Damage over Time idea.
- Thread starter Snake
- Start date
The design choice was made on EQ life, where they have now changed dots significantly since then.
I like the SoD/old EQ system, it just needs this minor tweek, to be more viable in short fights, mana wise. It wont do any more damage, what so ever. It will still suck in short fights, the caster just wont be taxed as hard mana wise, if the dot doesnt deliver its full payload.
EQ Life now has some short duration dots, that you can keep up 3 of max.
This is one way to adress the issue I guess, but then its more or less a redesign of the whole system. Thats NOT what I'm suggesting.
Just tax the caster less mana, on dot's that doesn't go full cycle.
I like the SoD/old EQ system, it just needs this minor tweek, to be more viable in short fights, mana wise. It wont do any more damage, what so ever. It will still suck in short fights, the caster just wont be taxed as hard mana wise, if the dot doesnt deliver its full payload.
EQ Life now has some short duration dots, that you can keep up 3 of max.
This is one way to adress the issue I guess, but then its more or less a redesign of the whole system. Thats NOT what I'm suggesting.
Just tax the caster less mana, on dot's that doesn't go full cycle.
Oh man...
Latten suggests we close the whole 'Suggestion and Request' section, replace it with "If you don't like your class, chose an other one.".
Here is my suggestion, don't read this forum at all, if that is your general opinion.
If the case is that you just don't like me, then just don't read my posts. You can even ignore me, I did this with Binsin, best thing ever.
I might do it with you too, so far all your comments are just pure salt
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darksabbath
Dalayan Master
You have displayed more salt and shitted up your own thread more than all other people who have posted in it. Pot, meet kettle. This thread is likely headed for the trash, to meet your other threads.Latten suggests we close the whole 'Suggestion and Request' section, replace it with "If you don't like your class, chose an other one.".
Here is my suggestion, don't read this forum at all, if that is your general opinion.
If the case is that you just don't like me, then just don't read my posts. You can even ignore me, I did this with Binsin, best thing ever.
I might do it with you too, so far all your comments are just pure salt
Dot clipping has existed since the game's inception. It is the risk you take for dealing damage over time. You don't see clerics or druids here asking to change hots into burst on demand or refunded mana variants in case the person hits full health before the spell wears off. So why should a dot caster get that option? It just doesn't sound remotely worth the effort to code it up.
So you too agree that if you think your class is not well balanced in some way, and you come here in the 'Suggestion and Request' section, requesting a change, and suggesting how and why, well then you should just not do that, and go start an other class?
Also if your idea is getting missunderstood, like "Necro's are not wizards!". in an idea that has nothing to do with burst dps, or what ever aspect of necro becomming a wizard is misunderstood (its not even about necro's, its about dots), you explain your self; that is shitting on the thread, that should get deleted at once?
The thing here is, what should be deleted, is all the posts about behaviour. Like this one, and yours. Leaving the thread with just on topic posts, based on fact. Oppinions are ok too, but still its annoying when people just say "I dont like it" or "Why do you want to be a wizard?", when its clear that the thread was never read for the "Suggestion and Request" but only for the back and foward of "Your so dumb, all your posts show it, just dont post" ect.
Come with some numbers like Nwaij did, thats cool, although they were mostly wrong, but still, thats on the path of creating or doing factual debating.
Come up with well thought problems, like "well how do you deal with AE dots?" or "When is it a dot, and when is it debuff?".
Or even run some tests "Ok so I did an exp group, and just chain casting dots in the order of highest DPS, on the tanks target, I ended up getting X damage from Y mana, this seems fine to me"...
Just saying "Man your a shitter, I hope this get deleted", its really just sad.
Go and try and understand the math instead, critique it with solid arguments, now that would be cool.
Also if your idea is getting missunderstood, like "Necro's are not wizards!". in an idea that has nothing to do with burst dps, or what ever aspect of necro becomming a wizard is misunderstood (its not even about necro's, its about dots), you explain your self; that is shitting on the thread, that should get deleted at once?
The thing here is, what should be deleted, is all the posts about behaviour. Like this one, and yours. Leaving the thread with just on topic posts, based on fact. Oppinions are ok too, but still its annoying when people just say "I dont like it" or "Why do you want to be a wizard?", when its clear that the thread was never read for the "Suggestion and Request" but only for the back and foward of "Your so dumb, all your posts show it, just dont post" ect.
Come with some numbers like Nwaij did, thats cool, although they were mostly wrong, but still, thats on the path of creating or doing factual debating.
