We All Love Monks, Here

I still haven't even seen a monk ask for dps comparable to a rogue, but it keeps being brought up. Just want to be not completely shit. Monks are just in a really awkward spot right now because the changes that have occured thus far have been very incomplete.
 
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Nebi said:
the problem is that when a ranger tanks his dps goes to shit. the problem i keep seeing with monks is that when they tank they want to be able to do dps as well. Monks need to decide if they want to tank there is a trade off. if they want to dps then they tank like a wet paper.
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If only there were some existing game mechanic to facilitate this. Like if a monk could... could change their battle posture relatively at will. Be able to fluidly dodge attacks from the front, be fleet pullers riding an elusive zephyr, go into a fiery rage of damage, or be as immune to damage as a stone. Maybe a resource bar could limit the use of some of these postures for the sake of balance. If only.

Nah, screw all that. As Susvain pointed out pretty much every single player suggestion for monks has been ignored. Nobody will be willing to throw away the "work" that went into this change. Things will get halfheartedly tweaked until people get tired of complaining enough to either stomach the shadow of the character they have put hundreds of hours into OR focus on another character OR just quit playing this game altogether. Once the complaining stops the issue will be deemed fixed. Every other class will quietly pray they do not receive a patch and the PAD forum will continue to fill up with good ideas that go nowhere.
 
Pecannius said:
More testing done on http://shardsofdalaya.com/fomelo/fomelo.php?char=messerschmitt
blacktongue gloves, 20H2h total on same mob
OLD PARSES, using round kick combos, barefist, aggressive

Average: 612 DPS
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Post 1st round monk changes (aggressive, spamming flying kick) with focus, shaman stats

Average: 348 DPS
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Post 2nd round monk changes (aggressive, spamming flying kick) with focus, shaman stats

Average: 408 DPS
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Good info, thanks. I'm still puzzled as to why the numbers are so lop-sided but this gives me good info to work with. It may simply be an issue of accuracy loss but I'm still surprised that damage could have dropped this much with FKs hitting for 1400+ total. Bare-fist damage WILL be a bit lower than pre-change (because +H2H mod no longer adds flat damage, which was a bad idea no matter what anyone says) but the intent is for most of that damage to be relocated into empowered FK. And since empowered FK doesn't miss, it's not affected by the accuracy loss... well you can see what I'm saying. I will tweak with the accuracy deal and see what happens.

Thanks again for your input.
 
you're welcome monks...

<Deein> slaariel
<Deein> your monk change made me lose a cleric
<slaariel> which cleric
<slaariel> also i'm not done w/ monks yet
<Deein> susvaine
<Deein> what do you have to say about this
<Deein> you're in front of the rest of the guild right now and we have stones in hand
 
Slaariel said:
Good info, thanks. I'm still puzzled as to why the numbers are so lop-sided but this gives me good info to work with. It may simply be an issue of accuracy loss but I'm still surprised that damage could have dropped this much with FKs hitting for 1400+ total. Bare-fist damage WILL be a bit lower than pre-change (because +H2H mod no longer adds flat damage, which was a bad idea no matter what anyone says) but the intent is for most of that damage to be relocated into empowered FK. And since empowered FK doesn't miss, it's not affected by the accuracy loss... well you can see what I'm saying. I will tweak with the accuracy deal and see what happens.

Thanks again for your input.
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Okay well your last post said "On hand-to-hand alone, there is no way a T13 Monk does less punch damage now than before" so this is a bit of a 180.

My dps combo nuke hit for 1900-2000 and it could crit, plus increased melee accuracy and more procs as a result. Compared to the empowered kick numbers, everything is lower across the board so I don't see why any of this is a surprise.
 
With a minor change to accuracy (and I mean MINOR) with Messerschmidt's gear and AA with FoB 1 complete I am parsing about 520 dps tanking and 700 dps from behind the mob. With FoB 4 complete, the numbers are incredible (to be expected when avg FK is 1900 and top FK is like 3500 net dmg). I invite anyone to come test (this is vs a level 65 mob).

