A Really Unpopular Suggestion

[Loxo]

It's been suggested before in the midst of another thread, so I would like to take a stab at suggesting the duration for beneficial spells that effect other players be greatly reduced. The timers for these buffs allow for a single character to greatly enhance a raid or group's ability for it's entire duration, while only being present for only seconds or minutes prior to a raid or group starting. This seems to really contradict the spirit of the rule of not allowing buffs from outside of a raid in particular. It's also extremely conducive to info hoarding of characters from retired players.

One player with access to a relic enchanter can buff a raid with sb jb for the raids entire duration without any enchanter being present in the raid. The same is true for raego, relic mage ds, focus / won, and shaman stats (to a lesser degree as usually only one of these gets soulbonded by a second shaman, and their duration is lower.) As characters have accrued over the years, buff bots are often available for all of these buffs.

So, I'm suggesting these buffs durations, and in relative proportion their mana costs, be reduced to an average of ~36.0 minutes; along with an adjustment of Duration Increment to being ~7.5% to ~10% per rank. Obviously I'm not stating the value 36.0 minutes as the absolute, it just seems about right for a recast before a person leaves allowing time to find a replacement, or... to grudgingly log in a box and get them to the raid or group.

This would change Duration Increment focus effects and spell casting reinforcement AA's from being a negligible utility other than making a buffbot more awesome to actually effecting the mana efficiency regarding buffs of the character possessing it.

Beneficial self buffs are not an issue, as they only effect...the character who is present and casting them. Spells such as:
Necro / Mage / BST pet buffs
HP Shielding self buffs (Bulwark / Aegis of Magic)
Vessel / Avatar
Regen buffs (Mask of the Hunter / Shape of the Wild)
Ranger self buff procs
Illusions (not self buffs, but not exactly raego either)
etc.

I do undestand soulbond would be relegated to being used only for keeping some self-buffs soulbound and one mana-intensive raid/group buff before a dicey encounter to help reduce recovery time in case of a wipe.

This does not solve any issue of having to box in a missing person's class for raids. Or the issue of backgearing new players versus boxing in a retired/missing player's character. Nothing other than more obsessively-committed-robot-players on the server will probably ever alleviate that burden on a raiding guild, in this or any other game.

It would though encourage players to make use of, and become more familiar with resources outside of buffbots to improve their performance grouping, soloing, duoing, or raiding. Gear arrangements and clickies, less often used spells (recourses, natures preservation+potg/won, songs that aren't relic: tarhyl's and lceas/murk), instead of becoming utterly dependent on being completely raid buffed to do anything.

Summary: A character should be present for their benefit to another character, a group, or a raid to remain. Someone in a raid usually dies or leaves, or missed an sb for whatever goddamn reason at raid start time, resist buffs get clicked and recast to arrange for buff room depending on the next set of trash or boss encouters, all resulting in rebuffs every 30-60 minutes anyway. Extremely long buff durations just result in more buff bots to be hoarded, traded, or argued over, so let them either fade away or actually be boxed in requiring some effort other than logging them in for buffs.

 

[Loxo]

Sans enchanter would be mostly pugs >Tier 7. Just as often would be a non-relic class present, but relic buffs pre-raid.

 

[Draeos]

What raid are you doing without an Enchanter present

this

 

[Boehm]

Yes, more tedium less fun. I'm all for it.

Oh. this is whining about competition. nevermind

 

[Loxo]

What is whining about competition?

This was brought up a while ago, in the middle of another thread. Some thoughts happened and here we are.

 

[Boehm]

You don't like other groups killling your nameds with bot buffs? whats hard to understand about that?

 

[Loxo]

Not a problem I really have. As far as buff bots, I've got the full arsenal.

As far as fun vs. tedium though, waiting for everyone in a group to get together for those buffs to get cast and swapping characters in and out to make sure they all get their proper buffs is pretty tedious. Presumption is also kind of tedious to deal with.

 

[Boehm]

How is a group not logging in buff bots every 36 minutes not tedious. Do you play this game? Apparently not, since you guild was boxing you Wed.

Let's make this clear. This affects new 65s a lot more then it does you or me. And it will totally gut the desireability of damage casters in groups, who are already extremely problematic prior to tier 9 as it is.

Ok, so a group will now box in a chanter. do you think they will be more or less likely to invite a rogue rather then a dps caster who will blow oom after ten minutes and be doing the shitty baseline dps they do the rest of the group?

