He wants monks to strafe back and forth every 5 seconds because why not, it's awesome game design
We All Love Monks, Here
- Thread starter Slaariel
- Start date
He wants monks to strafe back and forth every 5 seconds because why not, it's awesome game design
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
oh noes a monk has to do a new form of sneaky casting.
o the indignity
(guess who has a kid? this guy. ps thats gordon)
Whats that? you want Autofire gone and a button to load the bow and then another button to shoot as well? Sounds like a stupid suggestion to me.
To make a class Dance around a mob while every other class stands still and pushes a button is stupid. High End strats require constant movement, that is understandable, that is end-game. To make me dance around every mob to apply a benefit that isn't great and do mediocre DPS? no. Especially when in the end you try to pretend I'm tankier than all the other DPS.
Either make this a worthwhile reform or just revert back plz. Take the aux bonus away and just give me the weight limit back, thats a better Class defining trait, not to mention the dodge is worthwhile.
If these changes are gonna be centered around making Mnk life stupid then all you are doing is making the game stupid. A wizard sits around nuking, a Rogue backstabs, a ranger auto-fires and nukes, and Tanks/clrs don't even really have to move at all. Why make the 1 class that has NOTHING going for it dance 24/7 on a mob. that's stupid, and you can't justify it.
(Not directed at anyone in particular...) Try to avoid personal attacks, even when you feel like you're being screwed over. It sounds like no one is happy with the changes, and they really shouldn't be left in game. Imo, the primary mistake has been to implement changes without sufficient testing (maybe?) and (more to the point) leave them in place beyond the time it took to establish that they needed tuning. Granted, I'm making the assumption that it's not too difficult to revert the changes.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
monks are swift agile mobile fighters and i dont think having to circle strafe is that bad, although it is annoying it adds a higher skill cap(lol) to the class. Weight limit is awful and the dodge bonus that went with it was very minimal and worse than what the aux bonus gives.
To say monks have nothing going for them is just wrong, the class isnt in a great spot, but it isnt druid/beastlord status
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
Sneaky casting is part of the game because its how the client/old eq works, and its an alright mechanic because you are only expected to use it maybe 5% of the time at most, and doing so can yield benefits for skilled play. A mechanic like that is fun a small part of the time, but would be terribly tedious and unfun if it was needed 100% of the time to be efficient. Ironically, this could prompt an interactive system for monks, where, say, upon striking a mob from the front the monk applies his aux bonus to the mob, and each tic there is a 10% chance for it to fade, forcing the monk to strafe back in front of the mob to quickly re apply it. That would be far more dynamic and give monks the power to actually maintain aux on multiple mobs. That IMO would be far better than forcing monks to strafe back and forth every single tic.
I don't personally think the weight limit was great, but the dodge bonus seemed substantial to me. I don't know the numbers, and I'm sure in part (or maybe mostly) it was other factors, but I remember years ago monks being really legit tanks. They weren't quite on tier with real tanks (mostly just because of lower hp totals), but they could and were used to tank a lot more stuff than I see happening these days.
Monks lost 10% dodge bonus for the weight penalty being lifted. So for me that was like .7% dodge which isn't huge. Monks just lose basically all avoidance in combo system (for me around 35% total avoidance) when you wanted to do dps. I've tanked plenty since combo system was put in. The hardest thing i tanked was rujjik from 60% to dead and he does a lot of spell damage which is rough on a monk tank because of the 2k or so hp difference from real tanks.
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
It's a part of shards of dalaya that gives you 100 percent of being able to continue if you're in the area. Really you're supposed to land on the exact spot as before.
Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Monks are currently better tanks than they have ever been in the entire history of SoD and now I have added a cool thing that functions like Foe Lock where if a Monk is able to punch a mob for 30 seconds without interruption, he will do straight up 10% more damage until the mob dies or he loses focus.
That extra 10% brings Monk dps in line with all other melees (it's not rogue/ranger dps but it is in the bard/bst with pet zone). In laboratory conditions it's now rog/nec < ranger < bard/bst/mnk/wiz/mag and so forth. In different circumstances I'm sure these numbers will be change like if the bst loses his pet or the mob is not undead or if a ranger can't crit or whatever, but that's okay because content is moderately diverse and allows each class its moment sometimes.
I think the aux-bonus thing is being misinterpreted somehow and I don't get it. NO ONE relying on melee damage does great dps from the front of a mob. Of all the classes who rely on melee damage, Monks do the most from the front. Do you understand? They are better tanks than they have ever been, do the most melee damage from the front of the mob compared to other melee classes, and add to aux-tanking in a way unique to Monks. If you, previously, had a situation where you wanted a Monk in front of a mob, you can still do that and the results will be better now by any metric. If you, previously, had a situation where you wanted a Monk behind a mob, you can still do that and the results will be better now by any metric. They will do more damage. They will take less damage. No dps is being 'sacrificed' in any special way UNLESS YOU DECIDE THAT YOU NEED TO MAX DEFENSE / SELF-SUSTAIN (IN THE WAY THAT A WARRIOR MIGHT DECIDE TO USE A SHIELD).
That extra 10% brings Monk dps in line with all other melees (it's not rogue/ranger dps but it is in the bard/bst with pet zone). In laboratory conditions it's now rog/nec < ranger < bard/bst/mnk/wiz/mag and so forth. In different circumstances I'm sure these numbers will be change like if the bst loses his pet or the mob is not undead or if a ranger can't crit or whatever, but that's okay because content is moderately diverse and allows each class its moment sometimes.