Edited to clarify: I think these DPS numbers are appropriate and even "good" given the info posted in this thread.
 
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Slaariel said:
but the intent is for most of that damage to be relocated into empowered FK.
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Why? FK still scales worse than the old combo sys:
1. non melee damage is not affected by damage inc, crits so fresh 65s are hitting for as much as without any dmg inc focus or crit tomes/gear
2. you're bracketing every monk T1-T10 with access to FoB 1 and 2, from those with access to FoB 3 and 4. By the way it seems even the active monks on the server have yet to complete FoB 3 or 4.

Also please clarify if str and dex tomes are any use with the new dex/str ratio system. The tomes were supposed to increase the hidden cap, but it is unclear if the "hidden cap" is even an issue if it is only pure dex/str numbers contributing to ratio.
 
Some monks have 3/4, others don't. I've had 4 banked for 2 years at this point and I think Sabuti and Lowako are just missing 3 as well. If the class tome is going to be so pivotal for monks (it shouldn't be, IMO), it would be great to finally reimplement the tome NPC so monks don't get RNG-screwed out of hundreds of dps.
 
Reworking force of body to allow monks to flurry 2/4/6/8% of the time while using bare fist is probably the best scaling option that would be the easiest to balance. If a full flurry is too strong, then change it to X number of extra attacks, or reduce the chance of flurry etc.
 
Okay pretend I posted the exact same post except I didn't mention FoB in it at all since that was merely an aside. Imagine the post reads:

With a minor change to accuracy (and I mean MINOR) with Messerschmidt's gear, AA, and tomes I am parsing about 520 dps tanking and 700 dps from behind the mob. I invite anyone to come test (this is vs a level 65 mob).

Edited to clarify: I think these DPS numbers are appropriate and even "good" given the info posted in this thread.
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Once that is digested, we can talk about FoB separately, since I agree it is in a weird place.

I like the idea of FoB doing something else since as it sits it puts way too much focus on FK and honestly the numbers are ridiculous. Maybe a small bonus mod to all special moves instead of tripling FK damage or as Tevinter suggested a chance to flurry (or maybe 2 effects, one for s 2 one for s 3?). I'm sure there are some good ideas out there.
 
