You knew it was coming and here it is.

[Chamelion]

From todays patch:

We'll take the bitchstorm one first. Max level an Enchanter, Necromancer or Druid can charm is now 52 (except for Dictate/Control). Max level a bard can charm is now 50. Dire Charm has been lowered to level 49. You can no longer charm mobs above your own level. Before the enchanter community flips out and quits - this is a temporary change while I figure out how to balance charm vs the rest of the game and make it more potent - but less reliable. So these levels will be raised in the future. We're just looking to prevent some pretty unbalancing things that have been happening. Count to ten, please.

1...2...3...4..5678910. :roll:

I can only guess this change has come about because people have stated that enchanters are bards are the easist to solo. Let me enlighten some of you people who have seen enchanters and bards solo. O wait, I think i'm the only enchanter i've seen who DOES solo. Almost every other enchanter i've seen is a Bot or has another Bot to back them up. So lets look at this.

First of all, enchanters unlike live are not able to charm undead. The dev's decided to make enchanters here unable to do it. We have to deal with it. But there is also golems, mushrooms, Fish (renders/fish in SG) and the list continues, which are naturally immune to charm.

Mobs have a notorious ability to resist charms. I had charm break once and had a mob resist FIVE re attempts to charm and my charisma is 290!!
And yes the mob was tashed. The normal now is about one or two resists.
As for the higher level charms which in the old way was the only way to charm past 55.
Dicate has a huge refresh time. Short duration... the only truly usefullness of this is crowdcontrol. Control, i've yet to see it in action or drop. Along with the proposed two 64 spells that were originally announced for enchanters which one was charm related.

Group wise, Charm is almost never used, it's to unreliable and tends to take away from the enchanters main responsiblites of crowd control. The exception is having a 2nd enchanter who charms something if a mob wasn't immune or above 55.

Having played an enchanter, druid and necro onlive, enchanter is by far the hardest to succesfully charm fight. Necros and Druids both have the ability to heal themselves. Enchanters have no way of healing. It is sheer luck and a hint of skill if you can survive a mob that resists charm mutliple times. I'm sure some of you are thinking.."but you have pbaoe stun or mez" A. your lucky if you can even get off a pbaoe stun with a mob hitting you. even with a 1.5 casting time. B. if you can't get off a 1.5 sec stun then your NOT going to get off a 2.5 casting time mez.

at 65th level with 290 charisma, i've had random charms last me from 10 secs to 20 min (roughly max duration) If i'm lucky it lasts till the end of the current fight. Either way since you have no way to know how long it will last, constant attention must be kept on pet and be ready to respond on a break or you just earned a debt.
Nerve racking? beyond belief.

If your reviewing charm to be more potent, then it can start with Dire Charm. Starting with it's a 9 AA cost plus the prereqs of having X in general and archtype (i think it was roughly 26 AAs plus level 59 before you can get it) It's an hour and 12 min refresh time. Here are it's biggest flaws.
1. Mobs can and will resist it, try again in an hour and 12 mins.
2. Mob is to high level so sorry please try again in an hour and 12 mins.
3. Congradulations you have DCed something, whoops zone crash or Random LD from someone zoning in or lag , please try again in an hour and two mins.

Charm does NOT need to be made Less reliable!!!
It is bad enough as is. As for making it more potent umm WHY? I was under the belief that the reason the level caps were at 55 for random charm and 60 for dictate and 62 for control with fixed was so things would not get out of hand.

Regardless you might want to take into account Rosie's whip which allows a warrior , bard and Wiz to charm mobs just like enchanters (which they cannot use)


Here are a few things I would like you to also consider when your balancing. Lets look at some comparisons shall we? By the way this info was taken from

http://camongrel.hbnet.de/spell_test/index.php



DDs

Enchanter: 65 Relic: chaotic Visions 1150
Cleric : 62 Condemnation 1190
Druid: 64 Wrath of Skies 1510
Wizard: 65 Relic : Tarhyl's Embrace 2250
Mage: 62 Shock of Sun 1150

Note it even with the 65 Relic!! spell that a Wis based casters are doing more dmg than enchanters. Mages get the same dmg at 62 but then mages have a fairly lil issue of a pet which they can heal.

