Bard Procs

Nodnal

Nodnal

Dalayan Elder
I am not sure if it has always worked this way, or if it is currently working as intended, but bards cannot proc while casting songs. I am not sure if this is a client restriction, or a balancing issue, but with bards twisting two dots and 1-3 direct damage spells, this causes our procs to lose a lot of DPS. Regasin brought it to my attention, and I believe has some logs, and I have also tested it and confirmed his theory (that bards cannot proc while casting songs).

Does anyone know if this is how it has always been, or if this is how it is supposed to be?

Thanks a bunch!
 
It's always been this way, at least since 2004. It would be nice to be able to proc while casting, since procs do make up a decent chunk of dps, but even if it's not possible, it's not that bad of a trade off for being able to attack and move while singing.
 
Not sure if it's related but IIRC you can't melee at all while casting and I'd assume that bard procs while casting songs falls under exactly this category. I'd guess if so it's clientside.
 
Yeah, I don't remember if this was always the case or not. Maybe it has been and I haven't noticed until recently. My only concern is that we spend a lot of aa's on procing (Sonic Blades 2,4, and Item Adept 3,6,9) That's 24 aa's that we can't make use of if we're actually paying attention to our class. If this is an unfixable issue obviously I have no problem with it. If there is a way to fix it, then I would be more then happy if we could get an official response on it and have it looked at.

Thank you,
Regasin
 
Manluas said:
Not sure if it's related but IIRC you can't melee at all while casting and I'd assume that bard procs while casting songs falls under exactly this category. I'd guess if so it's clientside.
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Not exactly, since the meleeing/casting thing was bypassed already to allow bards to melee while singing.

While I think it's a shame procs go to waste like this, I would bank that you still have a higher dps while twisting two detrimentals and missing the procs than just pulsing one detrimental and meleeing with procs (albiet lower than the bonus of two detrimentals would be if procs worked while casting).
 
iaeolan said:
Not exactly, since the meleeing/casting thing was bypassed already to allow bards to melee while singing.

While I think it's a shame procs go to waste like this, I would bank that you still have a higher dps while twisting two detrimentals and missing the procs than just pulsing one detrimental and meleeing with procs (albiet lower than the bonus of two detrimentals would be if procs worked while casting).
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Yeah but this doesn't come into effect when you're, lets say, soloing with an enthann blade and using your proc bonus to allow you to stay alive longer. Still doesn't matter though, it's going to be about whether it's fixable or not.
 
iaeolan said:
Not exactly, since the meleeing/casting thing was bypassed already to allow bards to melee while singing.

While I think it's a shame procs go to waste like this, I would bank that you still have a higher dps while twisting two detrimentals and missing the procs than just pulsing one detrimental and meleeing with procs (albiet lower than the bonus of two detrimentals would be if procs worked while casting).
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I agree it is better to twist two dots and two direct damage spells, but I would like my proc AAs to work as much as possible. Like Regasin said, if the client restricts it, then there is nothing that can be done. However, if it could be fixed, it would be much appreciated.
 
Ohh yea, now that you say it I noticed it too!! I'm sure thats not intended to work like that, so I hope the client allows this to be fixed. Please have a look into this. Bards are the masters of procs and singing songs shouldnt really affect that.

If the normal method of just allowing procing while songs are started does not work, maybe there is a way that you could change how bard songs are started? Maybe make them instant cast but let the effects only start to work after the cast time is met or something if thats possible? Just an idea how that might be fixable if the traditional method doesnt work. Or some kind of melody system for offensive spells as well, where you have to cast songs one time and then they will be autotwisted (just some ideas)

Best would be off course just to allow to proc while casting if thats possible...
 
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omg! how much dps i wasted by twisting two dot songs and loosing procs because of that. I dont really see how 2 dots and 2 dd are more dps than 1 dot+ procs and nuking?

with 2.1 percussion mod and no diety bonus i do 243 dmg per tick on both the poison and the disease chant. With DI7 the Proc AA does 220dd, melwin idol 110dd, 171 per tick from anos dagger dot, and anothe 110 or so from obsidian shanker (i didnt really pay attention how much the shanker procs for)...

So since we dont have 2 relic dots to twist I can't see how twisting would be more dps there.

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Point is: Procs are good damage for us bards and loosing them for twisting doesnt seem right, so please see what you can do about it, please =)..
 
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Fairly certain I found the offending code. Should be fixable, with a bit of work (explicitly checks to make sure you aren't casting, would need it to exempt bard spells), if it is in fact a "problem", and not intended behavior.

