A few comments on the patch

Wiz

Wiz

NOT DONATING *EVER*
There's been, as expected, a lot of complaining about the patch. I want to just take a moment and explain how we reasoned when we did all these changes.

First of all, in the old system, even 45+ groups would regularily wack out reds. Melee DPS was exceptionally high, and fighting reds, blues, etc was irrelevant really. You pushed the same DPS against Ghanerizoc as you did against Large Fungus. This created two issues: Groups that would fight reds without trouble and gain the massive red bonus, making blues pointless, and small raid forces that could push out enough DPS to make a 200khp mob take a dirt nap before the clerics even got to half mana.

I could have started upping mob hp ad infinum, but really, slapping 500khp on Rymaz would just be ridiculous, and wouldn't solve the base problem itself, either. Instead, I sat down and started comparing live DPS charts to WR DPS charts.

The result was rather apalling. A live melee at the luclin era, at 60, with the class equipment that exists on WR (velious/lower luclin) could push perhaps 50% of the DPS that a WR character could push. This explained quite a few things.

Additionally, there was an issue with mob levels. Mobs 50+ had difficulcy jumps at certain levels, then the levels inbetween were rather irrelevant. A level 54 mob provided only very little more challenge than a level 51 mob. Closely tied with the "kill the reds" problem, this made it really restrictive when creating exping areas, as either it was "easy" (51-54) "medium" (55-57) "pretty hard" (58-59) or "hard" (60+)

So the solution?

Well, obviously, melee DPS would need to go down, especially on raid mobs. This wasn't because I love nerfing you people, it was just because it was hugely unbalanced compared to mob HP and mob challenge. It made a joke of equipment upgrades, because who the hell needs 4k mana pools on the clerics when 10 so-so-equipped melees is enough DPS against everything in the game?

Furthermore, I decided to make mob levels matter more. To make a level 53 mob actually harder than a level 52 mob by more than marginal amounts. But I couldn't just make mobs harder and leave mob levels as-is, or we'd get half a dozen plane of torments. So, I pulled down mob levels, I changed HP formulas, and I changed hit formulas. I got rid of the absurd everything-above-that triples and everything-above-that quads, to ease up a bit for casters (interruption) among other things. I changed EXP formulas to make high 40's mobs, which are now like low 50's mobs were before, reasonable exp.

I want you all to stop a moment, and consider that I didn't just take away your favorite toys. I had to change the hit formula, because the old opposed rolls one really wasn't working. I had to change DPS, because it made a joke of the raid game. I had to change mob levels, because they removed all incentive to fight anything but reds that were, essentially, wimps. I don't like nerfing. I hate it. What I want is a finished, stone-set formula, so I can focus on pumping out content instead of these game-breaking patches. But finding that formula takes time. This is the foundation of it. This will let me work within the frames of the game, and fine-tune it, until we have a set DPS formula, that never needs changing again.

By no means is this system perfect yet. It has issues, probably lots of them. It will be retuned and retuned again in the closest week or so. As I know how players work, you will be bitching in /g, you will be bitching in /gu, you will be bitching in /say... you will be bitching everywhere but where it actually might have an impact. USE the suggestions board. USE it. You might be surprised.

Basically, I'm not after you. I just want to make a fun, challenging, and interesting game.

- Wiz
 
I like most of the changes. The only thing that bothers me a bit, is aggro. It's just too high. I admit, it was too low before the patch, but right now it's almost impossible to slow something without getting whacked on. Maybe change it to 80% of the current aggro.

Obviously, I don't know the formulas, but that value should be somewhere in between the old and new aggro.
 
I think what most of us find disturbing is how much this has slowed down xp. You always said whenever someone would complain that some feature wasnt like EQlive, that this WASNT EQlive, but yet now you are saying it needs to be more like Eqlive. There was just a poll about AA xp and the vast majority felt they were a bit too slow. Then right after moving to a new server and asking for donations, which I believe you had a tremendous success at doing, you drastically slowed down xp. Im sure the changes arent done yet, but its really made some of us wonder what the direction of WR is. Is it to become more like EQlive, much more grinding, much harder xp? I feel a bit misled to say the least, signing up for donations only to two days later not be able to do so much of the areas I was having fun doing.

