Bane DMG - too many types

[Haenir]

Currently there are 15 types of bane damage. Here is the list:

1. Ancient Race
2. Chaotic
3. Construct/Clockwork
4. Dragonkin
5. Greatkin
6. Humanoid Monster
7. Insect/Arachnid
8. Lesser Elemental
9. Magical
10. Monster
11. Nature
12. Planar Elemental
13. Reptile/Amphibian
14. Undead
15. Young Race

This results in myself (and other melees I've spoken with) carting about two bags full of swaps in pursuit of max dps -- not even going to touch on Ranger inventory antics, but I hear it is worse for them. It is true that bane items usefulness tends to be limited to certain zones, and as a result I can usually bank ~1/2 of my bane items on any given raid night.

However, I think in addition to inventory issues, the number of bane types hinders item progression with bane scattered (i.e., because there are so many bane types, there are relatively fewer items with bane of any particular type) and in many cases jumping from bane of 0-2 to bane of 7-9, rather than scaling smoothly (perhaps this isn't true and its just a matter of bad wiki data and T1 - T6 content being skipped?).

I think that this list should be condensed to only 7 types of bane damage (this would be more comparable to the number of caster foci).

1. Humanoid - young race + ancient race + humanoid monster (something racist in that gnolls/liodreth are humanoid monsters and not young/ancient race, just saying) + reptile/amphibian (iksar/froglok, why wouldn't they be ancient race?)
2. Nature - insect/arachnid + reptile/amphibian + nature
3. Unnatural - monster + magical + chaotic + construct/clockwork
4. Planar - lesser elemental + planar elemental
5. Undead
6. Greatkin
7. Dragonkin

 

[AngryCow]

The wiki isn't a reliable source for current bane on items. Many items that have been on the wiki for years have lost or gained bane damage after the most recent bane change. Every-time I see an item linked that has bane nowadays, I check the wiki on that item to update it, because yeah you're right not a lot of T6's get killed frequently atm.

 

[donfolstar3]

This is a great idea in terms of QoL and common sense. "more comparable to the number of caster foci" = pretty solid balancing reason too.

I really like your suggestion list with two minor tweaks:
-#3 is a bit too broad and the name is meh. Either monster or construct split into the 8th bane damage would make the remaining group more defined- Supernatural or Monsters or Construct or Magical
-#4 probably should be called "Elemental" since everything is an elemental but not all of them are planar

 

[Tevinter]

On the topic of bane, where is the bane damage on dhuro/FG ear/scales??? Im all for reducing the amount of bane types to reduce the number of swaps needed, but would put construct in its own cateegory

 

[Nwaij]

This is a great idea in terms of QoL and common sense. "more comparable to the number of caster foci" = pretty solid balancing reason too.

Lets see...

1. Cold
2. Fire
3. Magic
4. Poison
5. Disease
6. Damage Increment
7. Affliction Enhancement
8. Mana Conservation
9. Reagent Conservation
10. Range Increment
11. Healing Increment
12. Companion Strength
13. Companion Health
14. Bane Enchantment
15. Controll Enchantment
16. Duration Increment
17. Casting Speed

Lucky you, your suggestion about bane types being comparable in numbers to the ammount of caster focus effects is already implemented!
Granted, not every caster needs every focus at all times. Its kinda, you know, like not every melee needs every bane at all times. Also keep in mind that you should think of bane as a nice bonus that occasionally happens on some items, not something you are entitled to.

 

[huey]

Maybe the OP should have taken a different angle than comparison between those two numbers, but you know full well hardly anyone all that serious is ever gonna consider the banes as nice bonuses that happen occasionally, lol. It's a much lesser version of saying casters aren't entitled to something like cast speed inc., and it's just a bonus they should be happy about maybe showing up on some armor. Half the folks in this game are min/max types, at least to some degree, and the bane was never gonna be taken much differently regardless of intent. I'm not even saying I'm all for the op's argument, but your counter is kinda silly. As has been mentioned though, it would be nice if the bane itemization was at least completed at some point.

 

[Kedrin]

Lets see...