I, also, believe you feel this is somehow in your self interest. I mean you have a buff bot army right? How would it affect you? Do you box a relic druid, like me and every other tier necro I know? Oh so, it wouldn't at all.

So really this is about not wanting T7 pugs killing your guilds back gear.

 

[vistachiri]

This is probably the worst suggestion I've seen on these boards. It was a terrible suggestion during that thread as well.

It does absolutely nothing beneficial in any way whatsoever, and the stated benefits you listed are pretty obviously reaching because you know exactly how weak your point is and are scrambling for anything to prop it up. I'm not really sure why you're making it in the first place, but fair enough.

The fact you point to duration increment and spell casting reinforcement as being " a negligible utility", kind of points to the fact you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, because they are great, and pretty sought after actually.

The point about mana efficiency is reaching so hard I'm pretty sure if you keep trying to make it you are going to sprain your shoulder. Any shaman can easily point out how terrible having to frequently cast a million separate buffs on people was. Not to mention y'know, it not being beneficial to anyone at all in the first place.

The only thing this would do is inconvenience pretty much every single player on the server and I'd bet on a substantial drop in groups as a result of it (pretty much box an enchanter or a bard for every single group ever, or forget about caster dps except for necros). Due to how awful groups get (especially for heavy mana using classes) without particular buffs. People already end up calling groups due to lack of tanks and healers. While I realize that isn't particular common once you get into raiding and people start tossing around info to things, it sure as hell is during the low game. Crippling them further sounds like a bad idea, and is.

"It would though encourage players to make use of, and become more familiar with resources outside of buffbots to improve their performance grouping, soloing, duoing, or raiding. Gear arrangements and clickies, less often used spells (recourses, natures preservation+potg/won, songs that aren't relic: tarhyl's and lceas/murk), instead of becoming utterly dependent on being completely raid buffed to do anything."

Players already make use of those when certain buffs run out, as others are still going. Hell I do it all the time. Also I'm not sure how you think won is a lesser used spell. I'm also not sure how you think lceas is a lesser used song. Oh and when grouping with an sk or necro (which I actually do fairly often) I pretty much have recourses on all the time, pretty sure thats not uncommon provided the people you are playing with are not bad. Not only do you make a bad point, but it's filled with bad information.

Gear arrangements? Like the resist gear everyone already uses? Or the melee gear for healers, that again everyone already uses?

Clickies? Really? Which ones. By all means lets discuss them. Most of them would not even come close to applying to this kind of situation. Those that might to some extent (tboots for example) are already kept around by most people as a just in case thing.

I'd love to know too which raid is logging in a 2nd shaman to sb stats, especially because there should already be one in the raid.

Let's not forget that with most classes there already are uses for them which they have to be present for besides buffs.

Oh and it would completely gut the usefullness of soulbond to boot. Clearly a great idea.

 

[Loxo]

So really this is about not wanting T7 pugs killing your guilds back gear.

No, if it was I would have said something about T7 pugs killing my guilds back gear. Not an issue.

I said nature's preservation+won as lesser used, as in the combination of the two when a druid is in the group in place of a cleric. Instead of the current method of buffing with a cleric then camping them if you're healing with a druid.

I also said songs that *aren't* relic: tarhyl's or lcea's/murk.

The fact you point to duration increment and spell casting reinforcement as being " a negligible utility", kind of points to the fact you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, because they are great, and pretty sought after actually.

I guess I should have very carefully specified negligible utility for 60+ spells, that generally already last an hour or more. I mean, I outlined the problem spells already as such, but I guess I could have been more specific. And yes they are sought after, especially when they can add 25-40% to buffs that already last 3-4 hours, effectively making them never fade even for the longest grind sessions.

 

[Boehm]

Nice edit loxo. Lololol. you removed all the t7 pug reference.

I'm not arguing with people who change their original post as much as you do.

 

[Obscenitor]

Let me suggest then that all 6 man content be rebalanced to account for the fact that the group will be missing at least one priest's buffs (rfocus, raego, or won), most likely 18 less mana regen, anywhere from 77-17% less haste..

You up to the task Loxo? The staff here volunteers their time we have no idea exactly how much work it would take to normalize all content based on a change like this.. but I am guessing it would be a pretty huge time sink which would take away from fun things like Ikisith phase 2.

Why am I even here I don't even play this game/have sod installed/own a computer.

 

[vistachiri]

I also said songs that *aren't* relic: tarhyl's or lcea's/murk.

Read that wrong then. Which songs? Really, lcea's is most often played when medding. Also blademaster is pretty heavily used in the first place.

