36 Players per Raid
- Thread starter diolas
- Start date
- Status
Really? I didn't know that. Thanks!
Oh, Melwin, I think my main concern was that the top end of the guild was going to progress faster than the bottom of the guild. Considering you need to take your top 36 to any harder encounter like Zirvane, or GoTS. Any named in Prison is sure to require your top players. All the newer folks just get left behind. Yes, they'll go to lower end raids, but how successful will they be?
Meh, I guess we'll see. At this point, this is pure conjecture on my behalf, something I hate doing (or love doing depending on who you talk to).
Oh, Melwin, I think my main concern was that the top end of the guild was going to progress faster than the bottom of the guild. Considering you need to take your top 36 to any harder encounter like Zirvane, or GoTS. Any named in Prison is sure to require your top players. All the newer folks just get left behind. Yes, they'll go to lower end raids, but how successful will they be?
Meh, I guess we'll see. At this point, this is pure conjecture on my behalf, something I hate doing (or love doing depending on who you talk to).
BeittilBonker
Dalayan Adventurer
This kinda reminds me of my guild on live before I quit there 
They announced a PoTime raid to nail Quarm and suddenly there was way over a 100 ppl waiting outside the zone to get into a raid that couldnt hold more then 72 ppl.
There we had exactly what Rambler is pointing out to. At that moment we just HAD to take the top notch players from the guild along, otherwise there was no way in hell that the 'rest' of us could even think of trying to kill a beast like Quarm.
This usually ment that there were over 40 'regulars' in the PoTime raids while the rest of the spots were randomly for the rest of the 150+ ppl that we had in total.
They announced a PoTime raid to nail Quarm and suddenly there was way over a 100 ppl waiting outside the zone to get into a raid that couldnt hold more then 72 ppl.There we had exactly what Rambler is pointing out to. At that moment we just HAD to take the top notch players from the guild along, otherwise there was no way in hell that the 'rest' of us could even think of trying to kill a beast like Quarm.
This usually ment that there were over 40 'regulars' in the PoTime raids while the rest of the spots were randomly for the rest of the 150+ ppl that we had in total.
as far as the guilds getting to big obviously you should stop recruiting and try to make the best raid group of 36 you can ( of course with extras cuz no one is at every raid) and work up your lower people first and make a good solid group and then you will be able to take anything and no one will be left behind.
Zhak Morris
Dalayan Beginner
This system is going to work out fine if you ask me. Non DC'd characters > DC'd characters, period. Currently there are at least 5-10 DC'd characters every raid in any guild.. drop them...
And like Melwin has been saying, if you deprioratize the lower end of your guild, you will never progress.
Coming from one of the top guilds in all of EverQuest, I can say from experience that gearing the "low-end" people is one of the keys to success in a large guild.
To me, the 36 man cap is a must... I could explain why but most of the reasons are stated one way or another in this post.
It's been said that the hardest mob in the game (Kaezul) can be beaten with 36. Now granted, you're going to need 36 people in alazif / coltaine level gear and 300-400 aa's a piece, but there is no reason the cap should be raised so a guild can bring in 50ish people to beat it when the encounter was designed for less.
And like Melwin has been saying, if you deprioratize the lower end of your guild, you will never progress.
Coming from one of the top guilds in all of EverQuest, I can say from experience that gearing the "low-end" people is one of the keys to success in a large guild.
To me, the 36 man cap is a must... I could explain why but most of the reasons are stated one way or another in this post.
It's been said that the hardest mob in the game (Kaezul) can be beaten with 36. Now granted, you're going to need 36 people in alazif / coltaine level gear and 300-400 aa's a piece, but there is no reason the cap should be raised so a guild can bring in 50ish people to beat it when the encounter was designed for less.
what is called a "bot" in your eyes.
And even if everyone who DC's is playing only 1 character we still might need to send away people. I hate to tell people this: "You know what you can do to help us. You could do some chearleading in Guild to get the spirit up. But by all means stay away."
Personaly i hate it how in WR you for some reason always have to fight to the same goal. And as soon as you make the goal something gets changed so you have to fight to the same goal again. (CH chain, max people, Mob upgrades)
And even if everyone who DC's is playing only 1 character we still might need to send away people. I hate to tell people this: "You know what you can do to help us. You could do some chearleading in Guild to get the spirit up. But by all means stay away."
Personaly i hate it how in WR you for some reason always have to fight to the same goal. And as soon as you make the goal something gets changed so you have to fight to the same goal again. (CH chain, max people, Mob upgrades)
Ratkon, it's either continually fighting the same stuff, or them adding in new content... which is easier?
By no ways is this a slam, to me it's just the truth. When people get levels and AA's, they're so much stronger. Even having 36 is too much for some raids, other than Prison, GotS, and Zirvane.
