Lest anybody think that this is actually me or that I would ever be masochistic enough to play a rogue, I haven't played SoD in a very long time (years?). So whoever the Fuwok is, it isn't me.
Cella/Crystalis nerf
- Thread starter cian2
- Start date
Lest anybody think that this is actually me or that I would ever be masochistic enough to play a rogue, I haven't played SoD in a very long time (years?). So whoever the Fuwok is, it isn't me.
CharmCitysKing
Dalayan Elder
Solo's post was solid. An increase to the DPS and a decrease to the healing ability would solve the crystalis/cella problem imo
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This is a LITTLE bit of an exaggeration. The ring is not tier 9, no its not where it was but it most definitely not tier 9. The other loot on him was actually largely untouched and is most definitely still rewarding for the fight.
jew_nose_it
Dalayan Master
I just want to quote this and say I completely agree. I honestly can't believe this is your logic woldaff.
What does surge of memories even do? It's an 80 mana clicky?
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You two seem not to understand that this is an argument of magnitude. So I made you a handy dandy paint chart.
Now, as you can see a character at B can do content at tier C and be more powerful, and likely be able to do the content easier! But compare that to a character at A doing content at tier B. That is a much greater increase! That sort of increase is what makes old content obsolete. When the players at A become more and more common and filter throughout the lower tiers, it starts to make more and more tiers worthless!
Even worse, now that we are adding a new tier, where do we put it? Do we keep doing the same increase of power the last two tiers did? Or do we put it back to a curve in line with the rest of the game? Either way - we do not really want the large hump in the middle of the game anyway.
Do tomes explain some of it? Absolutely. That is why we are spreading tomes out and reducing exp required to get fully expyified. But a large part of this is the "fun" item clickies that permeated the later tiers. We can totally talk about things that raise all the little bubbles in the chart equally, but we do not want spikes like we currently have!
This also should explain why pointing to singular items that were previously overpowered is useful, but does not really contradict the need to balance the later tiers. There are totally items throughout the tiers that are extremely powerful even on their own. But they are not all sitting in a big group on one tier!
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Basically what I'm trying to say is that one guild gets to enjoy all the items in the game. That guild is FWF. Yes they do all the content first but its a real punch to the dick that when other guilds are knocking at the door everything gets nerfed.
What you should do is lower the healing output of the stupid cella and increase some DD component to it and make those weapons fun. You basically ruined the FG weapon and ruined the taesh weapon as a viable melee weapon for priest casters. If I remember correctly a while back ago you guys made priest viable dps weapons to give them something else to do and now you're taking them away.
Please make up your minds on what to do. As a shaman these weapons are now garabge and worthless in bear form.
What you should do is lower the healing output of the stupid cella and increase some DD component to it and make those weapons fun. You basically ruined the FG weapon and ruined the taesh weapon as a viable melee weapon for priest casters. If I remember correctly a while back ago you guys made priest viable dps weapons to give them something else to do and now you're taking them away.
Please make up your minds on what to do. As a shaman these weapons are now garabge and worthless in bear form.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
so what i am seeing here seems to be, adding unique procs/effects/clickies on items makes it too hard to balance them with regards to older content remaining relevant, and new content not spiraling out of control.
is this implying that future content will be limited to smaller incremental upgrades in the form of ac/hp/mana/stats and that anything else with item progression will be cast aside? i guess that is an almost impossible question to answer given that its the future and is still under development, but lets be honest a lot of these newer 'overpowered' items are that just because they don't fit that incremental increase type of item progression.
That can cause an issue when compared to previous items/content, but they are fun, is the stresser about content and item progression more important than making things more fun? There are better solutions to fix whatever balancing issues than pulling out these unique items or doing your best to obsolete them through changes. Some have already been covered so there is no need to talk about specific things here.
Also i really don't need to respond to this but my internet sod accomplishments were being belittled. In no way at all whatsoever did any of these items, before all the nerfs hit, allowed fwf to do anything that any other guild was unable to do, and implying this was the case is just a poor rationalization for other guilds inability to compete.
is this implying that future content will be limited to smaller incremental upgrades in the form of ac/hp/mana/stats and that anything else with item progression will be cast aside? i guess that is an almost impossible question to answer given that its the future and is still under development, but lets be honest a lot of these newer 'overpowered' items are that just because they don't fit that incremental increase type of item progression.
That can cause an issue when compared to previous items/content, but they are fun, is the stresser about content and item progression more important than making things more fun? There are better solutions to fix whatever balancing issues than pulling out these unique items or doing your best to obsolete them through changes. Some have already been covered so there is no need to talk about specific things here.
