DernipDaGnome
Dalayan Adventurer
I like both option one and two, Waldo.
Codex of Power Revamp
- Thread starter Waldoff
- Start date
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
It doesnt detract from exp, but it still adds something you can exp for a really really long time. 78 codex of exp is huge. More tomes is a bad thing, so expable items are the next best thing
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
We allready had this in the form of Rohk book, but alas, that got nerfed to the point of noone even bothers with getting one.
Maybe I fail to understand game balance, I never understood the problem with an incredibly-tedious-to-get item, that took about 100 million xp (give or take a few, depending on class) to be on par with far less tedious to get t11/12.
After that, it was a gain of 7.5HP/mana, 0.3 SvAll, 0.5 all stats, and about 1 AC per level, where at this state, it was 35.000.000 xp for this level, and an increase of 5.000.000 xp per level - so give it another level or 3, and you were in the CoP ballpark range of XP, for a gain of essentially 8hp 8 mana 1 AC, and it got only worse from there.
To complete it, one would have required to get 2.805.000.000 xp after obtaining this item - that is approximately the ammount the 5 most xp'd toons on the server have, combined.
Since that was deemed overpowered and gamebreaking (why again?), I can not think that devs would agree that there is any room for anything to put xp in after a certain point anyways.
I like the idea of expable items tev had although i dont think its "Fair" forthe people who put time in to raid flag and gear for someone to get equilvent of power the top teir droppers in game ie t12-13 14??? . How ever it would be nice to see expable items added to the game that could posisibly contribute to equality of t8-9 gear tops but wiht the limit of only being able to xp 1 item at atime. thatway no one could just farm 7+ peices ofgear then just xp themall at once. And when sod ever gets ikithish 2.0? if we ever, then yes new dropable gear from these zones if tiersjump from what they are now to 15 or 16 i wouldnt see the hurt in haveing xp gear raised to t11 and 12 standareds.
I like some of the suggestions that have already come up.
Raxton's idea I like, but I still think 500AA is way too many for the codex of powers. I stopped doing codex of power after my first one, and went on to other tomes I liked more (which I got a lot of criticism for) - I just couldn't handle putting that much time and exp into the tomes and watching it go so slow. I suggest 100 AA each if not less, like 75 per tome. They take too many AA and since they all equate to 20%, 75 AA per increase is a good jump (75-100) requirement.
Raxton suggested:
New:
Cop1-50aa
Cop2-80aa
Cop3-110aa
Cop4-140aa
Cop5-170aa
Sum-550aa
Thats not bad, either put it at 75-100 like i suggest or stagger the AA like Raxton suggests (although I think 140-170 is way too high).
However, I also think Nwaij's Tome reimplimentation/nerf fix is also a good idea. (http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/The_Mountain's_Fury)
BUT! In terms of an unlimited EXP sink, how about the following:
Using your "boss" idea - How about items that drop off of zone bosses that you have to Exp - like tomes - that increase your damage in that zone or only a few zones.
Or - my favorite idea - is an item that you combine with any other item in a kit (like an aug kit) that triggers that item to EXP and gain power. It would be maybe 100 AA to increase your items stats 10% (different % for atk power and delay). You can either buy this item from a NPC or it can drop off bosses (perhaps for greater item exp) - and you can EXP items either once or several times.
Similarly, you can find items that give you more of a current stat to add to an item (mana, sta, etc) - that you need to EXP before adding to your item.
That would be good for people that arent maxed in all stats.
For people who ARE maxed in all stats, could be options that cost TONS Of exp - say 500 or so, that are quest items that you can turn in for various character rewards (more overcap stats, damage, mana regen, etc). Maybe give the player a choice? Or perhaps even a clicky reward? Everyone needs more clicky Nukes, neals, etcetera...
Those are just some thoughts. To summarize. Keep CoP - lower its cost//stagger its cost. Add in other EXP options!
Raxton's idea I like, but I still think 500AA is way too many for the codex of powers. I stopped doing codex of power after my first one, and went on to other tomes I liked more (which I got a lot of criticism for) - I just couldn't handle putting that much time and exp into the tomes and watching it go so slow. I suggest 100 AA each if not less, like 75 per tome. They take too many AA and since they all equate to 20%, 75 AA per increase is a good jump (75-100) requirement.
Raxton suggested:
New:
Cop1-50aa
Cop2-80aa
Cop3-110aa
Cop4-140aa
Cop5-170aa
Sum-550aa
Thats not bad, either put it at 75-100 like i suggest or stagger the AA like Raxton suggests (although I think 140-170 is way too high).