Khalid 60 Crusader
 
About the EQlive thing. We say that this isn't EQlive when people expect a feature to be here because EQlive has it (like horses). A change that makes it more like EQlive is not because we're intending to turn WR into EQlive. It's just part of the balancing process. And unlike EQlive, YOU have a say on what happens here! :D So don't complain, but put your input in constructively! Get data to show where there is still imbalance!

And also, I don't like these changes completely here. I'm not this big roaring zealot for them. I just don't suggest very loudly... for once :)
 
Nothing but love

I think the main concern I have with all of this is casters. Being a wizard I find myself not nuking until mob is like 50 percent health unless I want to get beat down. The wifes enchanter can't even slap a slow on until the mob reaches less than 80 health or she gets aggro and its a bloodbath.
Im worried about aggro because with my meelee tank pumping out his dps so slow it takes a while, a long while to lower those mobs hitpoints to 80/50 so casters can finish battle. Aggro I feel needs to be upped on meelee. Maybe incorporate a proximity aggro( Like on live) to help them up their hate on the mob so casters arent noticed as much.
I noticed mobs that are still blue as well cause me a headache as far as DPS goes. Mobs that were like level 51 are giving my group a wipeout now so I dont even come near them. Its gonna take some getting used to for sure but overall the experience is still pleasant. We just have to look around to past areas for that grind now hehe.
At any rate I have nothing but love for the server. You have made this still an experience of champions Wizzy and devs and you know we all respect you for that.

Marek 55 wizard
 
I agree that the problem here is aggro.

After fighting with the hate meter on, I discovered the following:

When duoing with my monk and shaman, (on a blue dretch in the deep) the fight lasted around 3 minutes or so, maybe four. I cast Turgur's when the mob was at around 90% and stole aggro.

Slow cause 750 points of aggro. I went ahead and tanked the mob because when it's slowed, it hardly touches me and because my monk tends to hit a LOT more from behind. The shaman pet managed to steal aggro when the mob was at about 55-60%.

By the time I managed to get it to around 30% or so, I healed the pet. This caused about 300 points or so of aggro. I was not able to sit at all throughout most of the fight.

At the end of the 3+ minute fight, the totals looked like this:
Monk hate meter = 2200 (apx)
Shaman hate meter = 1100

I don't think the spell casting hate meter is out of line at all. It seems to be the melee's ability to generate it. Granted, I don't have the best equipment in the world, but a MONK should be able to put out decent dps with or without weapons. I don't even think an underdark ulak is attainable at my level, and I can't generate enough hate to tank over a shaman pet.

I like the idea behind the changes, but it has COMPLETELY screwed my class. A shaman pet is literally outdamaging me when I am wielding a weapon that isn't attainable at my current level. I still miss all the time.

I understand the issue with owning reds and yellows...I was really curious as to how we were able to do it myself. However, now it's very difficult to even duo blues.

It's getting closer though. If I have a REAL tank tanking, it isn't as bad at all. However, that is not the issue here really. The issue in my case seems to be that the nerf hit my character a little too hard. If I am losing aggro on a mob that gets slowed at 80-85% or so, then there seems to be an issue with the class period.

If this can be fixed by me simply getting high end weapons, I'll save up for those then. However, when asking people what stuff comes from where, I've found that there is a SEVERE lack of monk weapons that are attainable in mid-levels. I've managed to get my brother and friend's warrior and paladin tons of different things, yet of all the things we've camped or seen for sale, most of them are not monk usable at all. However, at 60, there are a ton of different options available. But I am not 60 yet, and I don't have that option available to me at this moment.

Generally, this isn't a bitch saying that I want my DPS increased, etc. It's just obviously a real problem when a 51 monk with decent weapons VS a 51 shaman is:

1) Getting outdamaged by a shaman pet
2) Completely unable to hold aggro

If you don't believe me, I'll gladly show a demonstration and give logs + parse them. It has pretty much completely made playing my monk useless for me at the time being.

