What is the role of the Shaman?
- Thread starter moghedancarns
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rab
Dalayan Beginner
I think everyone needs to focus on one aspect of shaman issues. You cannot simultaneously fix raid, high level grouping, mid level grouping, and low level problems in one, fell swoop. Mogger's topic is mid - high level shaman. There is no reason to discuss shamans at the raid end nor the high level AAd end, as they are a good, strong class at that point.
Bernat said:That would make aa-slow worse that it is now. AA-Slow is an unresistable 75% slow that lasts for 1 minute and generates little to no aggro, as far as I know (has a casting time or around 2 seconds). So why make it a debuff so you can land your regular slow later? That will turn your AA-Slow into an AA-Debuff + Spell Slow that will take 8 seconds to cast, will slow the mob for 50% and lasts 5 minutes (with either no aggro or no resist chance). Did you try AA-Slow before making that suggestion? AA-Slow currently works fine as it's supposed to do (or as I think it's supposed to do), quick and huge slow for boss fights that makes the engage less painfil (you know things are sometimes a bit chaotic on engageLyte said:). It also gives time to the MT to build some aggro before you do Resist Debuffs and cast your regular slow.
Forget about that suggestion if I understood it well
EDIT: I think I read somewhere that the recast and cast time on AA's can't be changed. Maybe this is why you suggested the change, but even then, I wouldn't like it.
We'll do more testing with the AA Slow.
Right now, since it's only been about 2 months since we started, we don't have great gear or many AAs yet (in the 30s range)... so perhaps that's the case here and our Warrior takes longer to hold enough aggro for the AA Slow to land early in the fight witout aggro. Is it supposed to be 0 aggro, or little aggro?
About the suggestion being worse, I don't know about that. With new resist changes, parsers would indicate that a 8-second cast-time (debuff AA + regular slow) for 5 minutes of 50% slow prevents more damage than 1 minute of 2-second cast time (AA Slow) for 75% damage. The second option would be more prevention if you could land Slows consistently, but it's tougher with the resist changes and more often than not, the first option should prevent more damage.
I'll have to do more testing with Festering Insect's and Plague of Insects too though, but as it is, resists are pretty tough to break through on some raid mobs atm.
Even so, it seems like Shamans have to get so much "extra," just to be at a level where they *should* be relative to other casters/priests. 28 AAs just for Canni V, almost a requirement for Shamans... then another 5 AAs for Drowsed Thoughts, then more AAs for Hastened Drowsed Thoughts, then the epic mask for a better Slow over other classes? Then they have to do a spell quest, just to get the diversity for their Slows?
moghedancarns
Dalayan Beginner
How about we not piss off the nice people who said they would look at some stuff.
rab said:
The issues are kind of linked though--high-end Shaman and raid-end that is.
For example, you say that raid-end Shamans are a good, strong class, but high-level Shamans are not. Part of the reason is because Shamans have to go through so much "extra" at L65 to become that good, strong class relative to toher classes.
If Shamans *had* some of those benefits all along, they would possibly be a good, strong class relatively throughout their careers.
guyvertoo said:
Yeah, we've been farming Cmal2 with our no gear and AAs for awhile, and breaking through Cmal3 as we learn it.
Is this surprising for some reason?
Not to mention, we know root-mez is iffy in Cmal3, so obviously it would be iffier in Cmal4 because it is harder than Cmal3...?
Well, this is how I use it:Lyte said:
- Cast AA-Slow to pull the mob or right after the pull.
- If you pulled, the warrior can use AE Taunt to take it to himself. Knights can use spells. If the mob was pulled to the MT, then the mob will stay with the MT. AA-Slow gives a really low aggro, if any at all.
- After you've AA-Slowed it, you have one full minute to cast Malo and your regular Slow on the mob. I usually do Malo like 10 seconds after the pull and wait until 30 seconds have passed to try slowing it. You better have some free seconds in the end in case the mob resists it the first time, and you better have a magic-based slow in case the disease one won't land.
- Switch to padding
.I have finished many raids with this "technique", so it can't be that bad
.Bernat said:Well, this is how I use it:Lyte said:
- Cast AA-Slow to pull the mob or right after the pull.
- If you pulled, the warrior can use AE Taunt to take it to himself. Knights can use spells. If the mob was pulled to the MT, then the mob will stay with the MT. AA-Slow gives a really low aggro, if any at all.