Slaar, The system really is growing, but I feel theres a few things needed to be addressed for the mnk changes to make sense.
  1. a different stance for S2. S3 is fine for your wishes, more avoidance lost attack speed. I would prefer 2 completely new stances with different effects for several different reasons. 1 uniqueness, and 2 the stances have double drawbacks. S2, Atk Speed at the loss of avoidance. Auxing in this is like the mob calling u stupid. The atk speed increases Ripo cause the mnk is attacking more, and the avoidance loss causes u to get hit by those Ripos more. Why not simply S3? well we cant DPS in s3. we lose FK and atk speed. and with DPS being so bad in teh front as it was when I parsed with u, thats the worst Idea for a DPS. This brings us to S3. okay, for tanking/minimizing Dmg done to you its great, but the DPS loss is killer on us when you have nerfed our DPS pretty hard so far. In s3 we lose atk speed, gain avoidance. we only have access to lifetap which does about 250 dmg. the DPS in that stance is terrible. A new stance for S3 is not necessarily needed, but for S2 I feel its a must. S2 makes auxing bonus look stupid, and to not DPS in s3 just to aux is like telling mnks you are not dps.
  2. Dps in-front of a mob is pretty bad. 700 behind 473-484 in front. Thats terrible. For the dmg I take trying to aux in a raid that DPS ain't worth it. If you want Mnks to actually aux u gotta give us more than auxing bonus at the cost of DPS and healer mana. Maybe the new s2 is you ignore a %age of AC/defensive skills (Ripo/Dodge/etc.) while in front. If you tell us we are a DPS class, and we need to aux, then you need to give us the ability to do that.
  3. Ethereal Stance needs a CD adjustment.
  4. Mnk fist ratio needs a bump. pre-nerf mnk fist dmg was a bit...immense. 18/18 + 6= 18 delay 24 dmg. Too much imo. But atm from the info you you tell, 26/23 + 6 = 26/29 delay to dmg. That is a ~1.1 ratio. That is a terrible incentive to go bare-fist. I lose Hp/AC/Stats/resist/good procs/frontal bonus to dodge/etc. to go bare-fist. The ratio at least needs to be a little more worthwhile. A T11 mnk with gloves doe the same DPS with fist as he does with weapons. Its like 2hand bunt all over again from before. No reason to use it. Less stats and worse or barely on par dmg! I'd rather use the weapons and get all my bonuses than go bare-fist. The scaling might be better for lowbies, but when they reach T11-13 its gonna be meh! Horoks is ~1.1 and goes to like ~ 1.2 with magic dmg. Thats a main hand. Get another on-par wep and you have better than fist. If you're goal is for mnks not to go bare-fist then I would say you have achieved it. Anyways that is all I have to say on that.
  5. 2hb incentive plz. more stam regen, more dmg, or idk just something. It honestly is the best way to aux, slower than 1handers, and if it was on-par with their DPS or a tad more it would be worthwhile, but 2 weps with 1.1 ratios VS a 1.85 (Spires Tower of Deathly Cold) is more than likely NOT gonna be the same DPS. IF I am thinking this through Correctly, 2 hands with 1.1 ratio = 2.2 ratio each 1 attacking on its own timer VS a single hand 1.85 ratio triple attacking. Obviously the DPS for 2handers needs a boost cause unless you get a double Ratio (Hello T13 Spine of Entropy) 2hander by my own thoughts it can't compare.
Yes, a lot to type, a lot to say, and a lot of talk about these changes aren't right. Maybe if FoB does something different it will compensate some of it. The main ones I feel that need work are the Stances and Frontal DPS. Mnks belong in the front,
Monks are duellists chiefly. They can fight in group situations, but the classic Wuxia scenario is monk vs. monk.
  • Likewise, retribution attacks like Riposte and Rampage are supremely predictable to a trained Monk. There's no reason to park behind a giant Dragon if you already know what they are going to do. Monks get a bonus to dodging targets face-to-face and a bonus to aux-tanking.
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You said these things and I agree, Mnks should NOT be behind. Why park behind if you alrdy know what its gonna do? Mnks fight from the front! So why DPS behind? We should definitely be DPSing in the front for the aux benefits. Should we just ignore all defenses? I don't think that is a good idea. I feel mnk aux is worthless if you are dealing 200 DPS less and then compared to other DPS classes who do 800-1k DPS (Bst are exempt I admit but they bring cunning and SV with them) A mnk is dealing Half DPS! Tanks deal 500+ DPS in the front! I have seen parses where a warrior was doing 600 DPS from the front and SK nukes make them DPS easier from the front, and im pretty sure I have seen them do 500+ from the front. You are making Mnks do Tank DPS from the front but without being a tank. Make them do 600ish+ DPS from the front (I am of course meaning at T11+). imagine farming in s3...500 DPS in s2 but S3 I can't even flying kick for dmg and I lose atk speed....DPS would probably be 300-400. I would be better off rolling a warrior and taking LESS dmg and dishing out MORE DPS. Anyways, that is my 2 cents.
 