1. Cold
2. Fire
3. Magic
4. Poison
5. Disease
6. Damage Increment
7. Affliction Enhancement
8. Mana Conservation
9. Reagent Conservation
10. Range Increment
11. Healing Increment
12. Companion Strength
13. Companion Health
14. Bane Enchantment
15. Controll Enchantment
16. Duration Increment
17. Casting Speed

Lucky you, your suggestion about bane types being comparable in numbers to the ammount of caster focus effects is already implemented!
Granted, not every caster needs every focus at all times. Its kinda, you know, like not every melee needs every bane at all times. Also keep in mind that you should think of bane as a nice bonus that occasionally happens on some items, not something you are entitled to.

Your post is pointless, yet this always seems to be your go to. Having less body types or compressing banes together is a great idea (yet probably will not happen). This isn't the way to discourage good ideas. Just because one class has to deal with bullshit doesn't mean it is ok for another class to also have to deal with bullish, even if your list was valid, and it isn't.

 

[donfolstar3]

Lets see...

1. Cold
2. Fire
3. Magic
4. Poison
5. Disease
6. Damage Increment
7. Affliction Enhancement
   
8. Bane Enchantment

and a whole lot of stuff not related to spell damage. Well, conservation and CSI, but not exactly apples to apples. That laundry list doesn't even apply to all casters as you pointed out. Nor does the list of banes consider other things melees need like haste and +atk and the bestest weapons and cheetah blood to rub on them. As for "something nice that happens sometimes", have you met or ever interacted with anyone who actually plays this game? Seriously? Nobody thinks that way. Must. Have. All. Buffs. And. Gears. Always.

Bane was kind of half finished and forgotten. Maybe there doesn't have to be as few as 7 types, but the number could drop to 10ish and everyone isn't going to immediately roll a melee and casters probably won't even bat an eye at that horrible affront to them.

 

[Tevinter]

Maybe the OP should have taken a different angle than comparison between those two numbers, but you know full well hardly anyone all that serious is ever gonna consider the banes as nice bonuses that happen occasionally, lol. It's a much lesser version of saying casters aren't entitled to something like cast speed inc., and it's just a bonus they should be happy about maybe showing up on some armor. Half the folks in this game are min/max types, at least to some degree, and the bane was never gonna be taken much differently regardless of intent. I'm not even saying I'm all for the op's argument, but your counter is kinda silly. As has been mentioned though, it would be nice if the bane itemization was at least completed at some point.

I said it in a thread about neat deity procs etc and i'll say it again, if it isnt purely cosmetic, people will try to min/max it

 

[Thade]

Lets see...

1. Cold
2. Fire
3. Magic
4. Poison
5. Disease
6. Damage Increment
7. Affliction Enhancement
8. Mana Conservation
9. Reagent Conservation
10. Range Increment
11. Healing Increment
12. Companion Strength
13. Companion Health
14. Bane Enchantment
15. Controll Enchantment
16. Duration Increment
17. Casting Speed

Lucky you, your suggestion about bane types being comparable in numbers to the ammount of caster focus effects is already implemented!
Granted, not every caster needs every focus at all times. Its kinda, you know, like not every melee needs every bane at all times. Also keep in mind that you should think of bane as a nice bonus that occasionally happens on some items, not something you are entitled to.

Nwaij you know better than to post such nonsense. Almost no class needs that many focuses, and most classes don't actively care about most of those. Melee need every bane in some variety or another. And to top it off they need half of the spell caster focus effects at the top end.

There are TWENTY-SEVEN bane types, that's fucking absurd. It needs to be culled down to ~10 or so, 5 that you need all the time and should expect to have on gear, and five that you should be reasonably expected to have as swaps.

 

[sabuti]

Bane Enchantment
Controll Enchantment

giggles

 

[Nwaij]

Oh I'm full aware that my list is silly and about no caster cares for the full set of foci, except necros who minmax, and maybe enchanters. The quoted line was a ridiculous not-at-all researched statement though, wich I felt the urge to address in a sarcastic way.

Back on topic:

I'm getting to the point where I start to think that bane needs to go altogether, noone seems to like it anyways. Since that doesn't seem to be happening, I 100% agree that bane implementation should be finished on high end gear. Alas, not my call in either ways.