Edit: on a note someone mentioned that enchanter relic spell was more efficient. I would like to add these two then.
Enchanter 61 Insanity 925 (only two DD spells enchanters get 61 and 65)
Wizard 62 Relak's rapid rending 1475
Relic spells are Rare and not easy to come by. So I added this to show the difference. There is also a refresher time for all enchanter DD spells.

DoTs

Enchanter 63 Chokehold 1300
Shaman/ 62 Caress of Sivyana 1785
necro
Druid 61 Crawling Swarm 1602

The ones listed for the other classes are Not their highest dot. I chose to show what the dmg comparison was between Enchanters highest dot and the two lowever level ones from the other dot classes. These dots being ones that are universal and not like mages or priest lines against summoned or undead.

So lets summarize. Damage output wise enchanters are the weakest. Meaning the damage the enchanter themselves can do. Can we increase others DPS? oh hell yeah. Melees with VoG, casters with mana regen and our curses we can make life wonderful for others. But I can't honestly remeber the last time I ever used Charm on a Raid. The only Charm I use in a group is DC. (when and If i can get it to last) I've used charm in a group for Crowd control, but the charm doesn't last because the pet will die before the next pull. At least if a group is smart they do it this way.

I just want people to remeber their little lists when fear is put in and the same issue arises when necros and bards will once again gain their big bad titles of soloers. The summoning ability of mobs will become irrelivant when they are snared by druids/bards/necros and then feared. Although granted druids will be stuck with animals. Bards and necros will have the run of the mobs.

I'm just hoping this turns out to not be as bad as i'm fearing it will be. On the bright side i'll have time to work on my alts.

Later..

 

[Wiz]

Before the enchanter community flips out and quits - this is a temporary change while I figure out how to balance charm vs the rest of the game and make it more potent - but less reliable. So these levels will be raised in the future. We're just looking to prevent some pretty unbalancing things that have been happening.

 

[Trig]

wow took you long enough to nerf sseru

 

[Wiz]

OK, this is what's being looked to be done right now. Charm will be divided into 4 types.

Charm (Enchanter charms, necromancer charms): Mob comes under caster's control for random duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster and if killed within one minute of charm breaking, gives no experience. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 58.

Control (Dictate, Control, Dire Charm): Mob comes under caster's control for a set duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 62.

Allure (Bard charms): Mob comes under caster's control assuming no initial resist while caster retains constant usage of bard charm song. If caster starts a different song or ends current one, charm breaks. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster and if killed within one minute of charm breaking, gives no experience. Highest songs work on mobs up to level 55.

Befriend (Druid charms): Mob comes under caster's control for random duration. After mob breaks charm, it does not attack the caster and if killed within one minute of charm breaking, gives no experience. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 55.

We think this should make charming a more viable tactic in groups, and promote using it as a means of gaining extra fighting power by keeping a steady, charmed mob, while removing the greatest benefit of charm soloing, which is the double exp gained by killing both your target and the charmed mob. The power of charming a level 58 mob would be outweighed by having an angry, summoning thing on your ass when charm breaks.

 

[Foonie]

http://camongrel.hbnet.de/spell_test/index.php



DDs

Enchanter: 65 Relic: chaotic Visions 1150
Cleric : 62 Condemnation 1190
Druid: 64 Wrath of Skies 1510
Wizard: 65 Relic : Tarhyl's Embrace 2250
Mage: 62 Shock of Sun 1150

Note it even with the 65 Relic!! spell that a Wis based casters are doing more dmg than enchanters. Mages get the same dmg at 62 but then mages have a fairly lil issue of a pet which they can heal.