- After you've AA-Slowed it, you have one full minute to cast Malo and your regular Slow on the mob. I usually do Malo like 10 seconds after the pull and wait until 30 seconds have passed to try slowing it. You better have some free seconds in the end in case the mob resists it the first time, and you better have a magic-based slow in case the disease one won't land.
- Switch to padding
I have finished many raids with this "technique", so it can't be that bad
We don't have AE Taunt on our warriors yet
But when we do, then yes, everything you suggest will work. Right now, we can't even cast Malo/Slow at the beginning of fights because of our lack of gear on aggro'ers when farming places like Cmal2. (And our Pal/SKs can't main tank those areas yet) But, this strategy guarantees the Warrior use up the timer on AE Taunt if he has to pull off the Shaman. If it's like Live, then the timer on Taunt is pretty significant, and using it up at the start of pulls might not be optimal. Anyways, we'll check back when we have some gear, AAs and some more trials.
BarryHalls
Dalayan Beginner
I think rab said shamans do have better slows...... From what I see that's only with the epic and only by 5%. In live ith was without the epic and by 20%, that's a huge difference. Obviously slows, and mob DPS was too high in live, but 5% isn't a big enough difference to bring in a shaman over a druid when you already have a chanter/bard and you have to have a chanter/bard for mezzes for any serious grinding/crawling group.
People keep talking about shamans as main healers. It's just not practical. The have the least heals of the 3 priests, the pally is only a little behind them. If you have a shaman as main healer and are doing well, you are taking it REALLY easy or your tank is just amazingly uber. Whatever the case, clerics were meant to be, or proved to be in live, the only main healers, if you are managing it with another priest it's about half the heals per second/safety of having a cleric doing it. If a shaman is managing main healing a cleric (or even a druid) could take the group to a harder camp.
I am impressed that so many people have made it by with a shaman as main healer though, but on this server i get the feeling it's all been the same shaman
People keep talking about shamans as main healers. It's just not practical. The have the least heals of the 3 priests, the pally is only a little behind them. If you have a shaman as main healer and are doing well, you are taking it REALLY easy or your tank is just amazingly uber. Whatever the case, clerics were meant to be, or proved to be in live, the only main healers, if you are managing it with another priest it's about half the heals per second/safety of having a cleric doing it. If a shaman is managing main healing a cleric (or even a druid) could take the group to a harder camp.
I am impressed that so many people have made it by with a shaman as main healer though, but on this server i get the feeling it's all been the same shaman
I'm like 99% sure that even an arrow shoot by the Warrior will take the mob off your AA-Slow. And that's not the tactic for regular fights, just for bosses since the recast of AA-Slow when you first take it is 2 hours. (I would leave any exp-group that killed a mob every 2 hoursLyte said:We don't have AE Taunt on our warriors yetBernat said:
But, this strategy guarantees the Warrior use up the timer on AE Taunt if he has to pull off the Shaman. If it's like Live, then the timer on Taunt is pretty significant, and using it up at the start of pulls might not be optimal. Anyways, we'll check back when we have some gear, AAs and some more trials.
.) The recast for AE Taunt is 10 minutes, iirc.As for slow in exp-groups, I already agreed with you, and I suggested a new spell (or line of) of low-resist, low-aggro, low-% slows.
[quote="BarryHalls]I am impressed that so many people have made it by with a shaman as main healer though, but on this server i get the feeling it's all been the same shaman
[/quote]I've been mainhealing in a group already with a lvl 65 mid-end shaman. It works, the problem is that when facing a really tough mob, a cleric or druid can burn his mana chaincasting huge heals to keep the MT alive, and then having to wait to med up to full or some optimal %.With shamans, this doesn't happen. When we face a really tough mob and we're mainhealing, the MT will most likely die. This is because we base our healing power not based on huge heals, but on more heals. So the MT will die when you're probably at 70m, or you will run out of mana because you have to chain cast quick heals to keep him alive. Even if I don't like it, I understand it's soem different focus we have on the healing aspect.
There are places I dislike, like CMal, that I have even switched my role with the cleric. I started healing and I told him to nuke because I felt suboptimal in that place. This is because mobs had a high resist against slows and were immune to poison. My other dot, the disease one, simply didn't last enough to do the damage of a single nuke. So I told the cleric to go into melee / nuke (shaman nukes are crappy
) and I did the healing thingies.BarryHalls
Dalayan Beginner
I was pointing out what you expounded upon bernat, shamans can heal, and obviously very well over time but they can't cut it when the stuff hits the fan. So being a healer shouldn't be a huge plus on the blance side.
