What is the role of the Shaman?

Lyte said:
Nuncio said:
I don't mean to be contrary... but I found my shaman (only played to 62, admittedly) to be extremely usefull and versatile.
When I was two boxing him with my SK, I had some great macros worked up. Stand up, sic pet, cast slow, cani, cast dot, cani. cani, heal SK and sit. Somtimes added a macro for debuffs. Or If I was with a group, would just cut out the macroed heal and use it for more damage or debuffs.
Now, I know you don't want to bot your main, but the fact was, the SK became more bot than the shammy. Just had to have him attack and cast aggro spells now and then, after pulling with him.
Later, I started playing the shammy more when I wasn't 2 boxing. Nice pad heals, groups loved him.
If I were to start playing SoD with any regularity again, I'd probably spend more time on the shammy than my SK.
When I raided with Ruin, and we needed to camp a botted toon, the SK got camped quite a bit more often than the shammy did near the end there. The shammy just brought so much to the group.
And in XP groups, he was even better, because he could do some pretty good healing as well as pretty good damage, and keep quite a few buffs on the group, with group stat buffs.
*shrug* I dunno, maybe my SK sucked so hard that in comparison, my sucky shaman didn't seem as sucky as he really was.
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I could probably write a similar paragraph about every single class in the game.

I don't mean to be contrary... but I found my Bard to be extremely useful and versatile. When I was two-boxing him with my Shaman, I had some great macros worked up. I would cast mana-regen to decrease down-time, and could even mez when adds got out of control. If I was in a group, I could add even more versatility through haste spells! In fact, the Shaman became more of a bot than my Bard because all I needed to do with him in a group was to DoT, send a pet, and heal!

I don't mean to be contrary... but I found my Enchanter to be extremely useful and versatile. When I was two-boxing him with my Shaman, I had some great macros worked up. I would cast KEI to decrease downtime, and I could mez adds, and even haste my group.

I don't mean to be contrary... but I found my Ranger to be extremely useful and versaile. When I was two-boxing him with my Shaman, I had some great macros worked up. I would sit down, and memorize my spells over and over again because I died before I could cast them.

Oh wait, the last one didn't exactly work, but you get the point ;) I didn't mean to be rude, but the idea is that your "personal" opinions may not be the critical analysis of the class that helps focus attention on where the Shaman is lacking and where the Shaman excels. Every class is "fun" and can contribute something to a raid group depending on the player, so saying you prefer X class over Y class does not necessarily mean X class is perfectly balanced.
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I don't remember implying that shaman are perfectly balanced. Nor do I remember implying that my personal view of the class is the only one that matters.
In addition, your conjectures on the class are just that as well, conjectures. Perhaps more, perhaps less, informed than my own conjectures. I don't know.
All your little scenarios did was convince me that if played correctly, anything can be botted or mained with good results... (except rangers, of course.)
Shaman do lack in some areas, and excel in others... thats what makes them different than other classes. Do they need help? I don't know. But all this "I didn't know shaman sucked otherwise I wouldnt have leveled up to 50" stuff, well, I dunno. No one ever turned my shaman down for a group. :\
 
Nuncio,

When I try to discuss X class balance, I try to use a numerical approach. This means that I say things such as, "X spell induces more aggro than Y spell, is this balanced?"

"X class heals for this efficiency with HPS (heal-per-second), aren't they lacking versus the other Priest classes, and if so, what should be changed?"

I rarely use personal "enjoyment" or whether or not I am invited into groups as a reason for class balance. This is what I tried to say in my previous post. For example, good players are rarely rejected from a group regardless of class; therefore, does a statement like "I am never really rejected from a group as a Shaman" really say anything?

The other players who say, "I didn't know Shamans sucked or I wouldn't have done XYZ" also are not helpful really because they don't provide analysis or focus (either empirical, numerical evidence) or conceptual (what the class role *should* be) to be helpful for class balance discussions.
 
Let's throw out some more numbers then. Go ahead and compile a list of buffs, debuffs, slows, dots, dd's, heals, mana regen capabilities, and whatever else you'd like to compare ot other classes. I'd break them into levels, 65, 60-64, 49-59, 30-49, 10-20 and 1-9.
Then list other classes you'd like to compare at all these levels, with their abilities to do these things as well.
Only when we look at the ENTIRE picture can we start making balance judgement calls.
It could be an interesting project.
You'd need to assign relative values to various skills in what different classes do. For instance, what is the value of a shamans damage output considering it isn't a DPS class? It's ability to DO DPS makes it's damage output more 'valuable' since it is able to switch to this role, against a true DPS class, or even some dps-ish hybrids... That would have to be later though, I guess, but would weigh in at the overall 'goodness' or 'badness' of the shaman class at some point.
In any case, I'd take a look at the healing and debuffing/buffing classes (chanter, cleric, druid, bst) first.
Have at it, then we can actually make better judgements about what needs to be looked at.
 
That's generally the point.

I wrote 15+ page reports for Druids and Shamans in WoW Alpha/Beta, and much of the stuff was implemented and used.

My report for raid itemization was over 30+ pages long.