As for playing a bot on a raid, I assume you just mean two boxing. If I didn't two box, I'd never get a heal during fights, not to mention, looking for a group would make me want to shoot my arm off and eat it.
I think what I'll start doing is just bringing the character that can get loot from that specific target. That makes sense. So say goodbye to me pulling, or me malo'ing, depending on which character is going to possibly get loot.
By no ways is this a slam, to me it's just the truth. When people get levels and AA's, they're so much stronger. Even having 36 is too much for some raids, other than Prison, GotS, and Zirvane.
As for playing a bot on a raid, I assume you just mean two boxing. If I didn't two box, I'd never get a heal during fights, not to mention, looking for a group would make me want to shoot my arm off and eat it.
I think what I'll start doing is just bringing the character that can get loot from that specific target. That makes sense. So say goodbye to me pulling, or me malo'ing, depending on which character is going to possibly get loot.
BeittilBonker
Dalayan Adventurer
With fighting the same stuff over and over again u at least get good at it =D hence its easier
Firedancer_01
Dalayan Beginner
A larger guild could split into several groups of 36 if numbers swelled. Have several raid teams and well... you work it out... but I see some very fun raid nights for larger guilds. Guilds and raiding were always one of the funner things I remember about playing EQ. I really like what I see so far here on WR and don't see anything "broken" so far. Great job Wiz.
zodium
Dalayan Elder
Rambler said:
For starters, you can do either of those with 20 characters or less. Speaking as someone who knows the strat and stats of them, I can say you would arguably need maybe 20-24 for Mirror Golems. As for the rest of Prison, it's not spawned yet.
If you don't get healed on raids unless you DC, your guild quite frankly sucks at raiding and they need to shape up. I can't tell if they really do suck or what, but if that's true, they do. Aren't you like, a fucking puller?
And if you did what you propose, then you are simply detrimental to the guild and being completely selfish. If you did that in a guild I led, you would be removed and told to find another guild.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Noktar said:
I value game balance and retaining a challenging raid fight more than I value the potential occurance of someone getting turned away because an officer wants to DC or a guild has recruited too many people. The former is my job to deal with, the latter is yours.
diolas
Dalayan Beginner
Wiz said:
There never used to be such a thing as 'too many people'. You've made it our problem, and yes we'll have to find a way to deal with it. Noktar's statement remains valid though. Everytime PR finally manages to down a mob again, the rules change again. You honestly can't expect us not to be upset after having this happen to us over and over again. No one wants a trivial fight, but I know that if we again somehow manage to kill these uber mobs you're so intent on keeping alive the rules will change again.
I see a number of questions in this thread yet to be answered...
Diolas asked..
If someone on the hate list dies, is another free to jump in?
I've noticed that I can no longer FD my monk to save him from agro hits. Does this mean if I have to keep him FD'd for most of the fight (for pulling reasons) he's taking up a spot?
Are there any non agro spells that people can use to help out with the fight?
The agro radius on a lot of mobs is huge, could they be lowered so that people can't inadvertently gain agro when they're not supposed to?
No answers for these as yet..
Wiz said:
I value game balance and retaining a challenging raid fight more than I value the potential occurance of someone getting turned away because an officer wants to DC or a guild has recruited too many people. The former is my job to deal with, the latter is yours.
I might be wrong here but up until just a few weeks ago, Couldn't the higher end raid capable cleric MAINS on this server have been counted on one hand?? Granted now it is a lot easier to level a cleric up and more mains could be sought after... The problem here is that the core membership of the main raiding guilds was established well before these changes took place.
Our guild has continued to accept new recruits to cover time zone variations, class deficiencies in our raid lineup, casual players and there are just some really fun ppl out there that we enjoy playing with. Because this is a world based game I feel you can never have too many ppl... Yesterday for example we had 40 people in Dragonhorn and no Shaman.. the guild has 7-8 shaman on the roster but due to real life etc... They couldn't be at the raid or stay at the raid..
Now if we use the philosophy mentioned above and "trim the fat" so to speak... does this mean that we have to tell the 25 ppl in guild that are online.. Sorry cant raid today.. our Shaman or chanters or <insert class> aren't here.. Ok so we have a core of "hard core " players that play and raid everychance they get.. then there is a larger pool of casual players that fill in the gaps. We are a guild that caters rather well for casual players with loot distribution... So a big raid is called GOTSS for example.... All the hardcore players are on.. the casual players all want to see the top end mobs drop too.. So we get 50 ppl login.. Now.. we have to say sorry - you cant come!
Ok so how do we address this? We drop DC'd characters you say... well up until a couple of months ago this server "seemed" to be all about pro DCing The numbers online were nowhere near what they are now.. If you wanted to rack up fast XP.. you had 2 characters that complimented each other and worked them. The vast majority of the raiding clerics are DC'd.. I am fairly certain this is the case in all the higher raiding groups.