Also it was stated in the past that melees should not feel entitled to focus effects whatsoever. As we can all tell, that paradigm shifted somewhat in the past. What I kinda do not understand is why people think they need to complain over having to consider so many things they originally were not even meant to have, yet still have, on top of the things they used to have.

Just look at low tiers: melee progression happened via haste and weapon upgrades every other tier, add in some worn attack. Caster progression happened via focus effects and about 6 spells (relics, archaic), just that new spells stopped appearing at ~T7 till Runics, wich are arguably situationally at best.

Then at some point, melees got focus effects show up un their gear as well, as a BONUS. Just that Joe Minmaxer did not think of it as a nice bonus, but as an OMG MUST HAVE item. Oddly enough, more or less the exact same situation was reproduced when bane was reworked, and now here we are.

 

[Haenir]

I really like your suggestion list with two minor tweaks:
-#3 is a bit too broad and the name is meh. Either monster or construct split into the 8th bane damage would make the remaining group more defined- Supernatural or Monsters or Construct or Magical
-#4 probably should be called "Elemental" since everything is an elemental but not all of them are planar

Yeah I wasn't 100% happy with my categories either, I like both of these, and 7 is by no means the magic number -- just a better number than 15.

There are TWENTY-SEVEN bane types,

How'd you get this number?

Lucky you, your suggestion about bane types being comparable in numbers to the ammount of caster focus effects is already implemented!

I suppose I should have been specific, I was comparing the amount of caster focus effects that are damage multipliers to the amount of bane, since these seem to be the most logically comparable. The list I had in my head was elemental foci + affliction + damage + bane for a total of 8. Sorry I didn't spell that out for you.

Also keep in mind that you should think of bane as a nice bonus that occasionally happens on some items, not something you are entitled to.

I don't understand this, what do you mean by entitlement here? Are you saying that bane is not intended to be a part of progression for melees? As a mechanic worn bane has a significant effect on melee damage.

Back in my day we wore cloth pants on our heads and used a rusty dagger to kill things. Why can't you be happy you have stuff with numbers and things!

Thanks grandpa. (Seriously though, a lot of your posts come off like this - not necessarily a bad thing, but noticeable.)

 

[huey]

Nwaij: Yeah I semi-tried to carefully word my response towards knowing your post was sarcasm. Your last post was what the one before should have been. Still though, nothing affecting character power like this stuff in a game like this that attracts min/maxers is ever gonna be considered an optional bonus, and probably shouldn't be implemented as such. Maybe just my opinion idk....

 

[donfolstar3]

Oh I'm full aware that my list is silly and about no caster cares for the full set of foci, except necros who minmax, and maybe enchanters. The quoted line was a ridiculous not-at-all researched statement though, wich I felt the urge to address in a sarcastic way.

Always a treat to be trolled by staff with what everyone recognizes as nonsense.

 

[Thade]

I'm dumb. I went and looked, there's 29 listed on the wiki, but I believe your number of 15 is mostly correct. I believe there are a few stray bane items that no longer have bane that works, but 15 is probably correct.

 

[fxattack]

Bane damage should be removed from weapons and put onto augments that you have to visit a forge in order to remove or replace. It could be a lot of fun to build unique and custom weapons in this way while freeing up precious bag space.

 

[DodoBot]

Oh I'm full aware that my list is silly and about no caster cares for the full set of foci, except necros who minmax, and maybe enchanters.

I run a full set of foci minus healing and with bane/reagent con available on swaps... One day I'll be able to keep them all in full time tho. (PS Twins Neck - where are you???)

 

[sabuti]

Bane damage should be removed from weapons and put onto augments that you have to visit a forge in order to remove or replace. It could be a lot of fun to build unique and custom weapons in this way while freeing up precious bag space.

that sounds aids cause that would totally get implemented as "change your weapon augs before every raid encounter."

Also weapons with bane aren't what take up bag slots, it's item bane

 

[burt6]

Casting speed increment is something that should be a fun bonus on an item and not something you are entitled to.