I wouldn't worry about a few levels.
 
Raherin said:
The pets against each other doesn't matter, because we're talking about against mobs. I think for the few levels that druids get a decent pet is pretty good, compared to them having them as more crappy pets in the high end game is a decent trade off. I wouldn't worry about a few levels.
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So I would propose that we take a spell that beastlords get somewhere between level 55-59, and beef it up suc that it is equal to (or slightly better than) a druid counterpart. Then we could apply similar reasoning - for a few levels it would be pretty good (whether it be a nuke, DoT, or a heal), but eventually, it would pale in comparison to the nuke/DoT/heal that druids will get later on, as upgrades. A decent trade off, as well?

This example is designed to highlight the underlying theme in the original post - yes, I understand that eventually, the beastlord will get pets that are much more powerful than the 55 druid spell. But that does not take away from the point that for a few levels, the druid somehow becomes the owner of a pet that is better than *a few* beastlord pets. It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
The level 55 druid pet: equal stats, and less hps then the level 54 beastlord pet. Over 1k, to be more specific. Every other attribute is quite close. The 56 beastlord pet is slightly better better (keep in mind there is still one level difference). The level 58 on the pet is better, much better in everyway.

I still don't see this as that bad a situation. Two levels of having equal pets - mind you the druid's pet still has alot less hps. I would consider the beastlord pet to be better just because of that.
 
Thanks for checking up on that. While I never suspected that the druid pet would have *more* hp than the 56 or 58 bst pet, it's the way it consistantly out-taunted the bst pet that initially got me thinking. And that's when it dawned on me: the 55 druid pet *is* the better pet, when taken in the context of the "team" of pet and master. The druid pet will have Savage Spirit, and a DS, and the druid can chain heal it (while keeping the mob rooted/snared to avoid healing aggro).

I just don't understand why it should be ok for a druid to have any range of levels during which they can summon their own pet (for less mana, I believe), and then use it to tank, and, combined with all of the spells at their disposal, do a better job than a *pet* class like a beastlord. Like you and others pointed out - it's not as much about "pet vs. pet" as it is about the "package".

Some alternatives might be to increase the cost of the spell, or decrease the potency of Savage Spirit, or maybe even transform the Nature Walker's Behest spell into something like the summoning of a woodland creature that works like a wizard's familiar. This way, if a druid wants a powerful pet, they can continue to just charm animals.
 
Yes, even with buffs, the druid's pet is not better, as the beastlord pet tanks better because of hps, and AC, and the pet proc -should- help it keep decent agro. If the druid chain heals, they'll lose agro.

The taunt thing happens with any pet. If the mob is engaged by NPCs (pets) and no players and one of the pets taunt successfully they'll take agro. That would be the bug, but other than that I don't think beastlord pets need anything right now.
do a better job than a *pet* class like a beastlord.
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No, they don't do a better job. The beastlord pet tanks better, it's just the taunt that's messing with things.



Honestly, Druid's getting an equal pet for two levels isn't that bad.
 
Considering that Beastlords have Slows, DoTs, Nukes, Haste, Stat buffs, Stacking Mana/HP regen, Stacking HP/Atk and DD increasing/Hate reducing buffs in their "package", maybe we should lay off the druid pet a bit. Heck looking at the total beastlord package maybe the druid pet should be beefed up a bit to get the druid package more in balance. :hug:

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the Pet Procs (very nice) and the whole dual wield Melee dmg with mnk fist dmg/dly ratio thing either.
 
Tempus said:
Considering that Beastlords have Slows, DoTs, Nukes, Haste, Stat buffs, Stacking Mana/HP regen, Stacking HP/Atk and DD increasing/Hate reducing buffs in their "package", maybe we should lay off the druid pet a bit. Heck looking at the total beastlord package maybe the druid pet should be beefed up a bit to get the druid package more in balance. :hug:

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the Pet Procs (very nice) and the whole dual wield Melee dmg with mnk fist dmg/dly ratio thing either.
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Druids also have: DoTs, Nukes, Pet Haste, Stat Buffs, Stacking Mana/HP Regen. And most of that they do better than a beastlord.