Edit: on a note someone mentioned that enchanter relic spell was more efficient. I would like to add these two then.
Enchanter 61 Insanity 925 (only two DD spells enchanters get 61 and 65)
Wizard 62 Relak's rapid rending 1475
Relic spells are Rare and not easy to come by. So I added this to show the difference. There is also a refresher time for all enchanter DD spells.

DoTs

Enchanter 63 Chokehold 1300
Shaman/ 62 Caress of Sivyana 1785
necro
Druid 61 Crawling Swarm 1602

The ones listed for the other classes are Not their highest dot. I chose to show what the dmg comparison was between Enchanters highest dot and the two lowever level ones from the other dot classes. These dots being ones that are universal and not like mages or priest lines against summoned or undead.

So lets summarize. Damage output wise enchanters are the weakest. Meaning the damage the enchanter themselves can do.

DOT: You forgot mana output. Level 61 druid DOT cost 425 mana, enchanter costs 275 mana. That's 150 mana difference. Quite a lot.

DD: The highest level druid DD is outdoor only, which is why it's efficent. We have a level 63 DD that costs 365 mana and does 1250, while the chanter is 1150 for 325 mana WITH a stun component.

Note: Druid DD has a lower cast time than enchanters, but druids should be more efficent than enchanters anyway, if you ask me.
Note2: DOTs really aren't very efficent, and I get my dot resisted more than my DD I think, at least a complete resist rarely happens with my DD.

 

[kaedian]

Allure (Bard charms): Mob comes under caster's control assuming no initial resist while caster retains constant usage of bard charm song. If caster starts a different song or ends current one, charm breaks. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster and if killed within one minute of charm breaking, gives no experience. Highest songs work on mobs up to level 55.

Granted I'm merely level 32 and admittedly working out how to effectively charm to begin with, but as I read it, this seems to reduce bard charms to simply a way to lock down one mob indefinately at the expense of the remaining 7 songs currently memmed. Not sure if that's the case or the intent but thats how I read it.

 

[Bella]

I group mostly yes, but I like soloing as well and have done it very often.

I havent tested much since the patch and I havent used normal charm since I got DC (hardly used it before). All day yesterday I DCed one pet only (before patch) and had 4 attempts tell me mob was too high (two before, two after). The one I did charm was a lvl 45 named cleric in seru while grouped and had no main tank.

I have not been able to Dire charm anything since the patch so far, because not only was it changed to lvl 49, but now all my rat pets in Dragon Necropolis are now ALL over lvl 50 and cant be DC'ed under the old level cap anyway. I sure hope they start to drop spells in compensation for the added difficulty.

We (lugosis) can now only clear half as many mobs in DN rat town as before. Exp per hour is now a little slower due to down time after some fights and MUCH less cashflow incomming, please note that this never even included the really good gems, but it does include lots of very heavy weapons most get to rot an a couple lore armor bits.
--------------
I'll start with Dire Charm. - got it at lvl 61 after 27AA's (have 30 now and am lvl 62) so havent had it very long.

I used it soloing and grouping. If its resisted, there is a 1hour 12 minute wait time to try again, if mob was too high, you have a 1 hour 12 minute wait time, if you LD you have an unknown wait time because when you get back on the button and wait time are reset as if its available and you never really know till you cast it again on a mob and it actually starts to cast.

Group: Added a strong pet who could play back up tank or off tank for duration of charm in groups. I mention duration because loosing a DC pet in a group is dangerous, your removing the LD crowd control player and adding a new mob, probably during a fight, with huge buffs VOGed, Aegoed, KEIed, Warded, and whatever other buffs from other group members (regen sometimes). Our group with Layer (bard) is pretty fast to control the new mob but I dont know how happy other groups might be. LD = recoverable usually.

