You knew it was coming and here it is.

[Crelshna]

I grouped through level 49, and soloed up to level 53.
Despite the double experience from the two mobs in charming, I find that experience severely offset by the resists and random duration I encounter.

Assuming all goes well in a charm I will short mez, tash 3 or 4 times, and then charm it. Follow through with a kill or two and recharm a new mob.
*I refer to this as a level 53 enchanter with 224 Charisma.
What happens 50% of the time is short mez(rare resist), tash 3 or 4 times, and charm with a resist, haul ass, short mez, 3 or 4 tash, recharm.
This took a big chunk of mana and SoW/Scaled wolf illusion.

Not to forget, however, the random duration of the charm which can kill me before I get enough experience to get out of debt. (Happens about 1/2 the time I try to solo as well) If I do end up getting the mob charmed back, and the other rooted I'll have suffered a few scrapes (90% of the time).

Anyhow I'd have to say overall with resists and the random duration my experience flow isn't much over grouping, if it is, and definitely much more dangerous. The soloing offers me a chance to play a bit when I won't necessarily have the time to group with others (If I can find one). It seems balanced enough to me. As far as charming in a group I don't really consider that as part of my job description while grouping.

There's a good chance I just suck at soloing as an enchanter, but that's my view on my solo experience. I hadn't noticed any particular advantage to soloing in experience but perhaps there is...
Rabe's idea on implementing an experience penalty from kills by your charmed mob sounds good to me or Chamelion's idea on a despawning mob. Perhaps that would balance it the way you'd like it?

 

[Wiz]

Okay. This is the finality of changes:

- 1 minute idea scrapped.

- You can no longer /pet get lost or invis to break charm. I don't care how much you complain about this. I understand it was nice, but it seems to be the best way to solve the way enchanters could perfectly execute a charm break at 4%.

- Bard charm will work as before.

- Dictate/Control will work as before.

- Level stays 58 for enchanter/necro, 54 for bard.

- Druid charm will work as advertised (Befriend) with a level limit of 54.

 

[Yanbik]

neat

 

[Chamelion]

Amazing, you can not only whine, but actually make a suggestion too?

Color me shocked.

What you call a "whine", I call trying to point out the facts. You make it sound like this is the first time i've ever suggested something. Or perhaps it is because all of my others suggestions in the past have fallen on deft ears and this is the first you've acknowledged.

 

[Bella]

I wouldn't mind serious suggestions to fixing the double exp issue.

So this huge change to 4 classes spells is about a "double exp issue" that I was unaware of.

Control (Dictate, Control, Dire Charm): Mob comes under caster's control for a set duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster. Highest spells work on mobs up to level 62.

First off where does dire charm come into this? you have a charmed pet and cant recharm another for 1 hour and 12 minutes, where is exp #2? Unless I misread the above quote, it seems to say that for DIctate, Control and Dire Charm there is a "...set duration. After mob breaks charm, it attacks the caster." highest spells include Dictate and Control since DC is not a spell but an ability. So I am assuming it will remain caped at the current 49 (previous 50)

Have you ever watched someone solo The Deep (the only place I used charm as solo tool)? Mages were soloing there long before I could. When I did they were always blue or light blue mobs and could only go so far till mana ran out, I would then gate or zone, med up and come back and start over. With all the roots, mezes, charms, slows, dots, nukes, rebuffs, stuns, mana goes pretty fast, particularly since you need to keep the mob rooted to be able to sit. Root btw if you nuke or dot (initial dmg) is broken VERY easily. As was stated by zillabunny, "I earned those two kills"

It seems more a SSeru issue than other zones that people think Enchanters have the big advantage. 1st off godswords seem the big question, to my knowledge and this includes one attempt, godswords cant be dire charmed as they are too high level. Beyond that I stoped camping seru cause it took way too long to beat down the godswords huge hp pool. (I never used them as charm pets) The reason I never used them as charm pets is because:
- They hit for nearly 300 quad, almost alwasy over 200 per hit.
- They have a fairly strong resistance untashed.
- Charm was already unreliable as it is and I wouldnt risk a break mid-fight and die for the piddly 1 to 2p they drop (there is no point even looting the weapons that sell for more because they weigh you down to where you are too slow to run away when charm breaks, even in wolf form. I sure dont want to gate and bank and run back out every few fights)
For me it was easier to nuke them down around half then let root break (again) and hate kite it with pet beating it from behind. Then go get a drink or watch tv while mana came back up.
I later found that I could do the same to the Boulder Wardens for almost the same amount of time for more exp. (28 kills per AA apx)

I wouldn't mind serious suggestions to fixing the double exp issue.