Come up with well thought problems, like "well how do you deal with AE dots?" or "When is it a dot, and when is it debuff?".
Or even run some tests "Ok so I did an exp group, and just chain casting dots in the order of highest DPS, on the tanks target, I ended up getting X damage from Y mana, this seems fine to me"...
Just saying "Man your a shitter, I hope this get deleted", its really just sad.
Go and try and understand the math instead, critique it with solid arguments, now that would be cool.
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darksabbath
Dalayan Master
Way to ignore my counter argument about HoTs and instead focus on the shitty thread discussion. I guess you ignored it because you have no logical response to it. Look, my main class (Bst) uses dots. My main healer (druid) uses dots. My main tank (sk) uses dots, sometimes. (We'll ignore the bard "dots" for now, because bards are special enough.) I generally gauge how quickly things are dying before I try casting/recasting any dots. I just don't see the value of all the work it will take to recode all these dot spells across all the classes so you can gain 2dps on your parse.
darksabbath
Dalayan Master
Don't be throwing logic into the mix, you will surely break something. It took us months to get parts the last time
Re code you say.
If I was to code this, I wouldn't recode anything, I would add to existing mechanics.
Not sure what the coding for dots look like, but I immagine thats it does 3 things when cast.
It figures out how much mana the caster is to lose, and then it finds out how many targets are affected, and then it applies dots to these targets.
So in the mana cost part, it happens same as usual, but then I would collect the amount of mana the spell ended up costing, lets call it MANA.
Right after the dot is cast, I then apply a procedure to add MANA*0.8 to the casters mana pool.
Now comes the tricky part, adding the mana cost to the dot tics.
I'm assuming it first finds the target(s), so we need a variable for that, how many targets will be hit, lets call it TARGETS.
Then we need to know how many tics are delivered pr targets, lets call it TICKS.
Finally we need to add a parameter to each tick on each dot, how much mana the caster is to be taxed.
This will be, (MANA*0.8)/TARGETS/TICKS = TAX.
So now each time a dot does a tick, it will do its damage, and what ever else it usually does, but now it also makes the casters lose TAX mana.
I have no idea if this method will work with the way its actually coded, but thats what I invision.
I'm also not sure how hard these data are to get, if they are already available in current procedure calls or not. If they arent, well then its potentially a major problem; I would be supriced if its the case though.
Finally I don't know how hard/possible it is to add a factor to each dot, that the caster needs to lose X mana pr. tick.
Also my "analyses" that this will not make dot class' over powered, is based on my knowledge of Necromancer and Shaman dot's.
If for example Bards have a "dot" that starts by doing 99% of its damage as a DD, and then it has 3 tics of virtually 0 damage; and the bard can reapply this dot so fast that it never tics, or max tics 1 time...
Well that would be a major problem, because then the bard would only pay as low as 20% of the casting cost, and still get the same damage...
To my knowledge there is no such dot...
I think the closest thing is the necro R2, doing 600 DD damage on cast.
If the necro was to chain cast this monster, he would get a DD of 600 damage, for 204 base mana, pr cast, cast time 5.5 seconds as I recall. Not even usable.
If I was to code this, I wouldn't recode anything, I would add to existing mechanics.
Not sure what the coding for dots look like, but I immagine thats it does 3 things when cast.
It figures out how much mana the caster is to lose, and then it finds out how many targets are affected, and then it applies dots to these targets.
So in the mana cost part, it happens same as usual, but then I would collect the amount of mana the spell ended up costing, lets call it MANA.
Right after the dot is cast, I then apply a procedure to add MANA*0.8 to the casters mana pool.
Now comes the tricky part, adding the mana cost to the dot tics.
I'm assuming it first finds the target(s), so we need a variable for that, how many targets will be hit, lets call it TARGETS.
Then we need to know how many tics are delivered pr targets, lets call it TICKS.
Finally we need to add a parameter to each tick on each dot, how much mana the caster is to be taxed.
This will be, (MANA*0.8)/TARGETS/TICKS = TAX.
So now each time a dot does a tick, it will do its damage, and what ever else it usually does, but now it also makes the casters lose TAX mana.
I have no idea if this method will work with the way its actually coded, but thats what I invision.
I'm also not sure how hard these data are to get, if they are already available in current procedure calls or not. If they arent, well then its potentially a major problem; I would be supriced if its the case though.
Finally I don't know how hard/possible it is to add a factor to each dot, that the caster needs to lose X mana pr. tick.
Also my "analyses" that this will not make dot class' over powered, is based on my knowledge of Necromancer and Shaman dot's.