However, I also think Nwaij's Tome reimplimentation/nerf fix is also a good idea. (http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/The_Mountain's_Fury)
BUT! In terms of an unlimited EXP sink, how about the following:
Using your "boss" idea - How about items that drop off of zone bosses that you have to Exp - like tomes - that increase your damage in that zone or only a few zones.
Or - my favorite idea - is an item that you combine with any other item in a kit (like an aug kit) that triggers that item to EXP and gain power. It would be maybe 100 AA to increase your items stats 10% (different % for atk power and delay). You can either buy this item from a NPC or it can drop off bosses (perhaps for greater item exp) - and you can EXP items either once or several times.
Similarly, you can find items that give you more of a current stat to add to an item (mana, sta, etc) - that you need to EXP before adding to your item.
That would be good for people that arent maxed in all stats.
For people who ARE maxed in all stats, could be options that cost TONS Of exp - say 500 or so, that are quest items that you can turn in for various character rewards (more overcap stats, damage, mana regen, etc). Maybe give the player a choice? Or perhaps even a clicky reward? Everyone needs more clicky Nukes, neals, etcetera...
Those are just some thoughts. To summarize. Keep CoP - lower its cost//stagger its cost. Add in other EXP options!
I don't see how it's a problem really. High end guilds can decide if they want to invite people with cop5, and people without can join another guild. If the high end ones run out of players they can lower their requirements.
I just started playing two new chars and am in a guild and progressing just fine. I have yet to complete a CoP and yes they are super slow, but that is just fine with me. Gives me plenty more xp to get and unlimited leveling is something I quite like.
One thing I will say about CoP though is that for enchanters they are kinda weak. CoP adds to healing, DD, dots, hots, melee damage, pet damage, and ranged damage. Enchanters don't really do any of that. Enchanters buff, mez, and slow as their primary task. CoP does not help with this. I am not sure if CoP adds to damage done by somatic bond or not yet, but I think that would be the only way CoP would be of any real help to an enc.
Perhaps for the third enchanter tome there could be an advanced shared mind skill which adds learned tomes to group/raid members. Avoidance, CoP, critical strike, and all of those ones would be useful for enchanters to get
I just started playing two new chars and am in a guild and progressing just fine. I have yet to complete a CoP and yes they are super slow, but that is just fine with me. Gives me plenty more xp to get and unlimited leveling is something I quite like.
One thing I will say about CoP though is that for enchanters they are kinda weak. CoP adds to healing, DD, dots, hots, melee damage, pet damage, and ranged damage. Enchanters don't really do any of that. Enchanters buff, mez, and slow as their primary task. CoP does not help with this. I am not sure if CoP adds to damage done by somatic bond or not yet, but I think that would be the only way CoP would be of any real help to an enc.
Perhaps for the third enchanter tome there could be an advanced shared mind skill which adds learned tomes to group/raid members. Avoidance, CoP, critical strike, and all of those ones would be useful for enchanters to get
As an Enchanter, I put off the Codices for a good, long while because this was the way I saw things. However, as I progressed, I realized that they were arguably as important to this class as they are to any other.
To be clear, another ENC and I ran some rough numbers about a year ago and were convinced that Somatic Bond outputs damage at a fixed percentage of the damage that the recipient of the buff does. I cannot recall the exact number, but it was something in the ballpark 37.5% (which happens to be a nice, round 3/8ths if you prefer fractions). If the meleer does 8 damage, you do 3; if they do 8000, you do 3000; and so on. Tomes seem not to be taken into consideration with Somatic Bond because all your piggybacked figures are derived at a fixed ratio according to the damage output of the recipient of SB. In other words, the other person's Codices matter in the equation, but ours appear not to.
The bonus to pet damage from CoPs also appears not to apply to charmed pets, for the record. This is likely intentional.
Putting the above aside, an Enchanter can still stand to benefit from Codices of Power in the following two ways, the second of which is crucial for high-end raiding:
- A sufficiently advanced Enchanter is capable of surprisingly good at melee DPS in casual situations, and this melee damage will be augmented by Codices of Power. As the Enchanter rises through the tiers, his item haste will approach 50%. Coupled with +critical strike gear, the stellar ratios and procs of caster-only weaponry such as Irandos, Wand of Secrets or the Wand of Altered Mana, which most casters would overlook, and the *numerous* melee benefits that the Cascading Bond tomes confer--including locked 80% accuracy, from level 1 rats up through red con raid bosses--the Enchanter can certainly hold his own in melee if the situation calls for it.
