36 Players per Raid

[Morridan]

For the first part of your post Nernigle, there's a limit of only 36 people in a raid, so why would you even have more around? None of what you asked should be a worry for you because there should only be 36 there to begin with.

Also, I don't think it's a case of 'We're against PR" but more of "We're against a 46 person zerg group killing a raid mob that 20 people could do."

 

[zodium]

If someone on the hate list dies, is another free to jump in?

I've noticed that I can no longer FD my monk to save him from agro hits. Does this mean if I have to keep him FD'd for most of the fight (for pulling reasons) he's taking up a spot?

Are there any non agro spells that people can use to help out with the fight?

The agro radius on a lot of mobs is huge, could they be lowered so that people can't inadvertently gain agro when they're not supposed to?

1) No
2) Yes - pulling the mob counts as participating, who would've thought?
3) Probably not
4) Examples


Zirvane is still killable with 20, I've done the math. If you want it simply, I can do it without revealing too much:
- Zirvane was done with 16, not all of which were even top notch.
- Zirvane was boosted 25%, roughly. I can't and won't reveal what I base this on, but it's fairly accurate. You will have to take my word.
- I postulate he is killable with 20 or less now (exactly 25% more than 16).
- Adding 25% more players actually gives more than a 25% advantage since the chance of freak deaths is reduced exponentially with more players.

I have done the math with GM knowledge as well, and it more than holds up. Zirvane is doable with 20 or less. GotSS is as well, though I have only hard theoretical math for that encounter with no anecdotal evidence.

If you have 50 players online for a raid, then you've been overrecruiting. Too bad. And NTOV mobs should BARELY be killable if at all with no enchanter/shaman, what the fuck? Tossing 8+ characters on to compensate should not be possible at all.

 

[maddctr]

There is a large differance between fielding 46 toons to zerg a high end raid boss and using skilled 36 member raids. A raid guild should recruit to fit their needs and set their recruitment quotas to fit that. If instead you choose to continue recruiting level 30+ players than you will have a problem not turning down people at high end raid encounters. There is also the option of being a casual guild, staying in ToV has done you well so far.

I see no problems with these changes and I welcome their impact on botting in raids and how guilds are trimmed to fit goals. I expect to see another major raiding house appear with the trimmed from both guilds. The only problem with a new raiding guild though will be the lack of grandfathered click sticks.

We raided prison a few days ago and zoned in with 40 toons, we than deduced the 36 rule was in from glib the nite before and new messeges on mobs. After camping our bots we trimmed down to a neat 36 and did better than ever before with a complete start to finish motg run and a bugged attempt at mani. Of key importance too is the fact that the lag was cut down enormously from camping bots etc and our reaction times allowed us to save a missed chain start and ld bugged lead cleric on motg.

As for the boo hoo we do something uber and get nerfed , I just dont buy it. Do guardian with 36 If you need a tank Ill be waiting for my CoH :hug:

 

[Asura_WR]

By no ways is this a slam, to me it's just the truth. When people get levels and AA's, they're so much stronger. Even having 36 is too much for some raids, other than Prison, GotS, and Zirvane.

We've never had to do any of those with 36 people. Always less.

 

[Liam]

An effective manner in which to promote skill over numbers. I, as a player, enjoy this change.

 

[diolas]

Zirvane is still killable with 20, I've done the math. If you want it simply, I can do it without revealing too much:
- Zirvane was done with 16, not all of which were even top notch.
- Zirvane was boosted 25%, roughly. I can't and won't reveal what I base this on, but it's fairly accurate. You will have to take my word.
- I postulate he is killable with 20 or less now (exactly 25% more than 16).
- Adding 25% more players actually gives more than a 25% advantage since the chance of freak deaths is reduced exponentially with more players.

I have done the math with GM knowledge as well, and it more than holds up. Zirvane is doable with 20 or less. GotSS is as well, though I have only hard theoretical math for that encounter with no anecdotal evidence.

