Damage over Time idea.

Snake said:
Dots still cost the same as they do now, but right after the spell lands, the caster gets 80% of the mana spent, back.
Then each dot tick will cost the caster, mana-spent*0.8/#ticks-the-dot-has.
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It's funny how you all see a monster in these two lines, and I see logic and simplicity.

I will reflect on this, try to find the monster.
My original post, contained all the side effects that I found in my "searching for the monster"; yet you all saw something clear as day...

Nwaij found it over complicated and that it was a make belive issue.
Emzur thought it made no sense, cause casting dots or any other spell, is essentially the same; and should there for stay the same.
Jmayzak belives its not about game mechanics, but about player skills (not to lose mana to casting dots - topic)

I just dont see it, to me these arguments are near non sense heh.
 
Snake said:
It's funny how you all see a monster in these two lines, and I see logic and simplicity.

I will reflect on this, try to find the monster.
My original post, contained all the side effects that I found in my "searching for the monster"; yet you all saw something clear as day...

Nwaij found it over complicated and that it was a make belive issue.
Emzur thought it made no sense, cause casting dots or any other spell, is essentially the same; and should there for stay the same.
Jmayzak belives its not about game mechanics, but about player skills (not to lose mana to casting dots - topic)

I just dont see it, to me these arguments are near non sense heh.
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So are your arguments to us. Think about it.
 
demither said:
Uhhh i mean i just cast either an archaic dot on 2+ trash mobs or if its 1 i lifetap... idk man
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Fair enough. Yeah thats deff. not my playstyle.
I look actively for the max dps option, but when ever burst dps'ers change target, perhaps because of suddently getting primals or other "lucky" rounds, well I ended up wishing I had just done archaic and sat down.

At least I have 7 clickers that doesn't cost any mana, would just be cool if it was more viable casting dots, even when they get "sniped".

An other solution is to not group with other high dps'ers. When I'm in groups where I do the most damage, and mobs stay alive for 1 minut or more, then I'm doing ok :)
In these lower DPS groups where mobs live a while longer, the problem is a little the same still though, in that if my dots all run out with the mob at say 30% health, well if I re apply the dots, they will only be ~50% mana efficient.
So often the solution here is to cast 1 dot, and just do clickers or taps, till the mob is at roughly 70%, and then apply R2, Arhcaic, Marlow and Caress, for "max" dps and best chance of getting kill shot, to get some mana back.
But again, yeah I dont like this, I like going full throttle, maxing my dps as early as possible, and keeping it up till the mob is dead. Just way to expensive with the way dots work.

I guess thats just the way the class is suppose to be. Don't try and do the dps that most other can on trash mobs, just tag along till the actual target (cast archaic and taps), and then do your real 6 dot rotation, to actually get up to dps, that the other can do from the very start, more or less....
 
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Snake said:
Fair enough. Yeah thats deff. not my playstyle.
I look actively for the max dps option, but when ever burst dps'ers change target, perhaps because of suddently getting primals or other "lucky" rounds, well I ended up wishing I had just done archaic and sat down.
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yeah understandable, im mostly sitting there trying to get the kill shot so we can med less at the boss (looking at you nomos, fuck you and your dps) but that being said, I do wish we had some more bonus crit from dots, or some cool form of primal, but its hard to be wishful for stuff like that
 
Sure. But that's a whole other problem though.

Necro (dot) dps is slow build, and it's less affected by for example vah, and usually also curses; vah because faster cast time, doesn't mean faster ticks - and though you can add more dots to the rotation, well the ones you add are bad lower tier dots, so it ends up not mattering as much. Also the dps is less spikey because you have 6 things that needs to crit, pr tick. So the likelihood of a super round, is way less likely (likewise the likelihood of a total non crit round is also less likely).
More or less the same with curses, we can't do anything to increase the # of tics during curses, we can only try to get more dots on the target when the curses happens. Usually raids doesn't take this in to account, because dots don't matter to much while curses, so often they are called for before we can apply more than a dot or two hehe.

