Damage over Time idea.

iBluNT said:
The same thing happens for every single class that casts mana.
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I read it as "the same thing happns for every single class that casts a spell"....

Anyway, I'm not mad; frustrated perhaps, but not mad.

It's fine you don't agree, but it's funny how it's often Rangers and Wizards comes and tells me my class if just fine, and then later in the day shouting "LoL! I did more dps than the necro, even though I was dead at 20%, thrue the entire burn phase hahaha".
 
Snake said:
No this one is not on me.

I say "Dots are slow and has many drawbacks, odd that it then doesn't do alot of damage, once it gets going".

And you say "Why do you want to compare your self with a wizard? Let me compare you with a wizard...".


Okey, sure lets do that then, I'll do some parses soon. I can even do some different scenario's, like...
DPS using full mana with max dps through out.
Damage during vah.
Damage vs immune to Poison / Disease / Fire / Cold / Magic / All ect.
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well..... I mean

Snake said:
Could also just check out its power lvl compared to Wizard nukes.
Moon Comet, 2575 base damage, at 525 mana.
Affliction storm on Necro Claws of the Chill, 1275 base damage for 481 mana and 20% life
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Seems to me you want to be a wizard
 
iBluNT said:
... threads regarding necros starts out with one train of thought and moves on into so many others. Like this; remember how you were upset how necros don't benefit on short duration fights and should get their mana back when their DoTs end prematurely, which the entire original post was about? You really summarized that beautifully in this post you made later on in the same thread.
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Yeah your right, this post was suppose to be about reducing mana lost on dots not completing. And it was not suppose to about necro, as this is a general dot thing.

It just makes me wonder, why there is so much opposistion to help a struggeling class. So I derailed my self with the whole thing about dots having all the drawbacks on top of not being great dps, even when full throttle.
 
Snake said:
Yeah your right, this post was suppose to be about reducing mana lost on dots not completing. And it was not suppose to about necro, as this is a general dot thing.

It just makes me wonder, why there is so much opposistion to help a struggeling class. So I derailed my self with the whole thing about dots having all the drawbacks on top of not being great dps, even when full throttle.
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To bring this back on topic then (maybe?): I do not think that dot's need any reduction of mana lost/reimbursement for mana lost. Compared to other means of spell damage, they already are way way way more bang for thr buck, only reasonable conclusion is that mana loss for lost ticks is already factored in.
 
Well obviously I disagree.
For me the problem here is, that you look at the stats like that "uh, 3.75 cast time, does 4k damage, insane", sure, if it did that, but thats the whole point, it often doesn't, and the cast time is not relevant in the same way as it is for DD's...

What you need is a sheet that says how much the dots do on average, in shorter time spans.
So if a DD lands, it just does it damage. It may be over kill, but the number is still there. The spell info says it all.
If a DoT lands, well how much damage does it do?
That depends greatly on the situation. If its on a raid mob with tons of hp's, it does basicly what you see in the spell description (at the end of the fight, it wont be as good, but if it was cast, say 6 times, well its still gonna be close to the sheet value).
If how ever it's cast in an exp group, or other scenario where the target doesnt live for a solid long time, well then its very hard to say.

It can land and do 0 damage. The target dies before even the first tick goes off. Lets ignore this scenario.
It can do 1 tick and target dies. 2 ticks and target dies, ...., n ticks and target dies. (n = all).
Add the total damage off all the scenario's, divide it by the number of scenario's, and you have the theoretical average damage of a fight of an unknown lenght, lasting from 1st tick, to last tick (all fights will end like this, but if its a long fight, lots of full length dots will come before this shorter scenario).

i = Initial damage.
t = tick damage.
n = # of ticks.

Formular would be:
Theoretical total average damage = i + ((((1+n)/2) * n * t) / n)

Archaic:
0 + ((((1+5)/2) * 5 * 765) / 5) = 2.295

Caress:
215 + ((((1+4)/2) * 4 * 498) / 4) = 1.460

Runic 2:
600 + ((((1+12)/2) * 12 * 380) / 12) = 3.070

Marlow:
0 + ((((1+8)/2) * 8 * 460) / 8) = 2.070

Scitterpox:
125 + ((((1+10)/2) * 10 * 350) / 10) = 2.050


I know this is not gonna change anyones mind, cause its already made up...
But this is what dot average damage looks like, when the mob dies with a dot on it, getting killed by it, or very shortly after the dot wears off.
 
So if I understand your math right, you have now proven that necromancers are getting the same ammount of damage per mana on average that a wizard gets as well, while still absolutely destroying any other caster on mana efficiency on long fights. This leads us back to the original question of why on earth NECs would require anything that makes them even more mana efficient/allows them to be more mana efficient in any and all situations.
 