(I can give more detail as to buffs and stats if necessary, but I really think that isn't an issue)

I'll work with it more after class today and see if I can't figure out what exactly is the problem in my case. It's not a matter of slack either : )
 
mwh said:
I think what most of us find disturbing is how much this has slowed down xp. You always said whenever someone would complain that some feature wasnt like EQlive, that this WASNT EQlive, but yet now you are saying it needs to be more like Eqlive. There was just a poll about AA xp and the vast majority felt they were a bit too slow. Then right after moving to a new server and asking for donations, which I believe you had a tremendous success at doing, you drastically slowed down xp. Im sure the changes arent done yet, but its really made some of us wonder what the direction of WR is. Is it to become more like EQlive, much more grinding, much harder xp? I feel a bit misled to say the least, signing up for donations only to two days later not be able to do so much of the areas I was having fun doing.

Khalid 60 Crusader
Click to expand...

I'm really curious to how you figure I've slowed down exp. Mob levels were lowered, but individual experience per mob was severely upped. AA experience should most definitely be gained at the same rate as before.

Also, trying to use donations as a leverege to making me feel guilty for a game-balancing patch is quite lame.

61-65 are very slow, yes. This is intentional.
 
Also, people, about aggro and DPS: I did say the system was not perfect. I will be tweaking both of these.
 
Well wizzy, I dont know what you expect us to think. Im hardly the only person that feels this way. This weekend you asked us how we liked the direction the server was going. For most of us, certainly me, I was having incredible fun. Then a few days later, I cant even remotely do the same areas. The group of 4 people that I party with all the time were doing Mielechs Depth crypt the day before this patch. It was hard, but we had alot of fun. Challenging, and we got some nice drops. Then the very next day, we simply cant do that area at all now. The CHef area in the Depth, cant do anymore. Areas in Sorc's Lab that we used to be able to do, are wiping us. Maybe that was intended, its hard to say, because Im still not really sure what direction you are going now. Certainly it seems a far cry from what it was only a week ago, which was a MMO based around having fun with customized content.

Anyway, its not about guilttripping you heh, its about trying to express in a way outside parsed logs how utterly depressing this patch was for some of us. Ive been logging raids, and information from that has been posted on other threads. However, a parsed log cant really show how much less fun you have now vs before, or how areas you used to be able to do, you cant. Effectively, alot of content we enjoyed doing, we no longer can do with our current gear. Maybe after we hit 65, we can do those areas, but is that really the intention?

Khalid lvl 60 Crusader
 
mwh said:
Well wizzy, I dont know what you expect us to think. Im hardly the only person that feels this way. This weekend you asked us how we liked the direction the server was going. For most of us, certainly me, I was having incredible fun. Then a few days later, I cant even remotely do the same areas. The group of 4 people that I party with all the time were doing Mielechs Depth crypt the day before this patch. It was hard, but we had alot of fun. Challenging, and we got some nice drops. Then the very next day, we simply cant do that area at all now. The CHef area in the Depth, cant do anymore. Areas in Sorc's Lab that we used to be able to do, are wiping us. Maybe that was intended, its hard to say, because Im still not really sure what direction you are going now. Certainly it seems a far cry from what it was only a week ago, which was a MMO based around having fun with customized content.

Anyway, its not about guilttripping you heh, its about trying to express in a way outside parsed logs how utterly depressing this patch was for some of us. Ive been logging raids, and information from that has been posted on other threads. However, a parsed log cant really show how much less fun you have now vs before, or how areas you used to be able to do, you cant. Effectively, alot of content we enjoyed doing, we no longer can do with our current gear. Maybe after we hit 65, we can do those areas, but is that really the intention?
Click to expand...

Again, I'm asking you this: If this changed overnight, why do you expect it cannot change again?

We did not expect or want this impact of the patch. But we can't really test it either. We don't have the resources or test server that EQlive does, see?

To everyone who threatened me with donations:
Revoke your donations because you don't have any trust in me to fix things, and server goes away. I will change things that I see needs changing, I will not fold to your bullshit threats.
 
I don't intend this to be a rant or telling anyone off, I just want to get my view across as a regular player on WR.


This server claims not to be an Eqlive replica. Then why are drifting closer & closer in that direction everytime there's a patch ?