But I don't have the time to do that right now for Shamans. Maybe later next month when my space frees up :p

About some questions you suggested, you don't have to compare Shamans to all classes per se. At the beginning, you would compare Shamans to the other Priest classes, typically Druids and Clerics. This simplifies your other questions about "values" because all Priest classes can do damage. Druids have Thorns/and better nukes than Shamans, and Clerics have the worst damage of the Priest classes but the best healing. Comparison between the priest classes will be the best source of theoretical questions and ideas of how to balance a specific priest class.

We also would not have to compare all level ranges, because balance is often done in segments. Low level range, mid-range, and end-game are three actually separate balance discussions. All classes should be balanced with one another in all phases, but to tackle them all at once would be quite a tremendous task; therefore, it's much easier to focus on one phase at a time. As shown in this thread, I tend to focus on end-game balance, while Mog tends to focus on low and mid-range.

At the end of the archetype class balance discussions, you would then have to answer the question, "What does X class bring to a raid that no other class brings? Is this valuable enough that they are always a valuable contribution to a raid?" You will notice almost every class has a certain "niche" or special skill/spell/ability that they bring to a raid that makes them desireable. All classes need to have this special "niche," and when all classes have it and none of them are necessarily more viable than the other classes, this is when balance is finally complete.
 
If you compare them only to other priest classes, I think the other priest classes will come up terribly short.
They can neither slow, nor debuff in any real way, and have much less mana regen.
 
For Druids...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Damage Shields? Mini-Complete Heal? Can they nuke as hard? Group/Self Teleport?

For Clerics...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Complete Heal? Cast 96% Resurrection? Have DA? Cast Heal-over-Times? High DPS vs Undead?

You have to note the similarities as well, both Druids and Shamans have potent DoT spells, both of them also have pets that do fairly well with Shaman pet edging the Druid pet, while Clerics and Shamans share buffing prowess, etc etc.

I don't think the other priest classes fall short at all when you actually compare them. Shamans aren't bad healers, but compared to Druids and Clerics, depending on the aspect of healing (HPS or ability to sustain heals on a tank), Shamans are actually the worst.
 
As I've said before here it is my belief that the shaman needs a resist reduction in slows and a basic non XP rez to fill them out nicely. This would make slow usable in XP group situations and give them a rez ability that tribal healers ought to have had in the original vision of the game (in my opinion). I'm not saying that it needs to match the abilities of the cleric, just that it should be there at all.
 
Webtroll said:
As I've said before here it is my belief that the shaman needs a resist reduction in slows and a basic non XP rez to fill them out nicely. This would make slow usable in XP group situations and give them a rez ability that tribal healers ought to have had in the original vision of the game (in my opinion). I'm not saying that it needs to match the abilities of the cleric, just that it should be there at all.
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Thay already have a rez at 39.
 
Lyte said:
For Druids...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Damage Shields? Mini-Complete Heal? Can they nuke as hard? Group/Self Teleport?

For Clerics...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Complete Heal? Cast 96% Resurrection? Have DA? Cast Heal-over-Times? High DPS vs Undead?

You have to note the similarities as well, both Druids and Shamans have potent DoT spells, both of them also have pets that do fairly well with Shaman pet edging the Druid pet, while Clerics and Shamans share buffing prowess, etc etc.

I don't think the other priest classes fall short at all when you actually compare them. Shamans aren't bad healers, but compared to Druids and Clerics, depending on the aspect of healing (HPS or ability to sustain heals on a tank), Shamans are actually the worst.
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Can a cleric or druid take the role of slower (which increases the shamans healing ability indirectly, as less damge is taken to the MT), handle debuffs, and main healing in a group? With some well placed cannis inbetween these actions, a shaman can do this pretty much nonstop.
Again, I'm not saying this makes shaman balanced in any, or all, situations. I'm just saying, that under certain circumstances, the shaman comes out ahead. Does it come out enough ahead in these circumstances to balance their shortcomings in other circumstances? I don't know. That's why we'd need the hard numbers.
 
Arg, thanks. I was trying to figure out why there was a discrepancy.

So how about that slow resist redux? Oh well, never hurts to wish...
 
Nuncio said:
Lyte said:
For Druids...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Damage Shields? Mini-Complete Heal? Can they nuke as hard? Group/Self Teleport?

For Clerics...
Can Shamans group heal? Cast Complete Heal? Cast 96% Resurrection? Have DA? Cast Heal-over-Times? High DPS vs Undead?

You have to note the similarities as well, both Druids and Shamans have potent DoT spells, both of them also have pets that do fairly well with Shaman pet edging the Druid pet, while Clerics and Shamans share buffing prowess, etc etc.