Your forgetting that there have been 3 nerfs since that particular encounter. The first was limiting clerics to 3 per tank. The Second was limiting FT during encounters to 15 (gear) and 30 (buffs) Reference. The third was the one you referred to. I am not, however, arguing that it can't be done with 36 people. In fact, if you take 6 wizards and 6 rogues instead of your usual raiding plethora, most mobs become trivial. Does this mean that wizards and rogues need a hefty nerf? Why not? That was the basis behind the original cleric nerf (too many clerics in a chain trivializes encounters Reference).
But I digress.

Let's be realistic. For 99% of the mobs on the server, making the kills with 36 people is no problem whatsoever. There are still going to be that 1% where it's going to come close. GotSS for example. Is this guy even possible anymore? You can do the math all you want, but people are not computers. Reaction time, emotions and a number of other factors come into the equasion. It was a huge PR achievement to be the first guild to take him after the last nerf, the same with Zirvane. And Lo, the very next week we're wondering if we'll ever get another chance.

As for the boo hoo we do something uber and get nerfed , I just dont buy it. Do guardian with 36 If you need a tank Ill be waiting for my CoH

Your application has been denied once already, please stop harassing us.

 

[Nernigle]

If you have 50 players online for a raid, then you've been overrecruiting. Too bad.

This was never a problem until a couple of days ago..


If Zirvane and Guardian are now so easily killed by 20 people... Why then has noone killed them since the upgrades until last weekend?? They have been attempted - We have seen that... but noone has succeeded until PRkilled them both last weekend. Now we get the 36 player rule.

The vast majority of PR raids are around 20-30 ppl... the numbers change as the Euro players log off and the West coast USA logs on..
Again I stress that a lot of our members are somewhat casual players that dont eat sleep and talk WR all day but have been having a lot of fun raiding when they do get to log on. It is because of the number of casual players that we have that we also have the high numbers of members.

Again.. we would schedule a big target raid around a week in advance and that would see alot of those members make the time to come and join us.. Some encounters we win some we don't.. we have fun.

Now we have to go back to the guild and try to sort out who is going to be playing what for this raid and that raid then hope that our casual players will still get a shot at raiding..


Now as for Zerging..
Zerging describes a tactic, originating in MMORPGs but used in many different computer games, that roughly equates to the archetypical tactics of the Zerg race (from Starcraft) that is only effective in large numbers, which is somewhat analogous to human wave attack in ground warfare. Normally this is a derogatory term, characterized by hurling vast quantities of troops at the enemy with no consideration for tactics and casualities (as in real warfare).

We do not ZERG.. We do have carefully thought out strategies that sometimes work and sometimes need to be refined.. When the strat does not work, we wipe.. when the strat does work.. we win! I think only 4 ppl died on the GOTSS encounter when we won.. Noone could call that a "zerg". We have too many flawless(no deaths at all) DHK throneroom kills to count.. PR does not Zerg, and does not need to zerg. (We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

 

[Liam]

(We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

That's the 2nd time I've heard that, and just for curiosity's sake, who?

It's not like the server's monks all have insane and various techniques to pull mobs.

 

[luciferblack]

(We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

That's the 2nd time I've heard that, and just for curiosity's sake, who?

It's not like the server's monks all have insane and various techniques to pull mobs.

I once saw a monk pull and then BAM! He friggin FD'd! OMG it was awesome ! You shoulda been there.

Okay sarcasm aside, who's "taking notes"? It is a pretty bold statement to make with no names out there...

You sure the people are there to check out your skills or are they just hanging out watching because they were bored at the time?
Did you ask them?

 

[maddctr]

(We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

That's the 2nd time I've heard that, and just for curiosity's sake, who?

It's not like the server's monks all have insane and various techniques to pull mobs.

I dont recall offhand who watched you pull, but your technique was what was important. Liam this insane and various technique we like to call exploiting by using coh to split named mobs. I specifically asked about this technique before nartalzia was ever killed as a way to position her above the tov fourway and avoid her rain. We were told it was an exploit and to not do this. I don't watch PR raids, I cant stomache the lag, but I wouldnt mind someone watching after this.

 

[Yanbik]

good change imo

skill over numbers

 

[rab]

This just makes WR like playing a sport in a league. It's still a game. You still have fun. You just have to be good enough and not get cut from the team.

 

[Liam]

(We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

That's the 2nd time I've heard that, and just for curiosity's sake, who?

It's not like the server's monks all have insane and various techniques to pull mobs.