EXP should be fast here, not slow. If people wanted to grind all day long we'd all be back on live. Frankly, I enjoyed WR at first because I didn't need to play all day everyday just be to able to keep up with everyone else.

I realise that the patch work isnt all done yet, but it does seem as if we're generally drifting into the more "serious" gaming side of EQ, which requires alot more dedication and yields alot less fun.

As for groups having unusually high dps and being able to take down reds with ease, I don't know where this came from but I suspect it is twink groups with people using high end loot either dropped from raids or bought.

Having levelled up as a completely new player to WR, in recent months, I can assure that this was NOT the case for us normal players.
Even when grouped with higher level players, we could rarely take down reds and mostly stuck to blues, as it was quicker exp to maintain a steady stream of pulls.

If the problem lies with high-end raiding mobs and dps of melee, then why not simply up the AC of raid mobs ? This is what was done in Luclin and it worked pretty well against the enourmous dps gains of the velious era.

It seems as if most descisions with regards to balancing are now being made with raids in mind. This is all well and dandy for people raiding in guilds, but for the rest of us it is irrelevant and somewhat irritating.

So please, do try to remember that this is a break-away from EQlive, things dont need to be slow, they dont need to be tweaked to perfection. Thats what makes WR an interesting place to be.
 
gummythetroll said:
I don't intend this to be a rant or telling anyone off, I just want to get my view across as a regular player on WR.


This server claims not to be an Eqlive replica. Then why are drifting closer & closer in that direction everytime there's a patch ?

EXP should be fast here, not slow. If people wanted to grind all day long we'd all be back on live. Frankly, I enjoyed WR at first because I didn't need to play all day everyday just be to able to keep up with everyone else.

I realise that the patch work isnt all done yet, but it does seem as if we're generally drifting into the more "serious" gaming side of EQ, which requires alot more dedication and yields alot less fun.

As for groups having unusually high dps and being able to take down reds with ease, I don't know where this came from but I suspect it is twink groups with people using high end loot either dropped from raids or bought.

Having levelled up as a completely new player to WR, in recent months, I can assure that this was NOT the case for us normal players.
Even when grouped with higher level players, we could rarely take down reds and mostly stuck to blues, as it was quicker exp to maintain a steady stream of pulls.

If the problem lies with high-end raiding mobs and dps of melee, then why not simply up the AC of raid mobs ? This is what was done in Luclin and it worked pretty well against the enourmous dps gains of the velious era.

It seems as if most descisions with regards to balancing are now being made with raids in mind. This is all well and dandy for people raiding in guilds, but for the rest of us it is irrelevant and somewhat irritating.

So please, do try to remember that this is a break-away from EQlive, things dont need to be slow, they dont need to be tweaked to perfection. Thats what makes WR an interesting place to be.
Click to expand...

The patch was done mainly with high levels in mind, and the majority of DPS tweaking was done against high-end mobs, but I have been watching for weeks now, as 30ish, and 40ish, and 50ish groups chew through red mobs with zero risk and massive reward. And I'm not just talking about twink groups here.

As for the EQlive replica business, that's just ridiculous. We're not an EQlive replica because we have different mobs, systems, etc as them. HOWEVER, we do take a lot from EQlive. We take the basic game from them. I needed to do away with the old system because of the restrictions it placed on content.

Yes, we are drifting towards somewhat more serious gaming. This is an unevitable development as the server population grows larger. If I let every mob in the game be doable with twenty people, how quickly would people at the top tire? That doesn't mean I'm going to neglect or ignore low levels at all, though.
 
I don't understand the problem with levelling 61-65. Levelling wasn't the reason I quit EQLIVE...it was because of the following:

1) Server politics
2) Amount of time required to compete in the end game
3) Dependence on equipment and if xxx mob drops xxx loot

I have no problem with making it longer to level. I enjoy exp groups and taking named camps on. I actually prefer the idea of being able to get (somewhat) raid comparable items in a high level camp VS actually having to do a raid.

I just hope that the information I provide can be used to tweak the gameplay. I for one have faith at least, and I'll continue to play even if it sucks, more or less because I have a schedule that gives me a lot of free time.

I'll be willing to guinea pig all day for all I care. I still have fun even if I am getting owned.
 