This idea won't change this at all. This idea is just to be less mana taxed on dots that doesn't deliver all its damage. It will not increase the necromancers ability to do max dps at all.

So although I agree (see my post about Insidious Elements tome, this would be up the ally of what you ask), this suggestion has nothing to do with higher max dps, or more spikey dps.
 
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It does seem odd to me, that dot's have this many drawbacks, and then once they finally get going, they arent even very good.
  • They take time to set up.
  • You need many great ones, for them to matter.
  • Once going you cant stop them easily (can dispell non poison and disease ones).
  • They can get "sniped" much easier than any other type of damage (despite Emzur claims otherwise).
  • The dps they do are much less affected by casting speed increase, than DD's are.
  • They can get stopped by game mechanics, not doing full damage (cured, dispelled ect.)
With all these drawbacks, one should think that they then do amazing dps, cause if they are just bad dps with drawbacks, whats the point?
I think of dots like a Howitzer tank, slow, takes time to set up, but once they in place and start to fire, well then I would have thought they did amazing impact, but they don't... Odd.
 
Let's talk about some numbers then!
Capture.PNG
All these numbers are without any focus effects, using the spell as seen from the parser.

Now look at this! Necros have both the fastest casting relic and archaic of all damage producing relics out there! They also have THE most mana efficient spells of all caster dps, with the exception of a mage experiencing ideal conditions (aka 2 targets to rain on).

Guess what, that is because that is their "thing" - they can do considerable damage for a long time. Big shiny burst numbers simply aren't part of the necromancer class design. That's wizard territory. So if you want to do the burst of a wizard, you should have to pay the mana a wizard pays for his burst as well. This would result to about double the cost DoTs currently have. Is that really what you want?
 
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I'll run a parse when I get home. Then you can see some real numbers.

No I don't want burst; howitzer remember? Slow (aka will take time to set up) but big impact (aka high dps parse if run over several minuts).


(Why did you leave out #1 Necro dot? It's not as bad damage/mana ratio as many think, your self included apperently heheh)
 
Also your data is wrong. Scitterpox is not as strong as you give it credit for. Nor is Caress. So if those are the numbers the Devs are comparing class by, that may explain a thing or two.

Caress' mana ratio is 4.37, way worse than Moon Comet.
Also you should show Wizard Ancient, if you want to compare mana effeciency.

But its really apples and oranges, but in the end, I'm very sure that even over several minuts, the wizard's mana pool will still prevail, and will do more damage over time (not burst, long time) than a necro.


I'll run some parses later. In the mean time, please correct your data.
 
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Well Binsin, its the 3rd highest Necro DPS spell, higher than the best Relic dot. So whats your point? Oh, and the way dots work, just casting 2 dots, doesn't give you big numbers, so its DPS wise the 3rd most important necro spell.
It's also the one you will have to cast the most often, as it only lasts 24 seconds, so its very class defining, drop spell or not.

As always your comments are just dumb and pointless, is it to much to ask that you stay out of my posts please?
 
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You were right, numbers on Scitterpox and Caress were wrong. Fixed. Not quite sure wich spell you refere to with "#1 NEC dot", but I left out taps.
Not quite sure why or how WIZ ancient should be of any relevance, that spell starts geting cycled out once relic nuke is obtained, and gets entirely abandoned once archaic is obtained. If any other WIZ spell should be included, it should be Relic: Lure of the Void (5.5/725/2170/1/2.99), the spell wizards have to use when a mob is highly resistant to both fire and cold (where NECs have no problem landing their dots still due to obscene resist adjustments).

EDIT: Also, you are right. This is pretty much comparing apples with oranges, but you are the one who started to compare NEC damaging capabilitys with the damaging capabilitys of other classes, so this one is on you.
 