Also i really don't need to respond to this but my internet sod accomplishments were being belittled. In no way at all whatsoever did any of these items, before all the nerfs hit, allowed fwf to do anything that any other guild was unable to do, and implying this was the case is just a poor rationalization for other guilds inability to compete.
Yes and no. It depends what the effects are, how many of them are in one zone, how many are on single mobs, and what sorts of things are you giving up to have the effect.
Not really, but it is implying that future content will make sure to spread new effects out at rates similar in other tiers. If we want to make a class more fun with some new interesting ability, then the way to implement that is, 9 times out of 10, through making that ability a part of the class with some sort of progression throughout the tiers. Alternatively, new effects that are carefully balanced with downsides might also be something we can think about. I.E. the proc hammers with group heals that cost mana (although it is still up in the air if we hit the right mana cost as of yet). Adding a huge effect without taking the stats/rest of the item into consideration is likely not going to happen as much.
Guilds doing new content get some huge upsides, but they also get huge downsides. Many fights that FWF did were considerably harder at first compared to now. Also, they had to slog through bugs and content balancing. That said, in the latest tier, they also were able to use some very nice items before they were toned down. At the end of the day you can argue that this made it easier or harder, but it is definitely not as simple as Deein is portraying it. If anyone should decrying this change as particularly unfair,it should be the guilds prior to CW in tier, who had no chance to use these items at all.
Obscenitor
Dalayan Elder
I think people are overplaying the impact these weapons had on raids. Most fights at our tier do so much aoe damage at any given interval that the benefit from the minor pad healing the proc provided is downplayed almost entirely by the fact that you are ghealing every 6 seconds anyways.
Also, I think the majority of people are just excited about the novelty of having a reason to melee, not the proc specifically. With the way the proc is currently, it disincentives a healer from meleeing almost entirely unless they want to swap weapons. Maybe the weapons should have a proc more akin to cleric ancient hammer.
Also, I think the majority of people are just excited about the novelty of having a reason to melee, not the proc specifically. With the way the proc is currently, it disincentives a healer from meleeing almost entirely unless they want to swap weapons. Maybe the weapons should have a proc more akin to cleric ancient hammer.
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I feel like that proc should cost a lot less mana. You don't want it to drain a significant amount of mana over a long fight. It defeats the purpose of the near free minor amount of healing it provides.
Make it proc like, zealots strike or whatever at no mana cost or significantly reduce the mana drain in my opinion.
Make it proc like, zealots strike or whatever at no mana cost or significantly reduce the mana drain in my opinion.
sheer1
Dalayan Elder
i agree sort of, but i still really enjoy the idea of on item letting the player alter their style a bit and play the class a different way. admittedly i am also a arpg person and that approach is way way more effective there, mostly since balancing/tiers/progression isn't really a thing.
there was going to be some examples here of how that item swapping to alter play style approach applies to me, a bard, but honestly the bard class is sort of set up to take advantage of that idea already with instruments and what not. Really i would urge not taking unique play style changing items off the table for future item development. they are fun and can offer a different view on things that, after playing a certain class for countless raids, offers a refreshing take that can re-energize people. Not all things need to be integrated into the class through all leveling/raiding. I think when these items were originally nerfed last year someone suggested adding a heal proc to priest classes as an inherit ability and taking all heal procs off all weapons, and maybe that is a way you guys will want to go eventually, but to me that sounds boring.
back to the original topic that made this thread start in the first place, its pretty clear how much healers adore their neato proccing weapons, not because they were trivializing content or anything, but it was something else to look foward to and do while hitting those heal macros over and over again.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
First off, your "power gain" chart is just your imagination of things. The reality is that power gain is exponential from the very beginning. (although its not too far off from reality)
The second thing to consider is that the power jump at T9-13 is not due to OP items that marza made (Barring a few exceptions). If you want to complain about OP items, complain about early sanctum and spires, because those, statistically, are the biggest stat jumps in the game. Marza gave us much less stat gain in trade for a few interesting clickies/effects (very few of which were really ever OP)
The real problem at hand, that somehow is getting ignored and attempted to be fixed through rampant gear nerfs is tomes. My character gained ~1000 mana from t9 to 11, and 32% dps through the tomes/focuses those tiers offered. With extra FT and MC and manaclickies(yes they are t11), it equated to me doing 50-100% more damage on a given fight, and ~50% more on burn phases (through my t11 spell and tomes).
Similar things happened to every class. T10-11 netted massive stat gains, and then tomes multiplied all of those gains by varying amounts. This did result in a huge boost in character power, but it really was not because marza (aka t12-13) put in a bunch of OP items. Marza put in some better weapons, because casters had gained a lot more through tomes, and meele needed a way to keep up, and then just made content that was challenging for the players who had beat all the t11 stuff and obtained its gear.