My bad, didn't do damage to mana ratio...

Moon Comet:
2575/525 = 4.90


Archaic:
2.295/480 = 4.78

Caress:
1.460/505 = 2.89

Runic 2:
3.070/1020 = 3.01

Marlow:
2.070/460 = 4.5

Scitterpox:
2.050/525 = 3.90

Average of 3.82.


Not sure they should be weightet after the length of the dot. Like you cast 2.5 caress for every 1 Scitterpox for example.
Either way, no, its not nearly as good as a wizards ratio, and Shaman's have it even worse with theirs. Don't know about Beastlords.


On longer fights, my idea won't make any difference. If a dot goes full rotation, the necro/shm/bst ect. would still pay the dot in full.
 
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Oh and since you keep saying they destroy other casters in longer fights, lets do the sheet math.

If all 5 dots are kept up on constant rotation, we use scitterpox as the point of reference, being the dot that lasts the longest.

That means the necro will cast 2.5 Caress for each Scitterpox. 2 Archaic, 1.25 Marlow, 1,66 R2.

Mana ratio on full rotation dots:
R2: 5160/1020 = 5.06
Archaic: 3825/480 = 7.97
Marlow: 3680/460 = 7.91
Scitterpox: 3625/525 = 6.90
Caress: 2207/505 = 4.37

Factor it in:
((5.06*1,66)+(7.97*2)+(7.91*1.25)+(6.90*1)+(4.37*2.5))/(1+1.25+1.66+2+2.5) = 6,19


It's for sure better than Wizards, although this doesn't take in to account for the whole primal ect. system. Necro's have nothing of that.
Nor does it take in to account if the monster is very resistant, and great many other things...

Anyway, I hope the post above this one sheds some light on how bad dots are in shorter fights, and why its not fun relying on them in fights that doesn't last very long. Please make dot casters have more freedom to cast dots with out to much concern of how long the target lives.
 
Snake said:
Please make dot casters have more freedom to cast dots with out to much concern of how long the target lives.
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So you want to remove the "time" component from "damage over time". Please take a step back and consider what you just suggested.
 
Mana cost is lower (long fights) or on par (average fights) with other caster dps. If you insist on casting a lot of spells on low HP targets that is a bad decession on your end. With that said, I think we have discussed all there is to this topic.
 
Wizards can sacrifice themselves for a 'huge' nuke. I want to detonate my cleric in similar manner during combat. The effect should spawn a wave of shrunken gnomes that proc 100 point raid heals.

(I did the math already, fyi)
 
Nwaij said:
Mana cost is lower (long fights) or on par (average fights) with other caster dps. If you insist on casting a lot of spells on low HP targets that is a bad decession on your end. With that said, I think we have discussed all there is to this topic.
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I think you have showed very well that you from your first reply, to this, that you havent grasped the concept, nor the problem.
Try and play a necro a in few exp groups, perhaps you will then better understand.

As Binsin was saying (I have him ignored now, so cant re check), I'm not suited to talk about the class till I have played it for 5 years; well as much as I don't agree, I kinda see his point, thrue your comments Nwaij :p

(Or perhaps this isent an issue of understanding at all...)
 
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I had to unignore to see what else he said, and im dying, dude has just started playing his necro now for about 2 months, went from T6 to T12 gear and thinks he knows the class as well as someone who has played it for 5 years. I love it. I dont think i want to ignore him cause everything he says is hilarious
 
Alright so, Necro Class mana on DoT's is oppressive on raids....I might remind you that in EXP groups Necro's keep an entire Group full of mana, get the best Mana regen Buff in the game, have dread lich, and have a pet that requires no mana cost for DPS. (Granted it is low.) Now...I don't play necro, but I think this kind of goes back to the whole each class shines in different areas. Necro's shine in long fights and EXP groups. Not in short lived raid trash mobs. Just like Wizards are meh on long fights that run them out of mana, or they learn to conserve and do less over-all DPS.

Rather the mana cost is high or not, you have balances for that problem. There is no reason imho that Necros should get another mana ability. They have more than any other class out there. Wizards have Arcane Echo, and a self only kill-shot spell, 2 harvest that are quite small imo. Mages have modrods, and if u have a mage, you do too. Clr/Dru, nil. Enchanters, Gather mana, once every hr or 2. Bst, Paragon, not strong enough to compare to Necros period. Rangers, nil. Paladins, nil. Shadowknights, that 1 buff they give their group IF he and the group have the buffslots for it. Bards, Mana regen Song, lot better songs to be played except in special situations. Shamans, well do we really need to go there? they are the kings, but they only got 2 abilities and 1 is only 1% mana per cast. (This may vary with taste like chicken?)