If for example Bards have a "dot" that starts by doing 99% of its damage as a DD, and then it has 3 tics of virtually 0 damage; and the bard can reapply this dot so fast that it never tics, or max tics 1 time...
Well that would be a major problem, because then the bard would only pay as low as 20% of the casting cost, and still get the same damage...
To my knowledge there is no such dot...
I think the closest thing is the necro R2, doing 600 DD damage on cast.
If the necro was to chain cast this monster, he would get a DD of 600 damage, for 204 base mana, pr cast, cast time 5.5 seconds as I recall. Not even usable.
Looking over dots, I can't find any that will give problems.
The most obvious candidate is the already crazy broken spell, Druid R2, Cataclysm. But its categorized as a DD.
Enchanter Misery of the Swamp, could kinda double as a DD spell, but still a pretty pathetic one, not terrible mana effecient, 225 damage for 55 mana, cast time 2.25. Would be roughly 147 dps chaining it...
Not sure how the bard dots work, but they all seem to cost 0 mana, and dont have a DD compoment, so they wouldnt be affected at all.
The most obvious candidate is the already crazy broken spell, Druid R2, Cataclysm. But its categorized as a DD.
Enchanter Misery of the Swamp, could kinda double as a DD spell, but still a pretty pathetic one, not terrible mana effecient, 225 damage for 55 mana, cast time 2.25. Would be roughly 147 dps chaining it...
Not sure how the bard dots work, but they all seem to cost 0 mana, and dont have a DD compoment, so they wouldnt be affected at all.
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Yes they are, cause I dot either way, even if the mob is about to die because bard dots offer good enough debuffs that its worth dotting even if its only gonna be alive for another 5-10 seconds. I dont want our dots messed with at all.
Again your stuff is flawed.
Any primal blast is way more effecient than any cast dot can every be.
Also we previously determined that the best necro dot and the 3rd best necro dot for damage, is worse than wizard nukes.
Same goes for all Shaman dots, Even going full rotation.
So nice attempt, but its wrong.
I see though, why dots arent great, apperently on paper they look insane, well at least if you don't look a little deeper.
Any primal blast is way more effecient than any cast dot can every be.
Also we previously determined that the best necro dot and the 3rd best necro dot for damage, is worse than wizard nukes.
Same goes for all Shaman dots, Even going full rotation.
So nice attempt, but its wrong.
I see though, why dots arent great, apperently on paper they look insane, well at least if you don't look a little deeper.
But lets apply your scema there to an exp group im in here.
SK, Rng, Wiz, Bard, Nec and Cleric....
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 13s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 33s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 7s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
>
A flametalon master
---Fight Length: 55s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 22s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 32s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 45s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 15s
A failed iksar child
---Fight Length: 59s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 3s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 12s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 2s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 40s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 55s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 34s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 30s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 30s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw bridgekeeper
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 24s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 37s
A citadel construct
---Fight Length: 45s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 26s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 40s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 37s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 18s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 18s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 10s
A roll master
---Fight Length: 67s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 2s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 23s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 28s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw chronicler
---Fight Length: 52s
An animated tome
---Fight Length: 52s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 8s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 3s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 24s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 14s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 10s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 13s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 9s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw warchanter
---Fight Length: 54s
A claw myrmidon
---Fight Length: 82s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw warden
---Fight Length: 41s
A claw torturer
---Fight Length: 31s
A claw torturer
---Fight Length: 38s
ect ect.
Going by your chart.
How many times can I cast Scitterpox? 60 seconds duration (Takes 5.5 seconds to cast, 2.5 seconds till spellbar is ready)
Marlow? 48 seconds duration (takes 4.6 seconds to cast, and 2.5 seconds till spellbar is ready)
R2? 36 seconds duration, cast 4.6...
Archaic? 30 seconds duration, cast 3.2 + 2.5 seconds till can cast again...
Caress? 24 seconds duration, cast 3.2 bla bla.
Basicly, I'm lucky if I ever got to cast Marlow, and it takes some amazing foresight to know the fight takes 1 minut, open with Marlow, follow by R2, then Archaic, then Caress, and then just lifetap, and hope the fight didnt take 1 minut and 20 seconds, cause then there is no way I get kill shot at the end...
So 6 times, in that exp group, could I cast Marlow, if I had known the duration of the fight in advance, and did open with it...
But since Marlow is the 4th best dps dot, its not good for dps to open on it. So basicly I wanna do R2, in to Archaic in to Caress and Then I could cast Marlow. Might do Marlow over Caress, they close.