Back to this... Other classes know what they can do to solo, some classes are just flat out of the solo situation all together. Mages can solo most the same zones an enchanter can, and they can solo more effectively at lower levels than an enchanter (hense the large number of mages that cant find groups who end up going out and creating a new class to group with)

I didnt choose an enchanter so I could be Uber soloer in the first place I wanted a class that
A) could solo (my main on live was monk and couldnt exp solo)
B) I soloed on a wizard on live and hated the down time without kei
- problem solved give yourself kei and solo AND give our family group kei to reduce down time and still be able to slow without a shaman.

Solution: to what? THERE IS NO ISSUE you have people blowing smoke up your butt because they have a class that cant solo as effectivly as another... when we first joined WR it was mage mage mage as solo class, now its chanter chanter chanter because they can solo AND group. But Shaman, Beast, Bard, Druid, Ranger, Necro, and yes even Cleric can solo very effectively... hmmm notice something in those? all are healers and or mana users of some sort some with mana regen or hp regen or both... who sucks as soloing? melee classes... yup thats about it, melee

/rant off

~Bella

 

[Tribal]

So the bard charm as long as you play the spell idea was scrapped?


Damn, oh well Probably would've made us too overpowered anyway.

 

[Bella]

- You can no longer /pet get lost or invis to break charm. I don't care how much you complain about this. I understand it was nice, but it seems to be the best way to solve the way enchanters could perfectly execute a charm break at 4%.

Does this affect summoned pets as well or only charmed pets... ie I cant unload a summoned pet EVER, unless it dies, to even be able to charm something else? remember they zone with me.

~Bella

 

[Wiz]

- You can no longer /pet get lost or invis to break charm. I don't care how much you complain about this. I understand it was nice, but it seems to be the best way to solve the way enchanters could perfectly execute a charm break at 4%.

Does this affect summoned pets as well or only charmed pets... ie I cant unload a summoned pet EVER, unless it dies, to even be able to charm something else? remember they zone with me.

~Bella

Obviously just charmed.

 

[Bella]

Okay. This is the finality of changes:

- 1 minute idea scrapped.

- You can no longer /pet get lost or invis to break charm. I don't care how much you complain about this. I understand it was nice, but it seems to be the best way to solve the way enchanters could perfectly execute a charm break at 4%.

- Bard charm will work as before.

- Dictate/Control will work as before.

- Level stays 58 for enchanter/necro, 54 for bard.

- Druid charm will work as advertised (Befriend) with a level limit of 54.

Very good solution /cheers

 

[Foonie]

Amazing, you can not only whine, but actually make a suggestion too?

Color me shocked.

There really is no reason to be rude, I just hope it's because the Image Devn00b thing, and this just caught you on the wrong leg. (is that even an expression?)

While the Enchanter dot may cost less mana it does about 800 points less damage... Enchanters are not a damage dealing class, they are a charming and sleeping class and they are totally nerfed!

It does 300 damage less than druid dot, and 650 less than necro/shaman. And I assume you do mean dot, unless you're trying to compare an enchanter nuke with a wizard nuke.

At one time in mid 50s I had TWO levels on you for exp. We were both soloing and not only did you manage to catch up, but you Passed me and made 60th THREE levels ahead of me.

Yeah, I remember that. Good times. But you see, that was before ancient rhinos got nerfed (or was it some of the stuff that got better?) There at least was some patch that changed around stuff a bit in WW, a while ago. It was also before Wingcaller went from to :brow:, which also gave me a big advantage. And during that period I playd a LOT, like a lot a lot. And I also playd a lot with Nazul in Seb which gave me incredible xp. That was the reason I was able to outlevel you I think, not that druids are super soloer.
To sum up: It was mainly that I playd a lot, like a lot a lot during that period because I was getting close to 60.

It's a RELIC.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but because it's a relic spell, it shouldn't be more efficent than the best druid dd spell (not counting restricted spells such as the 1.6k dd). That's at least how I see it.

I still <3 ya Foonie.