I think the aux-bonus thing is being misinterpreted somehow and I don't get it. NO ONE relying on melee damage does great dps from the front of a mob. Of all the classes who rely on melee damage, Monks do the most from the front. Do you understand? They are better tanks than they have ever been, do the most melee damage from the front of the mob compared to other melee classes, and add to aux-tanking in a way unique to Monks. If you, previously, had a situation where you wanted a Monk in front of a mob, you can still do that and the results will be better now by any metric. If you, previously, had a situation where you wanted a Monk behind a mob, you can still do that and the results will be better now by any metric. They will do more damage. They will take less damage. No dps is being 'sacrificed' in any special way UNLESS YOU DECIDE THAT YOU NEED TO MAX DEFENSE / SELF-SUSTAIN (IN THE WAY THAT A WARRIOR MIGHT DECIDE TO USE A SHIELD).
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Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
Also let me talk about the dodge bonus weight penalty thing again. It was a 10% increase in the following manner and these are literally the real numbers. If you had FULL weight penalty, you would dodge 20 out of 100 dodgeable attacks. If you had NO weight penalty, you would dodge 22 out of 100. You can call that a 10% increase (22 = 20 * 1.10), but I suggest that is a dishonest oversell. That is how the code worked.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
First off, thanks for the hard work you are putting into the changes. I'm sure it isn't easy, and doing stuff over the holidays is pretty cool of you.
Secondly, monks seem to think they tank much worse now than before the weight revamp. I never really parse with the monk so idrk with 100% certainty. (It did 'feel' like eldanals mobs beat gegen up quite a bit more after the changes. We had been farming there just before and just after. We have no parse data and very well could have imagined the difference. ) That said, is it really mass illusion or is the dodge formula more complicated than stated because there is a mob level variable that is exponentially factored in somehow to dodge chance? So like, fighting level 65 mobs, things are fairly cut and dry, but fighting level 60 mobs is a much larger dodge decrease chance.
From a curiosity stand point I'm just trying to mentally reconcile the 'reported' results with the math. It really is fairly intriguing!
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Do you?
Your "fix" from almost a month ago was done without enough (any?) testing. You nerfed a lot of items instead of adjusting your formula making everyone really happy. You are clamoring on about how Monks DPS is just fine immediately after you had to fudge the numbers by 10% to maybe get Monks to where they should be. Player feedback has been ignored or cherry picked. Dev posts have been infrequent, not answered questions, or been condescending and snide.
This entirely process has been handled poorly and is off putting to everyone. SoD has enough problems appealing to new players without this kind of crap. Monks lost so much to get an ability that nobody was really asking for and on top of that they have to listen to the dev talk to them like they are a bunch of namby pamby cry babies who do not know anything... are you actively attempting to kill off the already struggling server population?
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
"In laboratory conditions it's now rog/nec < ranger < bard/bst/mnk/wiz/mag and so forth."
lol
I mean really... You can look at that order and tell yourself it's balanced? I'm not sure what type of laboratory conditions you are using here but they don't match up with anything in actual SoD and are also giving results that are super messed up so there might be some reevaluations needed.
lol
I mean really... You can look at that order and tell yourself it's balanced? I'm not sure what type of laboratory conditions you are using here but they don't match up with anything in actual SoD and are also giving results that are super messed up so there might be some reevaluations needed.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
i typed a huge long post but then my phone shut off. The tldr is fine tuning the combo system and making hth scale with str dex along with fixing itemization would have been easier. Ive never understood why there has to be some huge class rework rather than a fine tuning of an existing system
sabuti
Dalayan Elder
because that is way to simple and not complicated enough
AngryCow
Dalayan Elder
This is probably 50% true.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I'd like to see some more actual parses to have a better idea of where things are now, but in general I think Monks should be doing at least as well as bards/BST all the time, and a single target bonus should bring them above those classes. BST/Bard provide huge utility, it would be hard to imagine the aux thing and offtanking is as desirable as bard/bst buffs(both of them are viable offtanks as well).
Of course Wizard and Mages should be above bard/bst too, and wizards are once they have all the tomes, charm, and vah, and magicians are once they get all their class tomes.
Any chance you want to tell us what you consider "Laboratory Settings"? I know, for example, that from T4-T9 Wizards are actually bad dps on anything but the very shortest fights (assuming equal/normal exp/charm/etc). I can only assume BST actually start out strong, but only get worse through tiers, since their pet scales terribly. Mages gain literally like 30-50% extra DPS through all their class tomes. Just making the point that there is no clear, "fair" or accurate way to compare dps classes, since they all scale differently, and reach peaks at different times.
One thing to consider for monks is that H2H weapons need to be tweaked through the tiers, as they really should be the best DPS option unless your weapons are a far higher tier, since you sacrafice so many stats to use them. That change will help BST not be so lackluster as well, but I'm sure people will be skeptical until those changes are actually in game.
Of course Wizard and Mages should be above bard/bst too, and wizards are once they have all the tomes, charm, and vah, and magicians are once they get all their class tomes.
Any chance you want to tell us what you consider "Laboratory Settings"? I know, for example, that from T4-T9 Wizards are actually bad dps on anything but the very shortest fights (assuming equal/normal exp/charm/etc). I can only assume BST actually start out strong, but only get worse through tiers, since their pet scales terribly. Mages gain literally like 30-50% extra DPS through all their class tomes. Just making the point that there is no clear, "fair" or accurate way to compare dps classes, since they all scale differently, and reach peaks at different times.
One thing to consider for monks is that H2H weapons need to be tweaked through the tiers, as they really should be the best DPS option unless your weapons are a far higher tier, since you sacrafice so many stats to use them. That change will help BST not be so lackluster as well, but I'm sure people will be skeptical until those changes are actually in game.
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
he has asked people to dps a mob down as fast as you can to different people who have been online. my bad ranger out dos nwaij!