Solo: used it in open areas away from where I charmed the mob with lots of running room and would either hate kite or chain heal with my 100hp healing ring clicks and back pet off if I wasnt keeping up. Without the ring
I have tested sitting a pet at half health and walking away from the PC for over 30 minutes (didnt LD) and came back and it was still near 50% health when I returned. (the mob in question was a rat runner with about 8k hp) the ONLY think that make that type of mob usefull is that healing ring or down time is just insane. And even clicking 100 hp every 6ish seconds take a few mintues to regen a few thousand hps. LD during down time was safe (mob walks home) or is sitting safe distance away. LD during fight = death usually.
----------------
Normal Charm -

Group: Never used it in groups, too dangerous and unreliable and we dont need a cleric worrying about two peoples heath at the same time. The only exception to that is to split three mobs standing together, I would charm one send it on another while the tank grabs the third, I then mez the second and move charmed pet to mob to be killed first. if charm breaks it gets mezed. If that initial charm is resisted I go straight to mez/root. LD = wipe usually.

Solo: Only use it in close quarters area's like The Deep. Without running room hate kiting is impossible. If the charmed mob survived the fight I would start the charm on next mob and change pets and kill the first. When charm broke I MIGHT have time to stun both (or three) and mez them one at a time or recharm one but usually I died. LD = death.
--------------

Wiz wrote:

OK, this is what's being looked to be done right now. Charm will be divided into 4 types.

Charm (Enchanter charms, necromancer charms): Mob comes under caster's control for random duration.

no change here

After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster and if killed, leaves no experience for a certain duration of time as if it still was a pet. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 58.

For a certain duration of time? will mez mob after charm breaks for a certain duration of time to compensate. Never considered charming mobs that high in the first place and never will (agro on 55+ mobs = instant death to enchanter). the main problem with charm or even mez in the first play is that WE CANT READ THE MOBS LEVEL IN THE FIRST PLACE! its hit and miss as it is and some classes of mobs span across a level range. I am making bots JUST to con mobs to determine level. (lvl 47 any mob NOT red dire charmable under old rules - assuming a candidate and not immune)

Wiz wrote:

Control (Dictate, Control, Dire Charm): Mob comes under caster's control for a set duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 62.

nice for dictate and control which will break anyway but if I remember dictate I used only once and it lasted like 8 seconds (USELESS never used it again, its repop is VERY long as well)

never used control so no comment on it

Set duration of dire charm? where is the dire part again? where did my 27 aa's go... ;/ I wanted dire charm to be able to not worry when my charm breaks, I dont like clock watching at work and I'll be damned if I clock watch at play, if this happens bye bye DC I want my last 9 AA"s back ;/

again would NEVER consider charming any mob over 55.

Wiz wrote:

Allure (Bard charms): Mob comes under caster's control assuming no initial resist while caster retains constant usage of bard charm song. If caster starts a different song or ends current one, charm breaks. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster and if killed, leaves no experience for a certain duration of time as if it still was a pet. Highest songs work on mobs up to level 55.

Dire charm for bard? as long as no other songs used? so bards can DC a 55 mob ;/
This makes bards good for solo but if a bard charms in a group bard is now less effective for the group and will probably not be used to charm in groups unless used to CC that one mob for the duration of one fight.

Wiz wrote:

Befriend (Druid charms): Mob comes under caster's control for random duration. After mob breaks charm, it does not attack the caster but if killed, leaves no experience for a certain duration of time as if it still was a pet. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 55.

Are Shamans included here?

not much change here except that now there is no agro after enslaving a beast, and if you do choose to kill it... why? and what is this "certain duration" you keep mentioning... this = DC for druid, no agro, just simple recharm and heal. good bye druid bear pets where animals are available.