Like I said every good group needs a messer, so in order for the game to balanced with chanters/bards and shamans /beast lords the slow table needs to look pretty close to:
Shaman 70%
Enchanter 60%
Beast Lord 50%
Bard 40%
Hybrid spells aren't sposed to be as powerful as caster spells. Since every good XP group needs a mezzer shamans have to have noticibly better slows than chanters and BL's have to be noticably better than bards to be desired, the only reason I don't think they should have better slows than chanters is because they do such great DPS.
Shamans and BL get boned by chanter haste, and that's good, but chanter slows should get shamed by a shaman's.
If shamans are within 10% of bards and chanters for slows everyone will want a druid over a shaman any day. That's the biggest balance issue I see.
I still want an admin/staff to talk to me about stat clustering. I have a lobie shaman and if he's not gonna get decent buffs till 50+ I'm rolling a druid so I get group regens and ports by then!
Like I said every good group needs a messer, so in order for the game to balanced with chanters/bards and shamans /beast lords the slow table needs to look pretty close to:
Shaman 70%
Enchanter 60%
Beast Lord 50%
Bard 40%
Hybrid spells aren't sposed to be as powerful as caster spells. Since every good XP group needs a mezzer shamans have to have noticibly better slows than chanters and BL's have to be noticably better than bards to be desired, the only reason I don't think they should have better slows than chanters is because they do such great DPS.
Shamans and BL get boned by chanter haste, and that's good, but chanter slows should get shamed by a shaman's.
If shamans are within 10% of bards and chanters for slows everyone will want a druid over a shaman any day. That's the biggest balance issue I see.
I still want an admin/staff to talk to me about stat clustering. I have a lobie shaman and if he's not gonna get decent buffs till 50+ I'm rolling a druid so I get group regens and ports by then!
Even if every group does not need a mezzer (which I agree with, since my perma group doesn't even have a mezzer), he makes a decent point that classes need to have something to make them unique and desireable to a group or raid.
Enchanters bring the best mez, haste, and mana-regen buff.
Bards bring their unique set of songs, and are exceptional with mana-regen.
I'm not even sure why Beastlords have the same Slow % as their "parent class." Paladins don't have the end Cleric spells, nor do Rangers have the end Druid spells. It's just an anomaly because Slow influence was reduced in SoD.
Even if Slow % is not increased for Shamans, *something* needs to be changed so that Shamans are top-notch at some aspect, even if by just 5%.
Shamans may be great healers, but like many have pointed out, you are not going to be viable for some 6-man groups such as Cmal3 because you simply cannot outheal the DPS. They might not even be OK for Cmal2, unless the tanks are AA'd and geared to heaven and back, which means you are all overgeared for the area anyway. It's ironic because in many groups where Shamans DO mainheal, they do so because other classes in the group perform the slow duties instead and can do it just as well as Shamans anyway
Enchanters bring the best mez, haste, and mana-regen buff.
Bards bring their unique set of songs, and are exceptional with mana-regen.
I'm not even sure why Beastlords have the same Slow % as their "parent class." Paladins don't have the end Cleric spells, nor do Rangers have the end Druid spells. It's just an anomaly because Slow influence was reduced in SoD.
Even if Slow % is not increased for Shamans, *something* needs to be changed so that Shamans are top-notch at some aspect, even if by just 5%.
Shamans may be great healers, but like many have pointed out, you are not going to be viable for some 6-man groups such as Cmal3 because you simply cannot outheal the DPS. They might not even be OK for Cmal2, unless the tanks are AA'd and geared to heaven and back, which means you are all overgeared for the area anyway. It's ironic because in many groups where Shamans DO mainheal, they do so because other classes in the group perform the slow duties instead and can do it just as well as Shamans anyway
BarryHalls
Dalayan Beginner
I think slow is the biggest point of contention here, and needs to be the 'one aspect' that is focused on.
I feel that with a chanter/bard in the group one only take a shaman over a druid if the shaman had atleast 10% more slow than the chanter/bard, but if the shaman has more than say....... 20% more then they would be the only slower anyone want and the druid would never see group action. I think 10% is the sweet spot, it's just enough for a druid to make up for with heals and DPS.
I feel that with a chanter/bard in the group one only take a shaman over a druid if the shaman had atleast 10% more slow than the chanter/bard, but if the shaman has more than say....... 20% more then they would be the only slower anyone want and the druid would never see group action. I think 10% is the sweet spot, it's just enough for a druid to make up for with heals and DPS.