Of course you do


The way I see it, there's the classes that are attractable to a group. Tanks, enchanters, clerics and high dps. Then there's the rest of us. The way I see it, the classes less attractable for groups should have better ability to solo, because they have a harder time getting a group (and they have btw).
The reason I put enchanter as the most capable class at soloing is because I've never experienced enchanters complain over getting resisted so many times on charm/root. When I charm kite (which I often do, because it's also the most efficent ways to level, solo, for a druid) I almost never gets a resist on charm or roots. Actually I get it very rarely, and because I did not know that enchanters got as many resists as it has been stated in these posts. If they really do, they aren't as efficent solo'ers as they might be cut out to be.
From the 'final' change, it seems the only thing that has changed is charm level on mobs and that you can no longer break the charm which might make charm rather useless, since you have no way of getting rid of your pet as an enchanter, other than zoning. I don't see how that could make charming incredible useful since you can't fight with a pet that is on 20% life, you can't really charm another mob, and you can't get rid of your current pet. [maybe this is where I move into an area I don't know anything about, so I'll leave that for the chanters to comment -- meaning please don't just quote that part and then annul the rest because of retardness.]

note: I AM able to quad kite, but the only place I've found it to be efficent is rats in DN, but once a caster spawn you can no longer do that, since the caster will own. So please note that this will also nerf druid solo ability. -- No, I'm NOT writing that druids should be able to get the double xp.

 

[xXToilet_DuckXx]

shamans also get a befriend type spell. i was wondering if this will work the same way the druid befriend spell works. (ie: no agro when befriend breaks)

 

[Bhuvan]

Alright, so as I understand it, there are three issues that need to be addressed with charm:
1.) It needs to become "more potent, but less reliable."
2.) It needs to become more useful in group situations.
3.) Easy double-experience situations have to be stopped.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I agree with the double experience pulls being more than a little lame; if I had been able to muster the patience to sit through that agonizing Sseru Godsword loop for days on end, I have no doubt that I could have gone from 50 to 65 in a matter of a week if not less, and that's certainly not right considering that many other classes cannot solo *at all*.

Many of the suggestions listed here will have a positive impact on that particular issue, but nearly every one seems to have a workaround. If a charmed mob doesn't give experience for a minute, dazzle it and wait. If charm breaks or the mob depops at 25%, finish your business at 26%. Granted, killing a mob from 26% is tremendously harder than killing it from the 4 or 5% we used to, but it's also a lot closer than the 100% it started at. So perhaps a combination or new approach is needed. No amazing ideas at the moment, though

The real issue here, however--and what I think is angering enchanters the most--is that neither of the other two issues (it becoming more potent but less reliable and it becoming more useful in groups) are being addressed. The potency of an enchanter's charm is not determined by the level of things you can charm! As several people have already said, no sane enchanter will charm a 55+ mob. Even with full raid buffs, an enchanter can't tank a 55+ mob for ten seconds, nor is it supposed to be able to. Combine that with the assurance of being summoned immediately after charm breaking and you've got a cocktail of instadeath cooked up. And as for reliability, well... the only enchanter charm that's ever reliable at all is DC. Beyond normal resists, charm can (and very frequently does) break in less than a second after casting--and the line isn't exactly cheap to cast.

Now, about charm and groups--can this be addressed? I've never seen an enchanter use charm in a group for any reason beyond temporary off-tanking or crowd control, and these changes won't affect that at all. Enchanters already have so much to do in a group (often feels like I don't have enough spell slots, heh) that the risk of charm breaking in the middle of a battle, consequently removing the enchanter from it, endangers the entire group and generally makes charm unusable. It's much safer and more mana-efficient to just whip out that terribly crappy animation to add a few extra dps. At least we can control it here

Anyway, my post is getting too long--to sum things up: yes, the double experience gain is lame and needs to be addressed. However, prior to the nerf, that was the primary role of charm; its lack of reliability and the dangers that come along with it make it useless in a group situation. So, instead of shifting the role of charm to be less uber-solo-exp and more group-friendly, these changes essentially remove any usefulness of charm beyond novelty pulls.

So please, DO fix the annoying double exp issue, but also DO find a way to make it useful in groups, as well.

 

[Raull]

Posts like this are stupid. Most of chamelions comparisons don't work. On the simple fact that ENC's get shit that druids, wiz's etc. don't. Sure, My wiz has a nuke that can do 2000 dmg, but it costs 2x times as much mana as your nuke to cast.

Yvina's best nuke is only slightly less efficient than my wizards best nuke at lvl 60. Dmg/mana ratio my friend. The only bonus I have on my nuke is it doesnt have as long a recast time. Plus, comparing enc to any other class you have to take in effect that a wizard or druid cant buff a grp like a enc.

Before Wiz changed pet aggro, a enc could dire charm a lvl 50 guard in mistwoods and have a better tank than a war with the dps output of a rogue!


Also, previously, a enc could spend 400 mana(provided charm isnt resisted) and get 2 sseru godswords down to below 5% hp in like 3 mins. Do you know how much mana it takes my wizard to do the same in the same amount of time?

Wiz is absolutely right for nerfing charm, I play a 55 bard and I KNOW its overpowered.