This is your problem. Marza content loot was only ever a tiny part of the problem, and the extent to which it was nerfed is just offensive/depressing to anyone who has done the content (because it just simply IS harder than anything before it), but the rewards really are mostly just normal-style upgrades to t11 stuff. T11 was so amazing though, that you need even better gear for it to feel worth the epic fight you just spent countless hours learning.
The second thing to consider is that the power jump at T9-13 is not due to OP items that marza made (Barring a few exceptions). If you want to complain about OP items, complain about early sanctum and spires, because those, statistically, are the biggest stat jumps in the game. Marza gave us much less stat gain in trade for a few interesting clickies/effects (very few of which were really ever OP)
The real problem at hand, that somehow is getting ignored and attempted to be fixed through rampant gear nerfs is tomes. My character gained ~1000 mana from t9 to 11, and 32% dps through the tomes/focuses those tiers offered. With extra FT and MC and manaclickies(yes they are t11), it equated to me doing 50-100% more damage on a given fight, and ~50% more on burn phases (through my t11 spell and tomes).
Similar things happened to every class. T10-11 netted massive stat gains, and then tomes multiplied all of those gains by varying amounts. This did result in a huge boost in character power, but it really was not because marza (aka t12-13) put in a bunch of OP items. Marza put in some better weapons, because casters had gained a lot more through tomes, and meele needed a way to keep up, and then just made content that was challenging for the players who had beat all the t11 stuff and obtained its gear.
This is your problem. Marza content loot was only ever a tiny part of the problem, and the extent to which it was nerfed is just offensive/depressing to anyone who has done the content (because it just simply IS harder than anything before it), but the rewards really are mostly just normal-style upgrades to t11 stuff. T11 was so amazing though, that you need even better gear for it to feel worth the epic fight you just spent countless hours learning.
oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
specifically talking about the healing procs: Why didn't you just nerf the healing done instead making it cost more mana? i don't think people care about how much it heals, its just neat that it heals and gives priest an excuse to melee. From what i can tell everyones bitching cause they can't melee anymore cause it just drains all their mana away.
Waldo you say you don't want people to be able to use it to heal groups and have to do nothing else. above solution would fix that. i mean honestly unless you exp'ing in a raid zone or doing some hardcore citadel you're casting a HoT and going afk anyways your mana never goes down unless you're nuking too and even then its still hard to really lose mana. so anyways revert it to the way it was before and tone down the healing, or add some stupid nuke thing like some other people said. make it a NOVELTY, not something that people want to "utilize" all clickys should be made that way imo unless its like the Vah back that you have to Quest for 30 years before you can get it! so people will quit bitchin about it!
idk im terrible at this adding input thing. i hope this all makes sense.
Waldo you say you don't want people to be able to use it to heal groups and have to do nothing else. above solution would fix that. i mean honestly unless you exp'ing in a raid zone or doing some hardcore citadel you're casting a HoT and going afk anyways your mana never goes down unless you're nuking too and even then its still hard to really lose mana. so anyways revert it to the way it was before and tone down the healing, or add some stupid nuke thing like some other people said. make it a NOVELTY, not something that people want to "utilize" all clickys should be made that way imo unless its like the Vah back that you have to Quest for 30 years before you can get it! so people will quit bitchin about it!
idk im terrible at this adding input thing. i hope this all makes sense.
Vitali
Dalayan Master
Basically ANYTHING with the same or slightly higher proc rate then summoned hammer you get at t1.
Code:
Crystalis
[MAGIC ITEM] [LORE ITEM] [NO DROP]
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 1H Blunt Atk Delay: 24
DMG: 42 AC: 15
Focus Effect: Rending Anarchy
Magic DMG: 6
Effect: Divine Force (Melee Proc, 16%)
Skill Mod: 1H Blunt +15
STR: +30 DEX: +30 CHA: +25 WIS: +25 HP: +225 MANA: +250
SV FIRE: +15 SV COLD: +30 SV MAGIC: +5
Flowing Thought: +1
WT: 2.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: CLR DRU SHM
Race: ALLWith this, it just combines what we've used for the last 9 tiers for meleeing/ keeping it interactive/ enjoyable and just wraps it into an on tier item stat wise. Proc rate is only slightly better then the hammer, doesnt heal, just some added DPS. If you (the staff/ debs who make this all happer) feel this version of Crystalis would be a bit OP still, remove the magic damage or maybe the focus and switch it with something else.