Wiz wrote:

We think this should make charming a more viable tactic in groups,

for bards and druids and not necros or enchanters
how is less reliable charms or a breaking DC more viable... how long will the DC last anyway, under the 1hour 12 minutes that alreay irks me on an LD or resist or mob is too high?

and promote using it as a means of gaining extra fighting power by keeping a steady, charmed mob,

for bards/druids again not necros/enchanters

while removing the greatest benefit of charm soloing, which is the double exp gained by killing both your target and the charmed mob. The power of charming a level 58 mob would be outweighed by having an angry, summoning thing on your ass when charm breaks.

so you are removing one method of soloing effectivley, and adding a usless, to the enchanter, and dangerous to the group, enchanter suicide lvl 58 angry mob trained into a group who now cant even mez adds cause the enchanter is dead.

To sum up: you are removing charm from enchanter spell list is all these changes effectivly do.

___________________

Bella 62 Enchanter (who spent 30 aa's to get perma illusion ;/)

 

[zillabunny]

OMG ARE YOU SERIOUS?!

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Wow thanks for telling me to count cause I just came up with a few more reasons as to why enchanter needs to be changed back...

I don't DC and I like to solo cause the groups on this server so far have always broken my mez, I am a level 48 enchanter. And at this point in the game Soloing the Cave Wyrms and Guardian Wyrms is how I've been leveling, and getting my giant faction up...

1) Enchanter has no way of dealing damage
my dot hits for 11 damage a tick, the Wyrms Regenerate faster than that.
my DD does 559 (not that but) but is resisted 40% of the time (200 CHA)

2) Dragons are Unmezzable, and Unstunable, root lasts about ~ 15 seconds and somtimes lasts 2 seconds..

3)Being level 48 it REALLY sucks to know that I'm not going to be able to charm anything higher than the white Guardian Wyrms i'm fighting right now.

4) I have less than 1000 HP with my Arch Sheilding on, i need some sort of pet

5) SPEAKING OF PETS ARE YOU JOKING??!?!!? The Enchanter pet is the biggest joke, i saw a 48 Necro fight a Cave Wyrm and his pet soloed him fine, my Enchanter's pet got him to 75% buffed with Illuionary Plate Mail and Clerity, while the dragon was slowed

****6) Typical Charm fight!!!
Tash, Root, Charm, Resist, root, Charm, (now I have a pet and 4 bubbles of mana) Slow, Resist, Pet attack, tash, slow, Dot, sit... mez breaks, Run run run root, root, break roots root, charm, Pet attack, pet kills the mob, I make the pet guard, break the charm and nuke it

7) OMG I GOT 2 XP KILLS AND I'M AT 35% MANA OMG SO UNBALANCING!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?? hardly, I earned those two kills...

I could do an 8 and 9 and 10 but my fingers are tired, I'll keep reading the news page but as of now I quit =(
You took a crappy game and made it wicked cool, I wish you could tell me what these "pretty unbalancing things that have been happening" cause knowing most of the enchanters on this server I doubt any of them were really unbalencing the play...

oh yah, and killing those Wyrms i've died almost as many times as I've succeeded, I had to start memming gate as one of my spells it was so hard to do.

 

[zillabunny]

http://camongrel.hbnet.de/spell_test/index.php



DDs

Enchanter: 65 Relic: chaotic Visions 1150
Cleric : 62 Condemnation 1190
Druid: 64 Wrath of Skies 1510
Wizard: 65 Relic : Tarhyl's Embrace 2250
Mage: 62 Shock of Sun 1150

Note it even with the 65 Relic!! spell that a Wis based casters are doing more dmg than enchanters. Mages get the same dmg at 62 but then mages have a fairly lil issue of a pet which they can heal.

Edit: on a note someone mentioned that enchanter relic spell was more efficient. I would like to add these two then.
Enchanter 61 Insanity 925 (only two DD spells enchanters get 61 and 65)
Wizard 62 Relak's rapid rending 1475
Relic spells are Rare and not easy to come by. So I added this to show the difference. There is also a refresher time for all enchanter DD spells.