You know I am new here, so there really isn't a whole lot i can complain about, and the fact that I am new to EQ and WR in general lessens my ability to complian. A bit easer for high lvl players to voice their concern, seeing that they have experienced much more variation with WR over time than I have.

I will say this:
I will be paitent. I know the Devs don't want to screw us, if they did they wouldn't be offering a free eq server in the first place. I know that some things will take time to be balanced, and i agree with Wiz's intentions on having a server that is balanced and fun to play. I have noticed the aggro and dps problems, heh i'm a ranger for christ sake, and i have noticed my ranger missing more and more, and mobs hitting more. Blah..Whatever. I'm sure things will be re-balanced, and re-balanced again, until we get it right. I'm not in a hurry to lvl up, and i don't want a free ride (sure a little help along the way is nice, but not expected), I want to play a game, and interact with people from all over the world, i want to be challenged (and i am : ) ) and I want to have fun, most of all, and I am.

I agree with DoctorGonzo, and i am in the same boat as he with a lot of time to spend on the server or these boards as of right now.

And a final note: Agree with me, disagree with..blah, whatever. This will never be Live. Never. And i would rather have a free server to play on than have no free server to play on, even if that server was shit, which WR obviously is NOT. At least here there is a sense of community, and the devs are working (for free mind you) at pleasing us. At providing us a place to play the game, and actually putting up with the complaints and looking for a way to resolve the matter. I can't say that about very many BIG, gargantuan devs, like those at Live. Think Live will ever meet your expectations, your wants and needs? (As the devs here at WR atleast try to do for us all) If you do then go hand in your $12.95 a mo. with the rest of the cronies. Why did you ever leave Live in the first place? (ask yourself).

~DarkArtist
 
The DPS (as discouraging as it might be) is pretty much in line. I'm still doing roughly 10% more DPS than I did on live, and that is with considerably weaker weapons. There are still only 2 problems I have with it:

1) Rogues have always been the highest on the melee DPS. And they always should be, as this is the only ability we can bring to a normal EXP group. However, In parsing a small raid log, Monks are outdamaging rogues 50% of the time, and getting within 5-10 DPS the other 50% of the time. This is simply unbalanced, due to their higher ability to tank mobs, FD, Mend. The monk already brings the superior pulling ability to the group, there is no way they should come within 15 DPS of a rogue. Since us rogues are now backstabbing the same as live, possibly adding double backstab will clear this problem up easily.

2) Knight classes are having severe trouble in the DPS departments. Pets are outdamaging them (with high end weapons I might add) roughly 30% of the time, and getting within 5 DPS the rest of the times.

As for the other thing... Aggro. I think we are all in agreement there. Spell aggro is almost unbearable now. Last night in CMAL we had Two lvl 60 Warriors, both with VERY high aggro weapons, with procs. And the mobs were bouncing everywhere. This even happened in a raid environment in PoT. Casters are getting WAY too much aggro.

As for the rest, it's all good. One thing that has ruined live is how easy it has gotten.. Before all these expansions, your reputation depended on your SKILL in your class, and a strong strategy determined your success (ie, Plane of Fear break). Now on live, the reputations are about who has the best gear. Raids on live are about who can CH chain the longest.... I like the idea of keeping WR challenging.
 
If rogues really are performing that badly, I will fix them. When I parsed a rogue last night, versus an equally equipped monk, the rogue was pushing about 20 more DPS.
 
Ok, I just had to post this about peoples whine about exp (sure, I've done it as well), if you don't like the time you have to put in to get 61-65 then go back to AA exp, wiz said that aa exp gain should be at the same rate. You still get the same AA exp rate as earlier, 61-65 where ment to be HARD, it was implemented for (mainly) those who has been level 60 for ALONG time and have like 100+AA that felt like nothing else to do, now they do. Like every GM has posted, give FEEDBACK about the patch, they don't have test people so we are the test people, Wiz has allready tweaked it around several times sience the "patch", so give feedback to him instead of whineing about he ruining the game.
People, concider this, Wiz has put up this server with his own cash (sure he takes donation NOW), the server has been up for what 1year+ ? You are NOT obligated to pay for the game, Wiz puts down his own money and time for us to enjoy a alternative EQ than EQLive, sure if we move abit towards EQLive then so what, WR will NEVER be EQlive, WR is a new experience of EQ with custom content, new storyline, new quests to discover and solve, new raid mobs to kill.
Instead of whineing, give feedback and continue to enjoy this wonderfull game and server.
 