- Codices of Power affect the potency of all DD and DoT spells mimicked by the Enchanter's Runic: Avatar of Destruction spell. This is the largest oversight of your observations, and understandably so; had I not lucked into the high-end raiding scene myself once upon a time, I'd never have given any thought to this spell's efficacy, much less the notion of actually having it in my spellbook. An ENC juggling this buff on multiple wizards during a raid fight, for example, may find himself mimicking Archaic: Moon Comet frequently, which might do 5000 DD without any CoP progress, whereas his fully-codexed counterpart would be doing a full 6000 DD on each mimic. In other words, AoD registers as the ENC casting these spells himself and thus applies all his damage modifiers to the damage output; the damage is calculated independently for the ENC and not at a fixed ratio like SB.
But at the risk of invalidating all of the above... I must say that I very much dislike the Codex of Power grind and find it lacking in any immediately tangible motivation factor. :dumbsad: I leave grouping sessions feeling ungratified when I see that a full hour's work has only netted me, say, 3% of my current Codex. ("You mean I have to do that 33 times over so my 2000 damage nuke can do 2080 damage?") Thankfully, good company can act as a much-needed saving grace in such times.
Paxit
Dalayan Elder
The whole tomes idea in general feels like a failed experiment, not just CoP which was here long before Ikisith expansion launched. There are just too many tomes and even if CoP was removed or replaced what do you do about the other 20+ tomes that raid guilds will want you to do in its place ?
If its failing the most direct course is to get rid of it all together and reimburse players that have invested heavily into tomes completions with something equally tedious and is part of the endgame they covet like charms from plat grinding.
Idea: Give each player with completed tome(s) a plat value token per tome that can be turned in to the charm vendor. For those that have a endgame charm already done and need reimbursement the token could be applied to some endgame exp-able items, like instead of plat value it xp's the item up a set amount (Dev some for t10+ content).
You get rid of the tome problem and keep players happy that they dont have to now go out and grind a million plat to fit in with your endgame content. The same system could be applied to converting completed tomes to a fame points clickable token as a third option.
Taking large scale things away from players has proven to be a tricky subject (ie. old Thaz) and has the potential to decrease player base population but if tomes impede or limit how the game can be dev'd in the future (3.0 client or even our current client) I am all for a system such as this to get rid of tomes all together as sort of reset button for SoD, its players and the staff.
If its failing the most direct course is to get rid of it all together and reimburse players that have invested heavily into tomes completions with something equally tedious and is part of the endgame they covet like charms from plat grinding.
Idea: Give each player with completed tome(s) a plat value token per tome that can be turned in to the charm vendor. For those that have a endgame charm already done and need reimbursement the token could be applied to some endgame exp-able items, like instead of plat value it xp's the item up a set amount (Dev some for t10+ content).
You get rid of the tome problem and keep players happy that they dont have to now go out and grind a million plat to fit in with your endgame content. The same system could be applied to converting completed tomes to a fame points clickable token as a third option.
Taking large scale things away from players has proven to be a tricky subject (ie. old Thaz) and has the potential to decrease player base population but if tomes impede or limit how the game can be dev'd in the future (3.0 client or even our current client) I am all for a system such as this to get rid of tomes all together as sort of reset button for SoD, its players and the staff.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
The issue with expable items only going to tier 8/9 is that most of the people that have nothing left to exp are t11+. Most people wouldnt want to pour tons of time and effort into an item that doesnt benefit them in any way. Expable items turning into a really good t12 item isnt a bad thing either, people who have a guild that no longer raids or is not progressing as fast as they would like can exp an item to give them some sort of gear reward. Seed of Energy and Seed of Health are examples of items that end up with really good stats for a lot of exp and hasnt caused any problems as far as i can tell.
