A Really Unpopular Suggestion
- Thread starter Loxo
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Loxo
Dalayan Elder
Thanks for the more constructive posts regarding the topic.
I did not say I expect an immediate massive rebalance, or imply that time and resources should be taken away from development of new content. This is a famously poor troll found on game development forums everywhere, strangely almost always put forth by players who are not actually developers.
If current and future top tier 6man content is dependent on having buffs from classes or characters not participating, rather than those buffs making it easier to accomplish then I don't know what to say about it. I certainly won't say it's bad implementation to develop content based on the way the game is currently played. I do realize it's a possible series of problems specific to a few classes performance in relation others, just like every other change regarding classes or archetypes since the games creation.
I say Duration is of negligible utility, outside of increasing the usefulness of a character as a buff bot, because in a long grind session (terming that as realistically 4-6 hours), with most buffs being 120 minutes - 240 minutes, a character with Duration 0 vs. a character with Duration 8 will cast their buffs 3 or 2 times. The main benefit being a character with Duration 8 will recast the shorter 120 minute spells one less time, saving ~1000 mana over the course of 6 hours. That's a significant gain in theory. However in practice there will be at least 6 breaks for refreshing, grabbing a drink, taking a bio, or any other real life influence that causes downtime. If downtime in a 6-hour grind totals to 6.5 minutes or more, that mana is recovered anyway, effectively negating any mana that would have been saved in theory by the added buff duration. Only 6.5 minutes, out of a quarter of a whole day, is already pretty unrealistic.
I also proposed a 50% to 100%, increase to the effect of Duration Increment in case you missed it, to compensate for it's lowered effect due to lowered buff times. With buffs having to be cast much more often, and taking Mana Conservation focuses and AA's / Specializations into account for each of those casts, Duration Increment would actually begin to have a bearing on mana efficiency if buff durations were reduced.
Using soulbond for 1-2 self buffs (who's durations need not be altered as I said), and one choice raid buff before a difficult encounter to decrease recovery time is not gutting it's utility.
So anyway, it's a suggestion and an attempt to expound upon a good idea that would bring actual game-play closer to the ruleset it's governed by, using approximations based on the periods of time over which actions and encounters in the game take place. As lofty a goal as it might be, it still seems reasonable.
I did not say I expect an immediate massive rebalance, or imply that time and resources should be taken away from development of new content. This is a famously poor troll found on game development forums everywhere, strangely almost always put forth by players who are not actually developers.
If current and future top tier 6man content is dependent on having buffs from classes or characters not participating, rather than those buffs making it easier to accomplish then I don't know what to say about it. I certainly won't say it's bad implementation to develop content based on the way the game is currently played. I do realize it's a possible series of problems specific to a few classes performance in relation others, just like every other change regarding classes or archetypes since the games creation.
I say Duration is of negligible utility, outside of increasing the usefulness of a character as a buff bot, because in a long grind session (terming that as realistically 4-6 hours), with most buffs being 120 minutes - 240 minutes, a character with Duration 0 vs. a character with Duration 8 will cast their buffs 3 or 2 times. The main benefit being a character with Duration 8 will recast the shorter 120 minute spells one less time, saving ~1000 mana over the course of 6 hours. That's a significant gain in theory. However in practice there will be at least 6 breaks for refreshing, grabbing a drink, taking a bio, or any other real life influence that causes downtime. If downtime in a 6-hour grind totals to 6.5 minutes or more, that mana is recovered anyway, effectively negating any mana that would have been saved in theory by the added buff duration. Only 6.5 minutes, out of a quarter of a whole day, is already pretty unrealistic.
I also proposed a 50% to 100%, increase to the effect of Duration Increment in case you missed it, to compensate for it's lowered effect due to lowered buff times. With buffs having to be cast much more often, and taking Mana Conservation focuses and AA's / Specializations into account for each of those casts, Duration Increment would actually begin to have a bearing on mana efficiency if buff durations were reduced.
Using soulbond for 1-2 self buffs (who's durations need not be altered as I said), and one choice raid buff before a difficult encounter to decrease recovery time is not gutting it's utility.
So anyway, it's a suggestion and an attempt to expound upon a good idea that would bring actual game-play closer to the ruleset it's governed by, using approximations based on the periods of time over which actions and encounters in the game take place. As lofty a goal as it might be, it still seems reasonable.
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darksabbath
Dalayan Master
Ok, first of all, one of those perks of leveling up, is getting buffs with a duration that is actually useful. Rebuffing every half hour is aggravating and annoying. It is the worst part of leveling up a toon. "Ok buff up", kill 6 mobs, "ok, rebuff". Rinse/repeat ad nauseum. And now you want to make the raid game like that, really? No thanks.
Furthermore, you would be returning the game to the "holy three" that live has/had. It's unfortunate that most 6man content already (virtually) requires having just the right class mix, and now all the groups would require it to. People aren't going to want to drop the box cleric for that druid that is lfg, because they will lose their aego in 20 minutes. Or, people will just park their legion of buff-bots near where they hunt most often, and just get the buffs recast anyways.