Ask Rab, who has grouped with a druid and its pet, if the beastlord package is equal to the druid package from 55-59.

And I was never saying that the beastlord pet needed anything, I was just implying that the druid pet (in conjunction with everything the druid can *do* to it/for it) needs looking at. In an earlier post I questioned whether it would be comparable to give the beastlord a spell that allowed it to rival a druid of the same level, so long as the druid would eventually get upgrades that far surpassed it. But that was more to reverse the perspective, so that it might be apparent that the druid+pet combo from 55-59 is more powerful than the beastlord+pet combo from 55-59.

But it's not looking like I convinced anyone! :D

Oh, well, at least we had a nice discussion! And for that I am grateful.
 
Well, I was under the impression the topic was about druid pets vs beastlord pets. And now it seems like a class discussion (druid vs beastlords) rather than a pet discussion. ;p
 
excuseme said:
Tempus said:
Considering that Beastlords have Slows, DoTs, Nukes, Haste, Stat buffs, Stacking Mana/HP regen, Stacking HP/Atk and DD increasing/Hate reducing buffs in their "package", maybe we should lay off the druid pet a bit. Heck looking at the total beastlord package maybe the druid pet should be beefed up a bit to get the druid package more in balance. :hug:

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the Pet Procs (very nice) and the whole dual wield Melee dmg with mnk fist dmg/dly ratio thing either.
Click to expand...

Druids also have: DoTs, Nukes, Pet Haste, Stat Buffs, Stacking Mana/HP Regen. And most of that they do better than a beastlord.

Ask Rab, who has grouped with a druid and its pet, if the beastlord package is equal to the druid package from 55-59.

And I was never saying that the beastlord pet needed anything, I was just implying that the druid pet (in conjunction with everything the druid can *do* to it/for it) needs looking at. In an earlier post I questioned whether it would be comparable to give the beastlord a spell that allowed it to rival a druid of the same level, so long as the druid would eventually get upgrades that far surpassed it. But that was more to reverse the perspective, so that it might be apparent that the druid+pet combo from 55-59 is more powerful than the beastlord+pet combo from 55-59.

But it's not looking like I convinced anyone! :D

Oh, well, at least we had a nice discussion! And for that I am grateful.
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The point is even in a pet to pet comparison the Beastlord pet is better if only due to it having more HP's and AC as Raherin clearly stated.

You can't qualify it by trying to bring in what a druid can cast vs. what a Beastlord can cast. Since they have wildly different spells in the arsenals. If you feel there is a class imbalance then make a thread about that and we can discuss it, but I don't think you are going to make any headway. The classes each have and fufill their own unique rolls.
 
Ever since my first post I've been stressing that the druid has no business having such a powerful pet, *combined* with everything they can already do to that pet, along with their existing PvE arsenal. So yes, it's about balance.

But guess what? I got my ass chewed by Wiz when my exact first post was put into the balancing thread. He called it a suggestion, so I moved it here.

And like the title of the thread said, it did have to do with the one pet vs. the other, because the druid pet was consistently out-taunting the beastlord pet.

Some of you might not understand what I'm trying to state in this whole thread, and some of you might be more interested in picking apart they way I have attempted to present my arguments here rather than consider what I'm saying.

So without trying to label anything, let me just make one final statement, and the powers that be can come to a consensus, if they are at all interested, about what hoops they want me to jump through on these forums to present it:

The druid's level 55 pet spell, Nature Walker's Behest, gives them a pet which, when combined with the buffs they can place on it, and when combined with all of the other things a druid can do in a PvE situation, makes them positively more powerful than a beastlord (with its pet, etc) from 55-59. I am specifically referring to the scenario whereby Joe Druid casts his pet, and then buffs it and himself, and then proceeds to hunt mobs with the pet, vs Joe Beastlord, who also summons his pet, buffs it and himself, and then proceeds to hunt. Because the beastlord is a pet class, and the druid isn't, I feel that this could use some looking at.
 
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