So, compared to all, you have the 2nd best, you can say rivaled for 2nd by wizard but I disagree, mana regen setup in the game. If you are having problems to losing mana to "Mob dies with my dots on" it sounds like you are doing it wrong. Like literally...cast a DD if the mob is at that point, not a DoT. Archaic:2.295 over a period of time...you expect that to kill the mob that is low on HP? GL with that. That is like auxing during enrage; your never landing a hit so you can't aux, and you are losing something for it. Only difference is a different bar, and you potentially get a tick or two of dmg off.

As for DoTs vs DDs...well...I mean...a wizard has to chain cast a single spell, you chain cast 5 different spells. you have like 4-5 dots ticking at one time. Do you really think your dmg-to-mana ratio should be the same? cause once you get going, your dishing out more base dmg than the wizard.


Moon Comet:
2575/525 = 4.90


Archaic:
2.295/480 = 4.78

Caress:
1.460/505 = 2.89

Runic 2:
3.070/1020 = 3.01

Marlow:
2.070/460 = 4.5

Scitterpox:
2.050/525 = 3.90
_____________
10,955 vs 2575

That is "base" and Wizards get the nice ultimates and such, but you also get like 5 chances to crit, means your dmg varies but is more consistent. I don't know lengths/rotations but I assume you can land all these at one time because you mentioned so, and you may even can sneak in a nuke before reapplying? not sure if that's smart/bad. Then there is your 50-100 DPS pet. So, no, you don't got the best mana to dmg ratio, but you have more consistent dmg ONCE you get going. That's how DoT classes work, and if your tome worked the more dots you got on him, the lower his resistances would be so even more DPS. You will get out DPSed, but you also have more utility than a wizard could ever have. That is just your trade off.

Literally, I just can't see why we should rework the entire DoT system because "The mob died and my DoTs weren't finished..." Welcome to lyfe, where nothing is perfect and you have to adjust to things. With all of that, I bow out. Just had to speak my 2 cents worth.
 
Please remember this is not a "change necro" idea, this is a change dots idea.

So let's take an other class who's main weapon is dots, shaman.

Shaman cast relic dot, after 5 seconds it ticks the first time, after 5 more seconds, the target dies.
Current system, shaman paid 500 mana for 275 + 550 base damage.
Pretty terrible.
Options. Don't cast your dot, when ever there is a chance the monster die with in the next 24 seconds.
Change your spell bar to have cold nuke, probably sacrificing a dot, a debuff or a heal spell.
Just cast it, pay the mana, accept that you tried with what tools you had at your disposal.

How much better with my new idea?
Casts dot, loses 500 mana, then gets 400 back instant (I don't know the exact number, as it depends on the casters gear ect; but calculated the same way as it currently is).
Dot on target is now set to do 4 ticks of 550 base damage that will cost the caster 100 mana pr tick.
It does 1 tick, and the mob dies.
So the shm did the same damage as before, but now "only" paid 40% of the dots total cost.

I really don't see why this is a bad idea.

Perhaps a dev care to comment?
 
demither said:
https://spells.shardsofdalaya.com/s...axmana=&levelmin=&levelmax=&commit=Search&s=t

I understand
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So your workaround, is to do nothing when the monster is with in ~20 seconds of death, but just try and get the kill shot with the PBAoE?
Just sit tight till then, or perhaps try and get the PBAoE off more than once, or perhaps cast a lifetap.

I'm confused, you don't think the way dots work in short fights is a problem? Or you do think it's a problem, in such an extent that you don't cast dots at all?

Also Jeac I don't know what groups you run your necromancer in, but I applaud you for keeping them fm, this is not something I can do (unless the group stops dps at near death. When they do it's a lot of fun for me, cause I get so many kill shots I don't run oom. But it's rare that groups care enough about my mana pool to do this).
I do run out of mana before they do, even with a few kill shots here and there. . I guess it's my own fault for casting dots, I should just send in relic pet (again my own fault for using runic pet), wait the 5-25 seconds it takes my group to kill the mob, but near the end, aim for a kill shot with my PBAoE spell... Yay sounds fun; but since it's an imperfect world, that's just how it is, I should under no cicumatances try and come up with ideas what could be done to make it more viable in short fights.

Also my pet of choice, runic 1, doesn't do mana free damage. It has its own mana pool that suffers the same problem, it likes to cast dots, pays a high cost for an often small reward.
I can't tell it to just cast dd's, so my options are, don't have it "attack" or don't use it at all. (Or accept that it's just oom most the time, but it doing what it's suppose to be doing).

Sounds like your choice for your necromancer was "don't use it at all".
People have told me this before, don't use it, it's shit.
I like it, it's like me, a chain dot machine, applying potential damage is our way of life.
 
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