If groups were easier to get on WR, it wouldnt be so overpowering I think, but even rahl stated once he could solo in sseru prior to this nerf and get xp almost as fast as if he were in a perfectly balanced group in eldenals. I really wish my WIZ could do the same.

 

[nibpib]

Well seru is out of the picture even without the nerfs. If theres more then 4 people in that zone it starts getting all buggy.

5 deaths in a row, including a trip to Qyenos docks and a random teleport onto a bunch of honor guards/ unseen hands puts a bad taste in your mouth.

Anyway, good solution wiz. At least the pets can still be used in groups.

 

[Chamelion]

Posts like this are stupid. Most of chamelions comparisons don't work. On the simple fact that ENC's get shit that druids, wiz's etc. don't. Sure, My wiz has a nuke that can do 2000 dmg, but it costs 2x times as much mana as your nuke to cast..

There was only one comparison.. Enchanters by themselves deal the least amount of dmg from nuke/dot of any class in the game over all.

Yvina's best nuke is only slightly less efficient than my wizards best nuke at lvl 60. Dmg/mana ratio my friend. The only bonus I have on my nuke is it doesnt have as long a recast time. Plus, comparing enc to any other class you have to take in effect that a wizard or druid cant buff a grp like a enc. .

Oh silly me, thats right... because 90% of our spells are group buffs we should forever be stuck following someone around begging for a group for exp. Forget the silly little issue of our spells being of a single line that is the most resistant in the game. And on top of that the are sub par to every other caster for dmg in the game. But silly me.. at 65 if we manage to find our TOP end spell, we have a spell that is actually more mana effecient? Well that doesn't seem to help us level 1 to 64 now does it?

I'm guessing this is the 60th spell your talking about. You get SEVEN at level 60 so this was the most effecient. Fire/Cold/Magic/AoE so many to choose from.

Ancient: Destruction of Ice
Classes:
Wizard: 60
Mana: 250
Targets: All
Casting time: 5000 (5 seconds)
Duration: Instant
Effects: Decrease Hitpoints by -1200(L1) to -1200(L65)
------------------------------------------------------
compared with enchanters:
Insanity

Classes:
Enchanter: 61
Mana: 345
Targets: All
Casting time: 6500 (6.5 seconds)
Duration: Instant
Effects: Decrease Hitpoints by -925(L1) to -925(L65)
Increase Stun by 1(L1) to 1(L65)

and of course the UBER mana effecient :roll:
Relic: Chaotic Visions
Classes:
Enchanter: 65
Mana: 325
Targets: All
Casting time: 6000 (6 seconds)
Duration: Instant
Effects: Decrease Hitpoints by -1150(L1) to -1150(L65)

Also, previously, a enc could spend 400 mana(provided charm isnt resisted) and get 2 sseru godswords down to below 5% hp in like 3 mins. Do you know how much mana it takes my wizard to do the same in the same amount of time? .

Yes I remeber SSeru. I remeber how many times I died charming godswords. Lets see if i remeber how it goes. Mez, Tash, Charm send after another godsword. Root other godsword. DOT target. Try to sit and regain mana, root breaks, re root, DD, cause target is doing more dmg than pet. Charm breaks.. resist, recharm. re root . send back in.. Finally target dies.. your pet is at 6 % life. Root as breaking charm, DD for roughly 800 if your below 61 and guessing you have at least dmg incr II. That does roughly 3% of a godswords health. DD again, root breaks reroot. med for mana.. DD for a 3rd time and hope there is no resists/parital resists so you can kill it. You have killed two godswords, your at zero mana. Unless you are 60th you will be sitting there with clarity II regaining mana.

If groups were easier to get on WR, it wouldnt be so overpowering I think, but even rahl stated once he could solo in sseru prior to this nerf and get xp almost as fast as if he were in a perfectly balanced group in eldenals. I really wish my WIZ could do the same.

OMG could it be that you CAN do something that yields the same amount of exp? Called Quad Kiting? Like in DN, WW, and countless other zones?
Wizards/Druids ability to quad kite got nerfed. Now it's time for charm classes to get nerfed and most important of all. And it will happen to Shadowknights/Necros with fear kiting and killing mobs with little or no chance of death. I'm sure wizards once there are enough wizards on the server with manaburn a recast timer will be put on mobs just like on live.

 

[Raull]

I've solo'd godswords in sseru with churro(lvl 62 enc) for hours and hours without dieing. I've seen rahl do it countless times, and ive seen trig do it. Hell, ive seen bhuvan in there doing it for hours without dieing, so I know im not the only one. For christ sakes man, you even get a self cast illusion that gives you SOW speed. And you are telling me you cant run away if charm is resisted? pffft.