I guess I should have very carefully specified negligible utility for 60+ spells, that generally already last an hour or more. I mean, I outlined the problem spells already as such, but I guess I could have been more specific. And yes they are sought after, especially when they can add 25-40% to buffs that already last 3-4 hours, effectively making them never fade even for the longest grind sessions.

They still fade during grind sessions. Also the buff being longer means it adds even more time, making it more useful, so I'm really not sure how you're still coming up with negligible utility. It's of negligible utility when a buff lasts like 30min, since you will probably just recast it when you refresh anyways as an easy marker of when you did it, and it adds less time with a lesser duration.
60min with 40%=84min
30min with 40%= 42min

Also, this

Let me suggest then that all 6 man content be rebalanced to account for the fact that the group will be missing at least one priest's buffs (rfocus, raego, or won), most likely 18 less mana regen, anywhere from 70-17% less haste..

You up to the task Loxo?

Oh and lets not forget class rebalance.

 

[Loxo]

Nice edit loxo. Lololol. you removed all the t7 pug reference.

I'm not arguing with people who change their original post as much as you do.

My original post was edited once 17 minutes before your first post. There was never anything in it about T7 pugs, trolling is lots of fun or you're more delusional than I apparently am.

 

[Cinn]

I brought up this exact same suggestion in regards to balancing the classes for content months ago.

Buff bots aren't fun and buff durations are absurdly long for the benefit they give.

Constantly buffing also isn't fun.

So where do you draw the line? who knows, but it's worth looking into.

It was more pie in the sky than anything back then but I still stand by it, and I'm not the first to think buffs in this game are ridiculous.

Idea's have been tossed around for years over this exact problem by both the players and the staff and I'm sure threads like these will continue to pop up as people step back and go, "this is pretty much the supidest thing ever!!"

Will a giant shift in balance and game-play ever happen to address this? I have strong doubts. It'd be a ton of work.

Does that mean it isn't a good suggestion to, if possible, solve this problem? Absolutely not.

Velleity, the fact that you're attacking Loxo over this post is sickening and you should probably go crawl back inside your nerd cave and never come out again if you honestly believe that Loxo hasn't put in enough time on this server to make an informed opinion about buff balance.

Is what's stated in the original post the absolute best solution and should be implemented right away? of course not. But the rough draft never is. It's the discussion it sparks that matters.

With an actual beta server in place, why is one so wrong to suggest big change?

 

[Loxo]

Thank any gods that will listen, a voice of reason.

 

[Slaariel]

yeah for what it's worth this is a perennial topic among the devs or really just me talkin to myself i guess. i think slashing cast times/mana cost on all major buffs would be a start (what is up with rfocus??) halving the durations, and so forth. extreme suggestions i have made to myself include making buffs fade if that class leaves the group / raid (even if this bugs out a little not a big deal since casting buffs would be fast and painless) etc etc. it's a thing to be sure don't discount it out of hand with weird tinfoily backgearing conspiracies.

 

[Tarutao]

Summary: A character should be present for their benefit to another character, a group, or a raid to remain.

This is a desirable but very lofty goal. The ramifications of all thus-far proposed changes (at least the ones that don't just plain suck and make some attempt to reach the aforementioned goal) are extreme. For this reason, these ramifications, including but not limited to class balance and desirability in the group, 6man content, and 18man raid paradigms, need to be addressed within a suggestion post in order to bear credibility on this topic.

Thank you all for not flooding this thread with "omg just fix it" posts. That said, if you felt the need to attack someone or their intentions (whether you actually posted them or just lurked the thread), then you should consider not reading this subforum.

 

[stral]

Speaking as an enchanter I'm kind of glad the appeal to me being in a group isn't mana regen (which is exactly what this change would cause). It's like the whole shared mind thing; sure its cool to have but it in absolutely no way makes the game any more fun for me. Boxed chanters everywhere and group stacking becoming commonplace are all I see coming from this. Good in theory, but the ramifications would definitely have to be thought out across the board to decide whether or not the problem is any worse than the solution, especially given the amount of work that would be involved.

 

[Boehm]

Velleity, the fact that you're attacking Loxo over this post is sickening and you should probably go crawl back inside your nerd cave and never come out again if you honestly believe that Loxo hasn't put in enough time on this server to make an informed opinion about buff balance.

Your opinion really means nothing to me at all. You have never said anything I believed was actually intelligent in the time I've known you.

Also, I would like to add that the bitching about game features you don't care for, juxtaposed with this make this statement truly fucking hysterical.