DoTs

Enchanter 63 Chokehold 1300
Shaman/ 62 Caress of Sivyana 1785
necro
Druid 61 Crawling Swarm 1602

The ones listed for the other classes are Not their highest dot. I chose to show what the dmg comparison was between Enchanters highest dot and the two lowever level ones from the other dot classes. These dots being ones that are universal and not like mages or priest lines against summoned or undead.

So lets summarize. Damage output wise enchanters are the weakest. Meaning the damage the enchanter themselves can do.

DOT: You forgot mana output. Level 61 druid DOT cost 425 mana, enchanter costs 275 mana. That's 150 mana difference. Quite a lot.

DD: The highest level druid DD is outdoor only, which is why it's efficent. We have a level 63 DD that costs 365 mana and does 1250, while the chanter is 1150 for 325 mana WITH a stun component.

Note: Druid DD has a lower cast time than enchanters, but druids should be more efficent than enchanters anyway, if you ask me.
Note2: DOTs really aren't very efficent, and I get my dot resisted more than my DD I think, at least a complete resist rarely happens with my DD.

While the Enchanter dot may cost less mana it does about 800 points less damage... Enchanters are not a damage dealing class, they are a charming and sleeping class and they are totally nerfed!

 

[Yanbik]

I could be wrong but isnt a lot of the exp taken if the charmed pet does most of the dmg? So the only really good exp an enc would get is off of their charmed pet when they break it and kill it.

Also the change to bard charm will not stop charm kiting from how I understand it.

Keeping a mob charmed and controlling when charm will break makes charm kiting easier. Not being able to kill it right away is no big problem as you can just charm another mob start to have it die and come back to the almost dead one after you have killed down 1 or 2 more mobs. Granted the mob will have regen'd some health it wont take long to drop it down w/ dots. Also charm kiting is limited to the mana of the bard. With a massive 1 mana per tick standing and 2 per tick sitting with a small number of ft items on this server you wont see a bard charm kiting very effeciently compared to what a group can offer.

I could almost charm kite nonstop on live w/ my bard baring resist and he had a total of ft 11 with like 2-2.5k mana.

Maybe im wrong on some things w/ bard as mine is only lvl 40 and i havent done much charm kiting because im to lazy to do it w/ lvl 5 selos or sow.

 

[Neolic]

I have played an enchanter for a good amount of time and i must say these changes make me want to throw up.

No offense to Wiz, I know he's doing this on his free time.

Honestly, I dont have anything better to suggest but I know I liked the original LIVE system better than the original WR system for charming. Just made a lot more sense and the resists werent as bad as they are here.

 

[Wiz]

No exp is taken if you have a charmed pet.

I'd really like to see some REAL issues with the changes beyond "wah wah enchanters r underpowered".

 

[Wiz]

Bella: The set duration of Dire Charm is 23 years.

The change to bard charm might let them "dire" charm something (unless resisted) but if they are stunned, the song breaks, it lol's, and additionally, they can't do ANYTHING else with their songs.

I'm sorry if you can't handle not getting twice the exp for the same amount of work as other classes in solo situations.

That's the gist of it.

 

[Yanbik]

no exp is taken if the pet (any pet even charmed) does over 50% of the dmg?

Exp in dn just sux then 1% aa per kill duo is weak hehe

 

[Wiz]

I'm looking at some alternatives to this right now.

They include:

- Charmed mob (Not dire/controlled) that goes below 25% breaks charm.

- When charmed mob breaks charm, is is healed/protected for a short bit/whatever.

I wouldn't mind serious suggestions to fixing the double exp issue.

 

[rab]

Why not implement an exp penalty if a charmed pet does 50% of damage, or something, if the double exp for same amount of work was the issue?

And 23 years? Is that all?

 

[popbox]

Why not implement an exp penalty if a charmed pet does 50% of damage, or something, if the double exp for same amount of work was the issue?