The problem with removing tomes is that you now have 100 or more people who spent days, even months of their lives exping them. People who have 50+ tomes would probably be very unhappy if tomes were removed, theyd most likely quit. Its hard to reimburse tomes if they were taken away, considering how much time and effort were put into exping them/getting them by people
Meeil
Dalayan Elder
i'm not too sure it should be tinkered.
maybe if there was a way to get leadership aa's (expendable aa's), etc implemented to encourage more grouping and additional timesinks.
changing it now will just quench the thirst for now, eventually, people will change their mind as time passes and need something to spend their time on when they aren't raiding again. (again) expendable leadership aa's group aa's
but who knows, this all just sounds like a never ending cycle from certain points of views.
maybe just leave it the way it is.
maybe if there was a way to get leadership aa's (expendable aa's), etc implemented to encourage more grouping and additional timesinks.
changing it now will just quench the thirst for now, eventually, people will change their mind as time passes and need something to spend their time on when they aren't raiding again. (again) expendable leadership aa's group aa's
but who knows, this all just sounds like a never ending cycle from certain points of views.
maybe just leave it the way it is.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
if they have to change, i support this option, as long as i dont have to do anything extra to regain my 20% bonus.
although that does seem silly and reinforces all the inherent issues with tomes. when enough people have a lot of tomes, and having 5 codexs complete is the new requirement to raid, (even though they are not) we are going to give every character a 20% boost, just because. It does let you get into the more interesting and specialized ikisith tomes faster though since you will be able to put that ~550aas worth of xp into ikisith tomes first.
Not really a fan of Proposal 1 because of what some other people pointed out. Some classes only need to do 1 of those to be effective, and others will need to do at least 2 if not all 3 to be able to utilize their class to the fullest.
Scaling up the xp required per codex (as Raxton suggested) from 50aas to 170aas also seems like a poor compromise. New characters will be able to get the first 2 or 3 under their belt quicker but then codex 4 and 5 would take so much longer. Even though all codexes will be just as important/effective as they are now, im fairly confident it would cause players to stop xping or ignore the codex when you are not making any significant progress while trying to xp.
this item was the best ranged in the game about a third of the way into xping it. Maxing would have taken an immense amount of xp yes, but you should be able to understand how this one item, obtainable by a t10/11 group, that outclasses every other range in the game, is not a good thing.
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Personally, I like the availability (since you can just purchase from a vendor) and sink that is CoP. It is easy to ensure I have something to put my exp into as a new character wrapping up "important" aas for my class, the major problem in my opinion is that they feel sooo slow.
I don't see the CoP as a failed experiment mainly due to the fact that CoP tomes are not much different than having an AA called "Power" that you can train 550 times.
As such, I would vote for Proposal #1 or leave the CoPs as they are (or see my Proposal below). Tomes are a huge wall in and of itself. Moving to SoD 3.0 and "removing" tomes and putting them as AAs does not change this "wall" it just reshapes the box. AAs are meant to be a huge wall.. Live has what thousands of aas? As a new character in live (havent played it in years) I would expect the wall to feel just as large, if not larger. It is the nature of the game.
My proposal #3: Change Codex of Power 1 through 5 to be Codex of Power 1 - 20. Have each CoP take like 27aas (1/4 of 110), have them scale the same like they do now so that you can get the 1/2% bonus halfway through and such. It makes them feel faster and much less depressing. Decrease the cost of the tomes from 1367pp or whatever they currently are to be in line with about 1/4th the cost. I realize this just shifts the perception since its not really changing them much but I feel people would think its more obtainable perhaps?
Edit: I am not against changing the total amount of exp to fill all of the CoP tomes like say instead of 550aas.. it only takes say 400aas but the reality of CoP I think should stay much the same. However, splitting CoP up from 5 into 20 tomes will allow people to min/max the 1% a single CoP offers for 27aas vs say 1% evo that takes 50 or 60. Or a CoP vs a swift tome and such. Once again this is all perception from a new players standpoint.. since you can already do this by switching your active tome...
I don't see the CoP as a failed experiment mainly due to the fact that CoP tomes are not much different than having an AA called "Power" that you can train 550 times.
As such, I would vote for Proposal #1 or leave the CoPs as they are (or see my Proposal below). Tomes are a huge wall in and of itself. Moving to SoD 3.0 and "removing" tomes and putting them as AAs does not change this "wall" it just reshapes the box. AAs are meant to be a huge wall.. Live has what thousands of aas? As a new character in live (havent played it in years) I would expect the wall to feel just as large, if not larger. It is the nature of the game.
My proposal #3: Change Codex of Power 1 through 5 to be Codex of Power 1 - 20. Have each CoP take like 27aas (1/4 of 110), have them scale the same like they do now so that you can get the 1/2% bonus halfway through and such. It makes them feel faster and much less depressing. Decrease the cost of the tomes from 1367pp or whatever they currently are to be in line with about 1/4th the cost. I realize this just shifts the perception since its not really changing them much but I feel people would think its more obtainable perhaps?