And the fact that you try to argue that quad kiting is as good xp is laughable. Wizards don't get KEI, so the downtime between pulls is like 5 min if you are fighting anything higher than lvl 50.

Think about it this way, for 400 mana pre nerf you could cast a spell that would act like a dot, but instead of 75 or 125 a round like most dots, it did 450 a round. That's exactly what a enc gets when it charms a 52+ npc.

 

[Nuralia]

As an ex-wizard (ask anyone old, i WAS one) I can tell you quad kiting was NOT as efficent as charm killing is recently. You don't have enough mana to quad anything that's more than a few levels higher than light blue. Let's take the wizard Izzn. he can do about 20-25k damage on a full mana bar with his most efficient single DDs. Without KEI. Godswords have about 15k HP. So, for more than half mana, he can kill one godsword. With AEs, he'd run out of mana beforehand (AEs are much less efficient than single DDs.).

The fact is, wizards get more efficent DDs, because they can't do much else. They can't charm mobs that do 450 a round. Even with their sword pet, they need to burn a lot of mana to keep aggro to prevent it from taking a hit and dying.

I'm sorry you feel that way Chamelion, but enchanters are a group class. Just like shamans are. Just like warriors. Just like rogues. Just because there are no groups here doens't mean we should make enchanters completely solo-friendly. After all, isn't that self-defeating? Why would an enchanter group if they got better XP soloing than grouping? Then we'd left with a bunch of enchanters in outdoor zones and empty dungeons.

Quad kiting has much, much, MUCH more downtime than charm killing. And it's downtime that kills the game, not XP rate.

I don't really expect to be listened to here. After all, what do I know? I'm only a developer here, I can't know ANYTHING about the game. It's not like I played a wizard pre-quadkiting nerf (like, when I could AE 8 mobs with a targeted AE) and yet, Rahl still manages to get XP faster than me with charm-kiting. Think I'm lying? Think I'm exaggerating? Well, why would I be telling the truth? I'm just out to screw you all over, aren't I? I'm on staff, I must be. I can't possibly be helping you to enjoy the game.




PS. I hope someone tells me I'm out of line and being bitchy for no reason. That would really want me to continue working on this for you guys.

 

[Trig]

hey chamelion, let me make a small correction to how killing godswords works

tash, charm.
tash mob you want dead, pet attack and wait

if your pet kills it, sweet.
if your pet is losing, start casting nuke when your pet is at 6% health, release pet just before nuke finishes casting, you get exp.
run a bit, root other mob

tash another mob, charm, pet attack almost dead mob

and so on...

you can very easily be charm soloing non stop killing for hours, partially afk, and not go below 60% mana

even at level 53, when you get Boltrans, you will rarely have mana troubles, main concern is getting stunned/nuked by those pesky archons due to a low level enc most likely having low magic resist

 

[Fjodor]

I'm not the one that usually complain about people, but this topic is going insane, why you ask ?
Well, you compare DD's between a enchanter and a wizard, oh no, wizards do more dmg.....
You compare charmed pets with mage pets, well.... eh... mages are the master of pets... but still you can charm a npc that is better than a mage pet.
You compare, lol, don't even remember now....
Anyway you compare enchanters to like 5 or 6 other classes.
Sure, compare em but then use everything from every class and don't compare enc vs wiz on DD, ench vs mage on pet, ench vs shammy on slow and so on.
Let see, what do wizards have for slow... oh they don't, pets then, yes they have, ok they are lol, can a wizard haste... yes. or. eh... no they can't. well, wow, wizards have better DD's than enchanters, ok chanters suck.
It's silly to compare one class against several others when picking one item out of each of the other classes.
Let's compare : warrior vs sk, sk can cast aggro spells, WAH warriors can't hold aggro, war vs rogue, rogue does more DPS WAH wars suck, war vs monk, war can't split mobs WAH wars suck, war vs and so on and so forth.
Compareing one class vs another class best ability is just dumb, like wiz has stated, he has made the changes to enchanters to BALANCE ALL THE CLASSES. Now he came up with a solution for enchanters in like what.... 12 hours after patch ???
Look at beastlords, how long has they been waiting ? And do you hear them complain (sure, here and there) but they don't sit down in a corner and cry for mommy. Ok, I should stop now before I insult anyone or anything, sorry if I used harch words but I got pissed by some peoples whines as soon as their class changes to what they think is a nerf.

 

[popbox]

Just FYI, wizards have slow on one if their innates iirc.