Yeah, allso remembered, Wiz currently pay US $325 (I think it was) / MONTH for us players to enjoy..... of course he ditch out that kind of cash every month just so he can nerf and loose all the player base ????
Get a grip people.... ok, rant off, time for me to take a bath (and some more beer... mmmm... beer)
 
Fjodor said:
Yeah, allso remembered, Wiz currently pay US $325 (I think it was) / MONTH for us players to enjoy..... of course he ditch out that kind of cash every month just so he can nerf and loose all the player base ????
Get a grip people.... ok, rant off, time for me to take a bath (and some more beer... mmmm... beer)
Click to expand...

With the donations of all you lovely people, Wiz isn't paying that much, but yeah, he does pay a considerable amount still. And yeah, he's been throwing in $100 a month for a year till this point or so.
 
Let me start by syaing I don't really know how to say I all I in mind so this post might seem a little unscructured. Oh, and this is a long post, I have to dump my thought on the server or I'll just burn out and quit without anybody knowing why.

Also, know that I do not post my in-game character here, because I've seen too much other being put-down because they voice their opinions, I'd like to stay anonymous.

I understand the problem of group plowing trough red, this should not happen. But as it it now, if you have a little variance in your group level (say a 50 to 55 group) then the game is out of whack. You cannot expect everyone in the group to be the same level all the way to 60... Sure, when you are 60 and everyone in your group is 60 then it's easy to balance mobs on their con color. But you should know that on their way to 60 people have no choice to group with people of different level.

All this make it really unfun to hunt anymore, as a white con to our level 51 tank will surely wipe our group, even if our cleric and enchanter is level 55. As it is now, the melee DPS and aggro and so much based on con that they can't hit that white-yellow con to generate enough aggro to retain the mob when either the enchanter slow the mob or when our cleric heal our tank. And I'm not talking about noob who don't know how to play here, I'm talking about veteran who played a while on Live AND Winter's Roar, they know their classes, they know how to play it etc...

So I understand having to change thing a little so that group dont plow trough red without risk, but to nerf it to the point of my regular group having to take on ONLY blue is kind of lame and frusrtating, not counting that the higher level of our group and getting next to no exp because everything we kill is blue or light blue to them...

I do not ask thing to be as before, but I'd be very disapointed if my regular group can only kill blue until we are all 60, that would prove most depressing.

Now to another points, Weapons skills. As I saw in our hunting sessions since "the patch" that weapons skills (1h Blunt, etc...) are taken into equation much more strongly. But from what I see it is taken way too strongly into consideration. In the 50ies I have two weapons skills that are lagging behind. Let me just say that since last patched I have no hope whatsoever to bring these skills back to maxxed.

One of my skill is at 151 (on a max of 200 and something) and let me say that I cannot even hit blue conned monster more then once in every ten to twenty swing, I think that's a little bit too much miss dont you think ?

As for my other skill, it is lagging behind a lot, it is at 54 ( on a total of 200 something). And this skill I have now lost all hope of bringing it up... Even on much lower level mobs (around 30) I rarely land a hit so I let you guess how much time I can hit a blue con, yes that's it zero, nada, none. The result I have are more then depressing, on a blue con (level around 50) I could not land a single hit on more then a hundred and fifty swing. I understand that people should play their class well and all, but that we are not allowed a single mistake is rather... bullshit.

I'd like to suggest changes but I don't really know what you changed so its diffcult to say this or that was wrongly in the equation, You know your math, you know your server, you know your code... You know more then all of us what you chnged exactly, you should be the best one to know how to change things again.

So I'd like to finish by saying that I'm not having much more fun anymore, I know that you could not care less about 1 player leaving your server, but I had to let you know. By wrtting this I'm getting the steam off and it permit my system to wait a week or two to see if thing will balance out a little more... I just want to have fun, and as of lately I'm not having much.

Anonymous
 
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