I dont recall offhand who watched you pull, but your technique was what was important. Liam this insane and various technique we like to call exploiting by using coh to split named mobs. I specifically asked about this technique before nartalzia was ever killed as a way to position her above the tov fourway and avoid her rain. We were told it was an exploit and to not do this. I don't watch PR raids, I cant stomache the lag, but I wouldnt mind someone watching after this.

I had heard about the CoH exploits to Skywatcher location, but aside from that, I meant specifically Ruin members or others who came to observe the PR pulls, that's all. I had played a monk for many years on this server, and I, nor others I've spoken to have attended a PR raid specifically to observe the pulls, and I was merely curious as to who exactly attends a raid to watch the pulls? Why would they even be tolerated?

 

[Yanbik]

only reason i raided w/ pr when i came back was to learn there lewt pulling strats!!!

 

[Wiz]

Nernigle, I don't care for all your woe-is-PR babble. I will take unpopular decisions to maintain the health and challenge in the game. Deal with this fact.

 

[RiddlN]

I like this 36 person rule... every raid encounter in the game is doable, if you have the strategy...

It also opens up opportunities for new high level raiding guilds too if the lesser people are getting left out, which is a great idea too.

And PR should stop bitching about Ruin watching pulls, you guys watched us pull Attendant... give our take... and you lose.

There are a few PR members that I can tolerate, hell... I'm even friends with a few... but some of you are just plain idiots.

 

[Asura_WR]

If you have 50 players online for a raid, then you've been overrecruiting. Too bad.

This was never a problem until a couple of days ago..


If Zirvane and Guardian are now so easily killed by 20 people... Why then has noone killed them since the upgrades until last weekend?? They have been attempted - We have seen that... but noone has succeeded until PRkilled them both last weekend. Now we get the 36 player rule.

(We even get people from other guilds watching how we split, pull and kill mobs!!)

Attempted by whom? PR? Because Ruin hasnt touched Guardian or Zirvane since the changes. So please dont make it out to be more than it really is, kthx.

And split, pull, and kill mobs? Are those nicknames for CoH?

 

[RiddlN]

If Zirvane and Guardian are now so easily killed by 20 people... Why then has noone killed them since the upgrades until last weekend?? They have been attempted - We have seen that... but noone has succeeded until PRkilled them both last weekend. Now we get the 36 player rule.

The vast majority of PR raids are around 20-30 ppl... the numbers change as the Euro players log off and the West coast USA logs on..
Again I stress that a lot of our members are somewhat casual players that dont eat sleep and talk WR all day but have been having a lot of fun raiding when they do get to log on. It is because of the number of casual players that we have that we also have the high numbers of members.

Ok so most of your raids are 20-30 people...what's you're problem with the 36 person rule then? If most of your raids are 20-30 then you shouldn't have a problem with it at all. And as far as your Shaman issue goes, you guys should learn how to bot necessary classes to raids instead of bringing like 6 necros 8 clerics and 10 druids.

Now that we're done with the bullshit, let's cut to the chase.....

Given the scenario you have 50 people on that want to raid, which is usually the case... ok, cool go bum rush something with no strat... wait, you can't because of the 36person limit. Well 36 is the max right? Why not do two seperate raids in two different areas? That way everyone's chances for loot is doubled, AND it will allow you to drop the reputation that PR carries of 'zerging'.

 

[zodium]

Your forgetting that there have been 3 nerfs since that particular encounter. The first was limiting clerics to 3 per tank. The Second was limiting FT during encounters to 15 (gear) and 30 (buffs) Reference. The third was the one you referred to.

Did it ever strike you I may have a lot of experience calculating these encounters? I took human error overhead into consideration, obviously. They are very doable.

 

[zlandicar]

The 36 raid cap is a good idea but i see one thing wrong so here gose.

Pr/ruin as advantage over all the new guilds that want to explore. Ruin and Pr allways had the zerg force behind them when killing names but new guilds they got like no hope with there current gear.

So i think u should just make High end mobs like zirvane GoTSh and any high end zones like prison 36 only but u gotta take the cap of other mobs for new guilds who ant got that advantage that other guilds did back in the day.

But thats just my thought on this to help the new guilds building up.