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Snake said:
They can get "sniped" much easier than any other type of damage (despite Emzur claims otherwise).
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Seems like you make these threads just to argue with folks. I never said DoTs can't get sniped easier than other spells - I was taking your idea of getting mana back on spells that don't benefit from their full functionality. Similar to a heal that doesn't actually heal anything, or a DD nuke that doesn't actually do damage because it's been done already. You're constantly comparing necros to wizards to rangers to (insert another class that parses higher than you on 1 fight), and every one of your threads regarding necros starts out with one train of thought and moves on into so many others. Like this; remember how you were upset how necros don't benefit on short duration fights and should get their mana back when their DoTs end prematurely, which the entire original post was about? You really summarized that beautifully in this post you made later on in the same thread.

Snake said:
No I don't want burst; howitzer remember? Slow (aka will take time to set up) but big impact (aka high dps parse if run over several minuts).
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It seems like people forget that different classes were made in this game for a reason, and not all function the same way or reap the same benefits from the same things. Not all classes have to parse the same numbers over the same amount of time, and no class comes out of the box doing big numbers. Not all classes have to sky rocket numbers once they vah back or once curses are casted. I think you're doing a poor job trying to get your points and thoughts across by scattering them into several threads complaining about the wrong areas of being a necromancer, especially when you say that these ideas you come up with are "not complicated to implement, the data is there, etc." There are other areas of being a necromancer that deserve more attention than what you're giving them, and history has proven that nothing in this game is easy to implement regardless of the simplicity of it.

And last of all, quit getting mad at people that disagree with you. It may be too late to say that now, but damn. Every time I read a post it's you saying you want people to hear you out but then it's also you telling people they're wrong because they don't like your idea.
 
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I mean, im just curious, im no necromancer, and i havnt played one in like 5 years, and of that, he never even got above T2, so I might not have the best idea, but if what you are looking for is a way to suddenly do damage with your dots for killshots, or a way to conserve mana, would it be easier for Dev's to just make an AA that allows Necros to force tick all current dots applied and for balance reasons, cause those dots to dispell, or force their timers to end? maybe similar to how bards can /cm endsong or duck to end their song and remove it from a mob (but not force a tick). That way if you do have like 4 dots applied, smack this AA when its low enough to try for a kill shot, idk. dosnt seem too overpowered and yet also allows necros another possible way to land kill shots without really messing with their play style
 
Nwaij said:
EDIT: Also, you are right. This is pretty much comparing apples with oranges, but you are the one who started to compare NEC damaging capabilitys with the damaging capabilitys of other classes, so this one is on you.
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No this one is not on me.

I say "Dots are slow and has many drawbacks, odd that it then doesn't do alot of damage, once it gets going".

And you say "Why do you want to compare your self with a wizard? Let me compare you with a wizard...".


Okey, sure lets do that then, I'll do some parses soon. I can even do some different scenario's, like...
DPS using full mana with max dps through out.
Damage during vah.
Damage vs immune to Poison / Disease / Fire / Cold / Magic / All ect.


(Best necro dps dot is Runic 2.)
 
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Also is there a way I can ignore Binsin?

I mean I'm just gonna do it manually, but would be nice if I could have it done automaticly, I'm sure a lot would be happy for such a feature.. Perhaps I should make a post about that.... Meh, I might do that after my parses.

Joke aside, Binsin, I'm not even gonna read your posts, just so you don't put to much efford in to it.
 
Snake said:
No this one is not on me.

I say "Dots are slow and has many drawbacks, odd that it then doesn't do alot of damage, once it gets going".

And you say "Why do you want to compare your self with a wizard? Let me compare you with a wizard...".


Okey, sure lets do that then, I'll do some parses soon. I can even do some different scenario's, like...
DPS using full mana with max dps through out.
Damage during vah.
Damage vs immune to Poison / Disease / Fire / Cold / Magic / All ect.
Click to expand...

you forgot:
Damage while crying out a river of tears.
Damage while bitching about people on the forums.

(ignore me too, I don't care.)
 
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