Edit: I am not against changing the total amount of exp to fill all of the CoP tomes like say instead of 550aas.. it only takes say 400aas but the reality of CoP I think should stay much the same. However, splitting CoP up from 5 into 20 tomes will allow people to min/max the 1% a single CoP offers for 27aas vs say 1% evo that takes 50 or 60. Or a CoP vs a swift tome and such. Once again this is all perception from a new players standpoint.. since you can already do this by switching your active tome...
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Ok, so another possibly dumb question.. Say 2 goes into effect, most of us have the 20% now, and half of us get a buttload of xp reimbursed. How is this gonna work for folks that are done or approaching running out of tomes? Are they gonna be able to bank it? Is there gonna be something else thought out beforehand to start sinking xp into?
I'm not done yet on my main, but I know a lot of people that are, and unless they have a desire to start another character, which half don't seem to (and I'm not really looking forward to rushing into maining the shaman again) this is gonna be wasted for them, and those getting close are just gonna be finished (at 42 tomes, I'm close to that category), spending that extra xp on what they have left, therefore knocking more players off the top (again unless they want to start over on an alt), if not out of the game, at least into the whole, text me if we're raiding something cool or 6 man mob A pops. (it just me or was that a long-ass run-on sentence?..)
Sorry. Just playing the devil's advocate skeptic here. Can't help myself.
I'm not done yet on my main, but I know a lot of people that are, and unless they have a desire to start another character, which half don't seem to (and I'm not really looking forward to rushing into maining the shaman again) this is gonna be wasted for them, and those getting close are just gonna be finished (at 42 tomes, I'm close to that category), spending that extra xp on what they have left, therefore knocking more players off the top (again unless they want to start over on an alt), if not out of the game, at least into the whole, text me if we're raiding something cool or 6 man mob A pops. (it just me or was that a long-ass run-on sentence?..)
Sorry. Just playing the devil's advocate skeptic here. Can't help myself.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
In fact I do not see how one item in one slot, that takes hours upon hours to even obtain, not to mention to xp, is that gamebreaking. I'm also confused to what you are refering when you are saying 1/3 to maxing it. Level? Well yes, but thats about 10% of the total xp required to max it (225.000.000 XP on those 10%, more then a full set of 5 CoP).
So what I see is that those people who obtained this had 1 less slot to think about when it came to itemization (out of 20 slots), but got something that kept them playing outside raids because they were still able to progress their character. But alas, giving people out of tomes a reason to keep playing doesn't seem to be desireable, so whatever.
In fact, if we are worried about the ONE GAMEBREAKING ITEM, why not just put an xpable item for one slot on every toon at charakter creation, that takes countless ammounts of xp to max, and remove all other items that go to that one slot, forever? (Exaggregating here, I know)
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Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
This. There are so many areas that deserve more attention in my eyes and could more easily improve gameplay experience. And not just at the top end which is laughably un-implemented and imbalanced.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Below are my views in response to the people saying, 'leave CoP as is':
I have a shaman that is 16 AA from starting CoP (520 aa spent) and my paladin will be there relatively soon (after some tomes.) I play more than the average person, but less than the hard core. My honest perception is that CoP looks like a big huge large massive giant mountainous wall in character progression. Maybe they will turn out not to be that bad, but from a semi knew guy, this is my perspective. My assumption is that players with more casual play schedules, and no access to ringers, are never/rarely going to finish CoP.
That said, I am going to do them because they are so powerful, I need to farm charm cash anyway, and I enjoy playing SoD.
I am trying to convey the feeling of hopelessness that CoP represents to knew and casual players. I'm not saying give things to people for nothing, but something needs done to change perception and allot for quicker rewards...
I have a shaman that is 16 AA from starting CoP (520 aa spent) and my paladin will be there relatively soon (after some tomes.) I play more than the average person, but less than the hard core. My honest perception is that CoP looks like a big huge large massive giant mountainous wall in character progression. Maybe they will turn out not to be that bad, but from a semi knew guy, this is my perspective. My assumption is that players with more casual play schedules, and no access to ringers, are never/rarely going to finish CoP.
That said, I am going to do them because they are so powerful, I need to farm charm cash anyway, and I enjoy playing SoD.
I am trying to convey the feeling of hopelessness that CoP represents to knew and casual players. I'm not saying give things to people for nothing, but something needs done to change perception and allot for quicker rewards...