In reality, the only people that would get hurt by this change are the more casual players. The ones who log in, maybe grab some buffs, and kill for an hour or two here and there. Instead of a couple hours of enjoyable xp, they'll likely spend half their time rebuffing themselves. Until they decide that the game is no longer as enjoyable, and quit. At a time when we are trying to draw more people into game with us, why would we try to change things to make it tougher, and drive them away? And I main a beastlord, I am already recasting all my buffs once an hour as is, I want longer durations on them, not shorter, it is bad enough as is.
In short, I see no upside to this change at all.
Furthermore, you would be returning the game to the "holy three" that live has/had. It's unfortunate that most 6man content already (virtually) requires having just the right class mix, and now all the groups would require it to. People aren't going to want to drop the box cleric for that druid that is lfg, because they will lose their aego in 20 minutes. Or, people will just park their legion of buff-bots near where they hunt most often, and just get the buffs recast anyways.
In reality, the only people that would get hurt by this change are the more casual players. The ones who log in, maybe grab some buffs, and kill for an hour or two here and there. Instead of a couple hours of enjoyable xp, they'll likely spend half their time rebuffing themselves. Until they decide that the game is no longer as enjoyable, and quit. At a time when we are trying to draw more people into game with us, why would we try to change things to make it tougher, and drive them away? And I main a beastlord, I am already recasting all my buffs once an hour as is, I want longer durations on them, not shorter, it is bad enough as is.
In short, I see no upside to this change at all.
darksabbath
Dalayan Master
Well, if I had a habit of hunting the same zone alot, I would just leave to bots in a safe area of that zone, if I was so inclined. Wow, that was so tough. *rolls eyes*
And there wouldn't be more people needed, it would be less. Because people would bot the class int he group, instead of going with inferior buffs. So druids and their new sexy hots would be out of lots of groups, because almost every 65+ exp group will want raego on full time. That means they will bot a cleric along, instead of taking along that druid that is lfg. And if you don't think that will happen, you are so naive that you are beyond hope.
I really fail to see what is so wrong about buff-bots anyways, but whatever. Continue your 1-man crusade.
@ Kas: What happens when the raid bugs out on you, and you have to reform? Then you have to spend another 5-10 minutes re-doing buffs from a game bug? Or perhaps that class goes linkdead, or has to go, and gets replaced by another toon of that class. It's a better suggestion for sure, but unless there is a timer for that class re-joining the group/raid, it would still be a drag.
P.S. @loxo: You do know there is an edit button, right?
And there wouldn't be more people needed, it would be less. Because people would bot the class int he group, instead of going with inferior buffs. So druids and their new sexy hots would be out of lots of groups, because almost every 65+ exp group will want raego on full time. That means they will bot a cleric along, instead of taking along that druid that is lfg. And if you don't think that will happen, you are so naive that you are beyond hope.
I really fail to see what is so wrong about buff-bots anyways, but whatever. Continue your 1-man crusade.
@ Kas: What happens when the raid bugs out on you, and you have to reform? Then you have to spend another 5-10 minutes re-doing buffs from a game bug? Or perhaps that class goes linkdead, or has to go, and gets replaced by another toon of that class. It's a better suggestion for sure, but unless there is a timer for that class re-joining the group/raid, it would still be a drag.
P.S. @loxo: You do know there is an edit button, right?
Kasreyn
The Nice GM
I'm sure it could be worked so that the buffs wouldn't fade right away, but not leave any useful time before buffs fade.
While I can see some merit to this idea:
-EVERY 6man fight would need to be rebalanced.
-General XP would need rebalanced unless we desire severely reduced xp.
-This would merely shift desired classes from one set to another. There will be almost 0 need for a pure melee as they do not provide buffs. Raids in general
-All raid content would need rebalanced to factor missing at least one buff unless it is expected that all raids be "perfect"
-Soloing will become non-existent
-Duoing will become mostly non-existent.
-Things will be more tedious
-If buffs are made to be 36 minutes, no matter how fresh your buffs are you will need to rebuff just in case. Long bosses will need rebalanced to take less time.
This theory can be broken if you raid in your buff bots and only xp with a group.
The amount that it would hurt this game in no way makes for the the minor problems it tries to fix. All this idea does it moves from 1 current problem to several other problems. Personally I would rather see new content made or fixes to current bugs as opposed to a revamp of the entire game. If we look back in history, the shift from 36 to 18 man raids was a far less effort and took a long time before it actually got tuned properly.
Also, anyone ever XP with a less than optimal group? Why bother? Ever group with a new 65 tank or healer? Why bother? Non-reliced player? Why bother? Buff bots make it possible.
-EVERY 6man fight would need to be rebalanced.
-General XP would need rebalanced unless we desire severely reduced xp.
-This would merely shift desired classes from one set to another. There will be almost 0 need for a pure melee as they do not provide buffs. Raids in general
-All raid content would need rebalanced to factor missing at least one buff unless it is expected that all raids be "perfect"
-Soloing will become non-existent
-Duoing will become mostly non-existent.
-Things will be more tedious
-If buffs are made to be 36 minutes, no matter how fresh your buffs are you will need to rebuff just in case. Long bosses will need rebalanced to take less time.