Until I find out the reasons for it (assuming its not just an oversight), its likely going to stay this way. ((This means your reasons aren't gonna sway the decision at this time) I should have been a lisp coder)
 
Thanks again, Zak.

Who all would know if it was there for a balancing issue, or just an oversight? Just Wiz himself?
 
A series of parses I did back in March shows this issue as well, but there's more to it. At the time I didn't realize the issue was lost procs, but that makes sense. What I saw was for each additional song played (one dot, two dots, or two dots and a dd) the melee dps decreases by ~ 10 pts for a bard with 400 AAs and geared at ~ IP/lower thaz level.

I was going to post the results of that parse, but I'd like to redo it with some different gear (now that the worn item effects are in) and clarify a few issues first. Rest assured, each additional song increased dps above the dps lost in melee (and some minor dps lost in other songs, not sure where that comes from.) Even if the lower dps from procs is unintentional, it is easily made up for by tweaking dps elsewhere. In point of fact, my initial dps parses of bards showed them on the high end of total dps vs. other classes (and that's probably increased with more available mod items). We'll see where it goes when I get time to finish parses >=[.
 
I still am not very keen on the fact that a bard pulsing relic dot and procing would be comparable (and FAR less work) than a bard twisting both dots and a DD or two. Also, I think bard dps is hard to gauge since it is so dependent on gear. Even Felyn who was max tomes for a long time just now started to out dps other bards at his tier due to the lack of a percussion mod.

Maybe the "not procing while casting" thing was put in as a balancing issue, but as many have brought up...why add AAs that help with procs if bards don't have many opportunities to do so in the first place?
 
It's not really comparable. Not anywhere near - Songs add a lot more dps. I'm more curious as to why I saw a slight decrease in song dps with each song added - only 3 dps lost or so per song added but it was puzzling.
 
i think thats because how the songs work. while you cast their tic gets delayed i think. not sure how to describe it, but check your song messages when you twist. unless you make a perfect twist there will always be a slight delay, at least it seems to melike that
 
stickupkid said:
i think thats because how the songs work. while you cast their tic gets delayed i think. not sure how to describe it, but check your song messages when you twist. unless you make a perfect twist there will always be a slight delay, at least it seems to melike that
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Yes, the pulses are not the same as the effects landing. You can easily work this to your advantage getting double casts on things (for instance on something that resists a lot) to ensure that you get the song to land and do not delay your twist. If you are in the process of casting when the pulse is supposed to go off, it will be delayed and go off the instant the song lands and thus be reset to this new time.
The tics of damage from dots are not delayed at all, but can tic at different times so this is not a loss in dps.
Pulse ≠ Tic ≠ Cast time
The three are all semi-independent and you can work them to be at certain times.
I've actually manipulated my pulses to land immediately after another bard's in order for my dot to be the one which is in effect. Likewise I have pulsed mezzes immediately after dots tic in order to keep a mob mezzed while still doing dot dps. You can time the pulses and be aware of the dot durations in order to keep them in this state as well. The same goes for using single cast effects of DDs and timing them with pulses of a mez so the mob is mezzed right after DD wakes them.

So... this was a tangent, but the main fact is that dps will not be affected directly by the innate mechanics of how song pulses can be delayed.
 
Allielyn said:
It's not really comparable. Not anywhere near - Songs add a lot more dps. I'm more curious as to why I saw a slight decrease in song dps with each song added - only 3 dps lost or so per song added but it was puzzling.
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Yes, I would agree my statement was a bit misleading since I have no parses to back it up, however, a bard's main dps is from their relic dot. Not twisting that second dot and continually pulsing relic along with procing may not be exactly comparable, but I am curious to how far the numbers are off (since our second dot is about half of our relic). I would say that for the work involved, I will probably just use relic dot and auto attack while boxing Felyn instead of twisting to gain a small boost in dps (I still probably won't since I am an efficiency whore, but in theory I would).

Like I have said from the begining, if this is fixable and isn't in place for balancing, then I would love to see it changed. If it is unfixable, then nothing we can do. However, if it is for balancing, I would love to argue against that fact since we lose so much dps and have very nice AAs wasted on what is a nice little boost to dps.
 
I agree that the main problem with this is the negation of a large sum of AAs for using the core class function.
 
Thank you Zak for looking into this. This will also help out the secondary bards in raids/groups that are unable to use their primary DoT songs as another bard is already using them. (Again if this is fixable/oversight) As that provides a very steep reduction in dps, and will also make me stop feeling like I'm slacking when I proc :p
 
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