Enchs wait until the mob is almost dead, root it, call off pet. Cast spell on pet and releases it before DD hits and kills it. This leaves the other mob to die to a DD. So there's no charmed pet left really for the xp penalty.

 

[Chamelion]

Charm (Enchanter charms, necromancer charms): .

Changing the mobs level to 58 is cool change but will not change to much. As bella stated charming a mob over 55 is death. I'll give you an example of a mob over 55. Hunting in Miels last night a crypt golem added the group. It aggroed on me first. Mudge managed to keep me alive long enough to try ELEVEN roots. NINE were interrupted. That is a root that takes 1.3 sec to cast with casting speed incr. The two that did go off it resisted both. Again i have 290 charisma. Golems are immune to stun, golems are immune to mez, golems are immune to charm. :censored: Oh and we were fighting Undead froglocks, but whoops enchanters can't charm undead

Control (Dictate, Control, Dire Charm): Mob comes under caster's control for a set duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 62.

I don't see much of a difference here from the way it was. Except that Dictate is still useless with it's short duration and long recast time. One thing I would like to ask is with the addition of Control. Thinking of what and where the mobs are that are level 62. Unless it was changed almost all planes mobs i was told were a no no for charm. Has this really changed anything? :?

We think this should make charming a more viable tactic in groups, and promote using it as a means of gaining extra fighting power by keeping a steady, charmed mob, while removing the greatest benefit of charm soloing, which is the double exp gained by killing both your target and the charmed mob. The power of charming a level 58 mob would be outweighed by having an angry, summoning thing on your ass when charm breaks.

How exactly do these changes make charming more viable in a group?!? :brow: If a charm breaks on a 50 plus mob during a fight, you almost guarentee the death of the group. Chances are you will have to
A. use pbaoe stun (which will break mez on any mobs in the area)
B. Root the mob that broke charm, but now that you have recharmed. the mob the group is fighting will have to be brought to the rooted pet for it to do dmg.
C. The amount of mana that it takes to charm a mob given resists can drain your mana pool. You will run out of mana or if your low on mana from having to mez normal adds/slow/tash etc.. you will be unable to recharm.
These changes in NO way give me the desire OR the incentive to want to charm in a group for a constant pet. NO enchanter in their right mind will keep a charmed pet in a group with current random charm or even the new changes past the current fight. Our aggro is bad enough with slow, tash, mez and stun. On top of that add the aggro from charm? :lol: can we say "Loading, Please wait."
All that has been done is make soloing a little bit more difficult for solo xping as an enchanter.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note to you Foonie

Lets just break this down shall we and end the comparison once and for all between a INT and WIS class.

DMG doing spells for enchanter
Starting at
58: Dementing Visions 775 DD
59: Asphyxiate Dot 48 a tick
61: Insanity DD 925
63: Chokehold DoT 1300
65: RELIC: chaotic Visions: 1150 DD

Druid (note: I didn't even add the insta kill banishment line for summoned to the following list)
58: Fist of Shojar AOE 812
59: Wildfire DD 1024
60: Moonfire DD 1150
61: Crawling Swarm DoT 1602
62: Winters Claim AoE 1170
63: Fist of Shiritri AoE 935
63: Flame Strike 1225
64: Wrath of the Skies DD 1510
65: Relic Doomswarm DoT 1980

The POINT Foonie was that enchanters alone. by themselves.. NO ONE ELSE ADDING DPS SUCK in comparison to other classes. The Damage spells we do are pathetic. Charm is our bread and butter if we EVER solo. Your freaking 63rd AOE does more than our 61 Single. The point that our 65 RELIC is more mana effecient? well god I HOPE so. It's a RELIC. Foonie you of all people know. At one time in mid 50s I had TWO levels on you for exp. We were both soloing and not only did you manage to catch up, but you Passed me and made 60th THREE levels ahead of me. I would have to agree.. Druids are by far more efficent than enchanters.