Most of the high end characters within the guild are infact DC'd... We are trying to cut this down by recruiting more folks.. but the new players need to be leveled and geared up.. To do this we we use the the higher level characters.... without the DC'd high end characters online we could not kill most of the targets we kill now.. So here we are in a catch 22 situation.. We have a bunch of lower end characters that if we invite to the raids we have to leave high end DC toons logged out and we lose the encounter... OR we Tell the lower level/geared toons sorry you cant come and we carry on with the top end toons that built the guild.... Without the 36 player rule.. Everyone could come along, have fun, and earn loot... now we have to make a choice...
Melwin wrote regarding Lord Zirvane and GOTSS:
For starters, you can do either of those with 20 characters or less.
:lol: I would really LOVE to see that.. I seriously doubt it can be done with those numbers....
The Guardian and Zirvane both died to PR last weekend... The 1st time on the server for each since they have been upgraded. We had a lot more than 20 to pull the GOTSS kill.. and man what a great feeling when he fell!!! We could probably drop him with our top 36 toons.. but then we'll have to leave a bunch out wont we.. thelower level members suffer again..
I disagree with the 36 player rule.. I feel it promotes elitist hard core style playing and leaves the casual player out in the cold. It sure feels like: "Phoenix Rising got another high end kill.. how can we slow them down and stop them from lagging out the server..."
Diolas asked..
If someone on the hate list dies, is another free to jump in?
I've noticed that I can no longer FD my monk to save him from agro hits. Does this mean if I have to keep him FD'd for most of the fight (for pulling reasons) he's taking up a spot?
Are there any non agro spells that people can use to help out with the fight?
The agro radius on a lot of mobs is huge, could they be lowered so that people can't inadvertently gain agro when they're not supposed to?
No answers for these as yet..
Wiz said:
I value game balance and retaining a challenging raid fight more than I value the potential occurance of someone getting turned away because an officer wants to DC or a guild has recruited too many people. The former is my job to deal with, the latter is yours.
I might be wrong here but up until just a few weeks ago, Couldn't the higher end raid capable cleric MAINS on this server have been counted on one hand?? Granted now it is a lot easier to level a cleric up and more mains could be sought after... The problem here is that the core membership of the main raiding guilds was established well before these changes took place.
Our guild has continued to accept new recruits to cover time zone variations, class deficiencies in our raid lineup, casual players and there are just some really fun ppl out there that we enjoy playing with. Because this is a world based game I feel you can never have too many ppl... Yesterday for example we had 40 people in Dragonhorn and no Shaman.. the guild has 7-8 shaman on the roster but due to real life etc... They couldn't be at the raid or stay at the raid..
Now if we use the philosophy mentioned above and "trim the fat" so to speak... does this mean that we have to tell the 25 ppl in guild that are online.. Sorry cant raid today.. our Shaman or chanters or <insert class> aren't here.. Ok so we have a core of "hard core " players that play and raid everychance they get.. then there is a larger pool of casual players that fill in the gaps. We are a guild that caters rather well for casual players with loot distribution... So a big raid is called GOTSS for example.... All the hardcore players are on.. the casual players all want to see the top end mobs drop too.. So we get 50 ppl login.. Now.. we have to say sorry - you cant come!
Ok so how do we address this? We drop DC'd characters you say... well up until a couple of months ago this server "seemed" to be all about pro DCing The numbers online were nowhere near what they are now.. If you wanted to rack up fast XP.. you had 2 characters that complimented each other and worked them. The vast majority of the raiding clerics are DC'd.. I am fairly certain this is the case in all the higher raiding groups.
Most of the high end characters within the guild are infact DC'd... We are trying to cut this down by recruiting more folks.. but the new players need to be leveled and geared up.. To do this we we use the the higher level characters.... without the DC'd high end characters online we could not kill most of the targets we kill now.. So here we are in a catch 22 situation.. We have a bunch of lower end characters that if we invite to the raids we have to leave high end DC toons logged out and we lose the encounter... OR we Tell the lower level/geared toons sorry you cant come and we carry on with the top end toons that built the guild.... Without the 36 player rule.. Everyone could come along, have fun, and earn loot... now we have to make a choice...
Melwin wrote regarding Lord Zirvane and GOTSS:
For starters, you can do either of those with 20 characters or less.
:lol: I would really LOVE to see that.. I seriously doubt it can be done with those numbers....
The Guardian and Zirvane both died to PR last weekend... The 1st time on the server for each since they have been upgraded. We had a lot more than 20 to pull the GOTSS kill.. and man what a great feeling when he fell!!! We could probably drop him with our top 36 toons.. but then we'll have to leave a bunch out wont we.. thelower level members suffer again..
I disagree with the 36 player rule.. I feel it promotes elitist hard core style playing and leaves the casual player out in the cold. It sure feels like: "Phoenix Rising got another high end kill.. how can we slow them down and stop them from lagging out the server..."
- Status