This theory can be broken if you raid in your buff bots and only xp with a group.
The amount that it would hurt this game in no way makes for the the minor problems it tries to fix. All this idea does it moves from 1 current problem to several other problems. Personally I would rather see new content made or fixes to current bugs as opposed to a revamp of the entire game. If we look back in history, the shift from 36 to 18 man raids was a far less effort and took a long time before it actually got tuned properly.
Also, anyone ever XP with a less than optimal group? Why bother? Ever group with a new 65 tank or healer? Why bother? Non-reliced player? Why bother? Buff bots make it possible.
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If this happens, then I really can't see them going the 36 minute approach to this. If you don't go something more along the lines of zaela's suggestion, then everyone with buff bots will just park them outside whatever xp zone they want and the payoff from having buff bots would be even bigger than it is now.
If theres actually a lot of desire to see this come to fruition in some way, I would love to see it taken small scale and see how people actually react to it. Like take an old world zone thats currently not frequented, boost up the exp a bit to give people some incentive to actually go and try this out, and code just that zone to run with a modified system for buffs. Worst case scenario it turns out to be too problematic to go large scale, then perhaps this code could be salvaged to be implemented into a new zone at some later date. A zone designed to be a counterpart to 6 man content, in that 6 mans make certain classes more desirable for certain reasons, this code might make other certain classes more desirable for different reasons.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
here are my responses to posts that came after my post in which i suggested removing buffs when people leave groups and also the balancing that would surround that:
1) 6-man stuff can be faux-balanced like EF is by effective loot distribution and, honestly, most 6-man stuff just isn't as class-restrictive as people make it out to be. people want The Best Group to do a 6-man thing? that is on them 100% and not on the devs in any way.
2) raid stuff would not need to be changed because you can easily have 1 of every class in a raid and then 3 more besides.
3) more people should group rather than duo, which is soloing, which is not healthy (for players or the server). if you are duoing for exp at 65 i can only apologize because that is awful and you shouldn't do it. if anyone can think of positive ways to encourage grouping (besides FAR SUPERIOR EXP that already exists) i am all for it, btw. i do not like any game expecting / supporting complete solo play and i never will.
4) soulbond is another issue that is constantly brought up in dev-chat. it is intricately tied to the buff problem and several other problems too. just demonstrating that as big as you think a problem is, it is actually bigger and more insidious.
5) there is probably a lot more things but i'm tired of this post
1) 6-man stuff can be faux-balanced like EF is by effective loot distribution and, honestly, most 6-man stuff just isn't as class-restrictive as people make it out to be. people want The Best Group to do a 6-man thing? that is on them 100% and not on the devs in any way.
2) raid stuff would not need to be changed because you can easily have 1 of every class in a raid and then 3 more besides.
3) more people should group rather than duo, which is soloing, which is not healthy (for players or the server). if you are duoing for exp at 65 i can only apologize because that is awful and you shouldn't do it. if anyone can think of positive ways to encourage grouping (besides FAR SUPERIOR EXP that already exists) i am all for it, btw. i do not like any game expecting / supporting complete solo play and i never will.
4) soulbond is another issue that is constantly brought up in dev-chat. it is intricately tied to the buff problem and several other problems too. just demonstrating that as big as you think a problem is, it is actually bigger and more insidious.
5) there is probably a lot more things but i'm tired of this post
My 6 man comment wasn't meant as a shot at 6 mans, I really just meant if this idea were tried out and there was a general backlash to it, it could just be added later on in a new zone as a different type of content, just like 6 mans were a different type of content when they were new, and just like abyss is currently a unique type of content as a 12 man. The desirability of classes with 6 mans is what it is; I have no issue with the content itself from what I've done.
But yea, going small scale first would give an idea of the actual problems that would arise, rather than just coding based on speculation. If it works out, you'll have less issues when it does become the new system overall, and people would be less scared of the new and scary system because they'll have had some experience with what was to come.
edit: This is assuming its even possible to code a zone to run on a different set of buff rules than every other zone, or even if it is if it would run happily without causing huge lag spikes. I have no idea.
But yea, going small scale first would give an idea of the actual problems that would arise, rather than just coding based on speculation. If it works out, you'll have less issues when it does become the new system overall, and people would be less scared of the new and scary system because they'll have had some experience with what was to come.
edit: This is assuming its even possible to code a zone to run on a different set of buff rules than every other zone, or even if it is if it would run happily without causing huge lag spikes. I have no idea.
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I like this idea. One thing that WoW got right was making all buffs instant cast. Rebuffing non soulbound buffs after a wipe is so tedious. I don't think its possible to make buffs instant cast but 1 or .5 second cast times are a good substitute (Some hp buffs would have to have some limits like high recast time so people don't use them as heals). Dropping cast times and mana costs is a good way to compensate for shorter buffs. You'll have to buff more often but it will be less painful.
This assumes groups are available and you don't play on off times. Also, in times waiting for a group, soloing is a good way to pad that time.
As per quests as well, most people dont like helping, so the ability to duo allows you to do them.
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