I don't think the other priest classes fall short at all when you actually compare them. Shamans aren't bad healers, but compared to Druids and Clerics, depending on the aspect of healing (HPS or ability to sustain heals on a tank), Shamans are actually the worst.
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Can a cleric or druid take the role of slower (which increases the shamans healing ability indirectly, as less damge is taken to the MT), handle debuffs, and main healing in a group? With some well placed cannis inbetween these actions, a shaman can do this pretty much nonstop.
Again, I'm not saying this makes shaman balanced in any, or all, situations. I'm just saying, that under certain circumstances, the shaman comes out ahead. Does it come out enough ahead in these circumstances to balance their shortcomings in other circumstances? I don't know. That's why we'd need the hard numbers.
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Uh, didn't you just prove my point? Shamans excel at some areas versus Druids and Clerics, just like Druids and Clerics excel at certain areas themselves. This proves that the priest classes are actually semi-balanced, when you suggested that Druids and Clerics would fall way behind the Shaman.

Secondly, once Priest balance discussion is complete, think about class niches in raid situations.

What do Shamans bring to a raid that no other class does other than certain buffs (note that almost all classes have 1 "unique" buff to give to a raid)? Before in Live, it was the best Slows. Now, with a lot of slow immune mobs and 3 other classes with similar Slows in SoD... what do Shamans bring that defines their role?

The only unique thing is when mobs are NOT Slow immune and when they are vulnerable to Poison or Disease Slows (which requires a quest to even get)...
 
My point was, is that if you only are looking at ONE aspect of priest classes (healing), you are getting a very skewed look at what's going on. Even more so If you only look at one type of situation, instead of all fo them, and make decisions of the weight these different situations carry in relation to a given class' main function.
If, as you say, priests are fairly well balanced, then why were you refuting my initial statement that in my opinion, the shaman class did pretty well for itself :\
 
Nuncio said:
My point was, is that if you only are looking at ONE aspect of priest classes (healing), you are getting a very skewed look at what's going on. Even more so If you only look at one type of situation, instead of all fo them, and make decisions of the weight these different situations carry in relation to a given class' main function.
If, as you say, priests are fairly well balanced, then why were you refuting my initial statement that in my opinion, the shaman class did pretty well for itself :\
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Who was looking at only one aspect of priest classes or just one situation?

Priests are fairly well balanced at SOME stages of the game and SOME level phases.

But answer the question (and this is where I focus on), what do Shamans provide that is unique to raids, other than buffs? (all classes almost have 1 unique buff to add to raid utility)

Other than the few bosses that are immune to Magic Resist and require Poison/Disease Slow... what are the roles of Shamans, what is their niche?
 
What do they bring nothing else does? Not much. You can't have that in a game where there are in reality, only tanks, healers, buffers and DPS. Those are the four classes of SoD. What names you give em and what special little powers you give em individually doesnt mean much.
I've seen a coupel of very competent shaman, however, do a world of good in end-game content (prison). When used correctly, they can be a great boon to any group or raid.
 
I'm just gonna chip in my dealie about shamans, since my main is one.

I find shamans (and I'm not blindly saying this, I have alot of alts to compare to) are the most versatile priest by far, and also one of the most powerful classes in the game.


Shaman DPS is mad. You've got an extremly high damage poison dot, that you can couple with another longer duration disease dot.

You've got great healing - mind you, your heals don't match up with druids or clerics, but they are pretty mana friendly for their power. My shaman crits for 5500 hp heals regularly. You've got a great relic direct heal, and an awesome quick heal.

You've got slow, malo, cripple.

You've got the second best HoT in the game. It's self only, but that's nothing bad at all. It costs practically no mana, which makes it perfect for healing raid splash damage, or group. It also can allow the shaman to tank for a group (I've done it a few times).

You've got the widest assortement of the best buffs in the game. Namely your stat buffs.

The best part of the shaman, and arguably overpowered part: Canni.


So let's go over this:

Best priest DPS.
Best debuffs.
Best stat buffs.
Comparable healing (let's keep slow into the question as it cuts a huge amount of healing needed).

Most mana efficent class, even when compared with a necro.

Shamans have nothing to complain about.

As for leveling up a shaman, I think it was a little difficult, but after 60 it was a breeze. But that was over two years ago I did that. So I'm not going to speak for that, nor am I going to level another shaman just to see. :p
 
No one is denying that Raherin,

But the same posts could be made about other classes.

i.e:

Druids have the 2nd best Damage Shields.
Druids have the best Regeneration spell.
Druids have one of the best quick target-heals.
Druids have one of the best group-heals.
Druids have the second best single-heal.
Druids are 1 of 2 classes that have teleport.
Druids have the 3rd best DoTs.
Druids have "secondary" debuffs (fire debuffs for Mage/Druid DPS)

But Shamans lost their "edge," which was that they were the best Slowers.

They are still the most diverse slowers, but few encounters require Poison/Disease Slow.

I've played Druids, Shamans, Rangers, Warriors, Paladins and Monks in end-game raiding thus far, and I've only boxed Clerics, so I've played most of the classes as "main" end-game raiders and that's where my experience draws from.

I think a few classes like Paladins, Rangers and Shamans are slowly losing their "niche" in end-game raiding. Sure, they can do regular groups fine and can fill in spots in a pinch, but what is that special "oomf" that they add to a raid?

It's not unreasonable to keep trying for the perfect balance where every class is equally desired on a raid. It's hard with the Holy Triad (War/Clr/Wiz always being optimal desireability), but it's possible.
 
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