I still <3 ya Foonie. :hug:
But this whole thing has gotten me pretty ticked. Charming is our only real means of soloing. Necros don't have to charm, they have the sheer firepower to solo without it. Druids and Shamans also have huge amount of dmg output to augement their charms. Bards can charm without the need of mana so they have no real limit as to how long they can charm. Enchanters are stuck with a top end slow that takes 5.5 sec to cast (this is WITH speed incr for me). We can Haste our pets, but if charm breaks it makes our chances of getting off a spell to stun/root/mez the mob even less likely cause it's only going to kill us faster.

 

[Chamelion]

I'm looking at some alternatives to this right now.

They include:

- Charmed mob (Not dire/controlled) that goes below 25% breaks charm.

- When charmed mob breaks charm, is is healed/protected for a short bit/whatever.

I wouldn't mind serious suggestions to fixing the double exp issue.

These suggestions would be the opposite of what your reasons for making charm something for grouping.

"We think this should make charming a more viable tactic in groups, and promote using it as a means of gaining extra fighting power by keeping a steady, charmed mob,".

It's obvious with this the reason for these changes is simply the double xp from soloing.
I DO have a suggestion for this issue.

Charm breaks, if mob is below 25% life it despawns. No exp and no way of charming another mob to finish it off for double xp. This also means that the enchanter will have less mobs to charm on a spawn, and also prevents the enchanter from swapping charm in mid fight. The current proposed change won't work. a minute timer wont help. a mob can be dazzled for a duraion of a min n half. then killed for xp.

also as to

"I'd really like to see some REAL issues with the changes beyond "wah wah enchanters r underpowered".

I realize that enchanters are the least amount of dmg dealing in the entire game. We augment others I knew that coming into the game. I played one on live. Enchanters have no way of healing pets unlike mages/necros/druids/shamans/beastlords, hell even bards have a healing song. If your lucky you can get a healing ring here on WR. provided you are in a guild that kills Parce. I have very vivid memories of charm fighting during 50-60. Praying that charm holds a mob long enough for two mobs of equal level to fight each other. Then pray it lasts even longer for me to med long enough to do enough damage to kill what is left of my pet. Using root and my dot to keep the mob from regening to high while i medded for DD.

If your truly serious about making charming something USEable in a group. Necros / Druids / Shamans / Bards have no real need of having a charmed pet in a group. They all can offer dmg and healing as well as other things to a group. Enchanters offer augmentation. No healing, Crowdcontrol Depending on the area. In some places like Akheva, Lower Miels, Planes, we can offer nothing but group augmentation. almost EVERY caster class has root so depending on zone we are not needed. Allow enchanters like live to charm undead. At least in akheva and miels we can offer something for DPS. Also make enchanter Charms a fixed duration. ( ten to 20 min depeding on spell and it's level ) I'm not even sure if Necros are able to use thier pet heals on thier charmed undead pets. Druids, and Shamans can heal outright on charmed. Enchanters must rely upon a gorup member to heal thiers.

You wanted some suggestions and i've tried to offer what I feel would be fair but not unbalancing for a group charmed mob.

 

[Wiz]

I'm looking at some alternatives to this right now.

They include:

- Charmed mob (Not dire/controlled) that goes below 25% breaks charm.

- When charmed mob breaks charm, is is healed/protected for a short bit/whatever.

I wouldn't mind serious suggestions to fixing the double exp issue.

These suggestions would be the opposite of what your proclaiming

"We think this should make charming a more viable tactic in groups, and promote using it as a means of gaining extra fighting power by keeping a steady, charmed mob,"

It's obvious with this the reason for these changes is simply the double xp from soloing.
I DO have a suggestion for this issue.

Charm breaks, if mob is below 25% life it despawns. No exp and no way of charming another mob to finish it off for double xp.

Amazing, you can not only whine, but actually make a suggestion too?

Color me shocked.