My biggest point is that a melee item that allows us to melee and use shield procs like Anthem are fun, that's all. They aren't necessary, no game breaking, just fun.
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Given you say that my chart is completely wrong, then go into explaining all the reasons you think it is generally correct, I am not going to respond to this first part directly.
Who is ignoring tomes? This was addressed earlier in the thread. We are changing tomes, where they drop, and how hard it is to get them all done.
Who is saying this is all Marza? Exactly no one. We are hitting things that need to be hit, regardless of what Dev they come from. Marza's items very well may be just an extension of the overpowered items below the tier he came in at. Regardless of your view of that, I am glad you agree that T10-11 began to give way too big (overpowered in your words) items.
Oh also, as far as Melee/Caster divide, we found out that quite a few a lot of the latest fights had a 0 left in for resists expecting that it auto calculated like a lot of other stats (AC, etc). Not saying you are wrong about the tomes helping casters more, but the problem is not quite so simple.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I dont at all think your graph is completely wrong. My main points were that power increase is going to be exponential almost no matter what, and that the big power boost at the end game is mostly from tomes, not items, and the big problem items are really the early sanctum/spires stuff, that then, everything higher (items and mob difficulty) was balanced around.
I guess I feel a dissonance with the fact that some item nerfs were to things that I didn't see causing balance issues in any way whatsoever (eg: BW Rez, Taesh ear nuke upgrade, and now making cella/crys just about never worth meeleing with)
How did a fast 50% rez mess up anything? If you dont want it fast, I can kind of see that, but at least keep it 50% in line with everything else.
How was a 1000 damage upgrade on the 4 hours reuse ear at all broken after 6? tiers of content? If anything was broken it was the first taesh ear, not the upgrade.
I think the power of Crys/Cella is being overestimated in general, but if healing procs are really a big worry, I think most priests would be fine with just getting some ancient hammer type upgrades over the tiers - high proc rate - lowish damage - no mana drain. Maybe let the SR staff be unique in having more damage/dps, but retaining a health/mana drain (and just remove the heal component) so it really lets healers be half-assed dps on content they are vastly overtiered for.
I dont think CSI9 on 43 robe would have been anything crazy either, but I've given up on that one. Starting to think the nerfed fae robe might be better than 4.3 ever was, regardless.
I don't know what the larger solution is here, but (over) nerfing some of these items that come from extremely difficult content that many people spent massive amount of time obtaining is not the answer. These nerfs have not impacted the overall power any guild's raid force, they just took away something we thought was cool and fun. I can still parse 1500. 10k mana clerics with 24FT and MC9 etc can still heal for a loooong time. I honestly thought the heal weapons were a detriment sometimes because all the priests would be trying to meele and not watching the tank as closely, and the tank would fall over.
I do very much appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to our complaints though. I know its not a fun job, but just knowing that you/devs have read and considered all this makes me more optimistic about it all.
I guess I feel a dissonance with the fact that some item nerfs were to things that I didn't see causing balance issues in any way whatsoever (eg: BW Rez, Taesh ear nuke upgrade, and now making cella/crys just about never worth meeleing with)
How did a fast 50% rez mess up anything? If you dont want it fast, I can kind of see that, but at least keep it 50% in line with everything else.
How was a 1000 damage upgrade on the 4 hours reuse ear at all broken after 6? tiers of content? If anything was broken it was the first taesh ear, not the upgrade.
I think the power of Crys/Cella is being overestimated in general, but if healing procs are really a big worry, I think most priests would be fine with just getting some ancient hammer type upgrades over the tiers - high proc rate - lowish damage - no mana drain. Maybe let the SR staff be unique in having more damage/dps, but retaining a health/mana drain (and just remove the heal component) so it really lets healers be half-assed dps on content they are vastly overtiered for.
I dont think CSI9 on 43 robe would have been anything crazy either, but I've given up on that one. Starting to think the nerfed fae robe might be better than 4.3 ever was, regardless.
I don't know what the larger solution is here, but (over) nerfing some of these items that come from extremely difficult content that many people spent massive amount of time obtaining is not the answer. These nerfs have not impacted the overall power any guild's raid force, they just took away something we thought was cool and fun. I can still parse 1500. 10k mana clerics with 24FT and MC9 etc can still heal for a loooong time. I honestly thought the heal weapons were a detriment sometimes because all the priests would be trying to meele and not watching the tank as closely, and the tank would fall over.
I do very much appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to our complaints though. I know its not a fun job, but just knowing that you/devs have read and considered all this makes me more optimistic about it all.
Probably just as many are now harder than when FWF did them at first.
Especially voidworm.