Anyway, the numbers speaks volumes. I know you just don't want to see it Nwaij, you and many other ppl, but im not just making this up, and deep down in side, im pretty sure you very well know this.
SK, Rng, Wiz, Bard, Nec and Cleric....
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 13s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 33s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 7s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
>
A flametalon master
---Fight Length: 55s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 22s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 32s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 45s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 15s
A failed iksar child
---Fight Length: 59s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 3s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 12s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 2s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 40s
A claw adept
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 55s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 34s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 30s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw shadow
---Fight Length: 30s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw bridgekeeper
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 24s
A claw striker
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 37s
A citadel construct
---Fight Length: 45s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 4s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 26s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 40s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 37s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 18s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 18s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 25s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 6s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 10s
A roll master
---Fight Length: 67s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 2s
A claw sentry
---Fight Length: 23s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw flametalon
---Fight Length: 28s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 46s
A claw chronicler
---Fight Length: 52s
An animated tome
---Fight Length: 52s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 8s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 5s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 3s
A claw fledgling
---Fight Length: 1s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 24s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 14s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw watchman
---Fight Length: 10s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 13s
Latent ice spirit
---Fight Length: 9s
A claw icetalon
---Fight Length: 29s
A claw warchanter
---Fight Length: 54s
A claw myrmidon
---Fight Length: 82s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 20s
A claw patroller
---Fight Length: 15s
A claw warden
---Fight Length: 41s
A claw torturer
---Fight Length: 31s
A claw torturer
---Fight Length: 38s
ect ect.
Going by your chart.
How many times can I cast Scitterpox? 60 seconds duration (Takes 5.5 seconds to cast, 2.5 seconds till spellbar is ready)
Marlow? 48 seconds duration (takes 4.6 seconds to cast, and 2.5 seconds till spellbar is ready)
R2? 36 seconds duration, cast 4.6...
Archaic? 30 seconds duration, cast 3.2 + 2.5 seconds till can cast again...
Caress? 24 seconds duration, cast 3.2 bla bla.
Basicly, I'm lucky if I ever got to cast Marlow, and it takes some amazing foresight to know the fight takes 1 minut, open with Marlow, follow by R2, then Archaic, then Caress, and then just lifetap, and hope the fight didnt take 1 minut and 20 seconds, cause then there is no way I get kill shot at the end...
So 6 times, in that exp group, could I cast Marlow, if I had known the duration of the fight in advance, and did open with it...
But since Marlow is the 4th best dps dot, its not good for dps to open on it. So basicly I wanna do R2, in to Archaic in to Caress and Then I could cast Marlow. Might do Marlow over Caress, they close.
Anyway, the numbers speaks volumes. I know you just don't want to see it Nwaij, you and many other ppl, but im not just making this up, and deep down in side, im pretty sure you very well know this.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Marlow: 48 sec duration -> after 24 sec duration, you are as mana efficient as any other caster dps, so stop crying. Looking at your numbers, you seem to have stacked burst dps like mad to kill things as fast as absolutely possible - where did you get 1 sec fights vs claw adepts from anyways? I'd also like to know how you kill claw fledgelings in 5 sec, because I can't kill them that fast on my wizard unless i decide to mooncomet/flashflame them, wich is a flat out terrible decession.
Still, any mob more relevant then a claw patroler (you might have heared of them, the easiest non-adds in that zone!) lasts longer then 24 sec. So on any mob that is remotely relevant, your marlow would be on par for damage to mana. If you think that it is a reasonable idea to cast a dot that lasts >60 (Scitterpox) sec on mobs that you KNOW won't last that long (You have been to citadel before!) idk what to tell yop any more.
EDIT: I can't believe that you bring up primal blasts, do you even know how rare these are? (And even more so, how often they are total overkill?)
Still, any mob more relevant then a claw patroler (you might have heared of them, the easiest non-adds in that zone!) lasts longer then 24 sec. So on any mob that is remotely relevant, your marlow would be on par for damage to mana. If you think that it is a reasonable idea to cast a dot that lasts >60 (Scitterpox) sec on mobs that you KNOW won't last that long (You have been to citadel before!) idk what to tell yop any more.
EDIT: I can't believe that you bring up primal blasts, do you even know how rare these are? (And even more so, how often they are total overkill?)
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I .... ummm... I don't cast DoT's on EXP mobs unless they die within 20-30 seconds +.... so since we have a few other things to do to take killshots and keep the group going, I dont know why you wanna dot things in EXP groups. And if i do dot things, its usually archaic, caress, and R2 that I use, and I do just fine.