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Dinadass said:
Some monks have 3/4, others don't. I've had 4 banked for 2 years at this point and I think Sabuti and Lowako are just missing 3 as well. If the class tome is going to be so pivotal for monks (it shouldn't be, IMO), it would be great to finally reimplement the tome NPC so monks don't get RNG-screwed out of hundreds of dps.
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that
 
2hb is the best weapon type to use when whirlwinding because of whirlwind using mainhand only (Also of course the spires 2hb wont outparse 1handers with 1.1 ratios because anything with a 1.1 ratio is from a way harder mob, not sure if you realize that). You can remain behind a mob for a majority of the time while still auxing but its just annoying to do. Also as for the point about warrior doing more DPS than monk warrior DPS is pretty dependent on them tanking and riposting the mob with scythe. Fist are still being tuned and the pair of gloves i use are still undertuned so i dont have much worthwhile data to compare vs my weapons
 
I agree Tev, and everything I say I leave open to ALL opinions. I don't pretend or think I know every aspect. For the Tower of deathly Cold, to get there U gotta kill Animation, in yclist, the fist from him is a 1.0 or something with magic, and then experiment, which we all know is 1 mob behind experiment in Spires, is the fist of twisted magics, a 1.05 ratio, at which point you have 2 1handers better than the 2hander. Now, The tower does make a good AE aggro. I admit that, but it would seem to me a good idea to increase the usefulness of 2hb as unless u are AE tanking, you don't want a 2hb. If everyone else is fine for 2hb being left at this, Okay. Leave it at that.

In my list of things needed addressed I find only 2 actually imperative. Others are okay, that would be nice but not a must. The two I feel that are important are Front-DPS and Stances. S2 and S3 I feel are too, clunky/normal for this setup. A permanent DPS stance that allows the mnk to avoid say, 10% Ac and maybe a 5% chance to ignore a defensive ability is a far better for the mnks job. (again like usual Numbers are not my strong area.) Also, since accuracy bonus seems important, according to all parses/1st hand accounts, maybe toss a small accuracy bonus into the stance. Accuracy can be tossed into FK instead, but FK has so much on it now that it kinda makes kick and round kick look bad if you do that. You all notice I didn't mention a drawback to the stance and that is how it should be. A warrior gets a single stance, no drawbacks for pure mitigation. To me, that is PERFECT. Pure Melees should get permanent stances with no drawback they spend all their time fixing their stances! they don't learn heal, swarms, slows, buffs, and all that nonsense! They learn to hit! Give Rogues a permanent 5% or more increase to melee dmg for a permanent stance! They deserve such things cause they have less utility than a mnk.

Anyways, I know I post these HUGE paragraphs and my grammar is crazy terrible, and I keep on asking for new stances. I know it has to be annoying, but I can't help but look at what a Mnk is suppose to be and currently is and feel that it just doesn't fit. We have established that Mnks are suppose to aux, and many just say circle the mob, but I feel and have always felt from first reading this thread that the Mnk is in the front. He belongs there, he is the rock, the calm and disciplined warrior that cares not for the mountain for he can climb it, and the fire is nothing to him for his mind is stronger. Auxing is what Mnks are now suppose to do. So, let them do it. Let them DPS from the front with minimal dmg compared to other DPS. SKs and Pallies can self heal, warriors dodge and lifetap on-hit and take less dmg. Mnks just aren't there when the punch comes. Anyways, that is again my 2 cents (I got a lot of cents!).
 
It's a little more tedious to parse for accuracy since I have to find parses where I'm in the same stance the whole time. But from what I can tell, the loss of FKx3 combo is about 10% accuracy. So accounting for this loss might need more than a minor tweak? Also including parses using divine grace because I miss it so much.

PRE monk patch
Stance: Divine grace
Fk x3 combo up most of the time
1506 hits
208 misses
= 87.9% accuracy

Stance: aggressive
FK x 3 combo up most of the time:
1396 hits
516 misses
= 73% accuracy

PATCH 1
Stance: aggressive
1918 hits
1095 misses
= 63% accuracy

Patch 2
1778 hits
1066 misses
= 62.5% accuracy
 
Yeah the accuracy from s15 easily beat out the haste from s2 against almost any target, not to mention it being the best offtank/ramptank/etc stance at the same time.
 
Dinadass said:
Yeah the accuracy from s15 easily beat out the haste from s2 against almost any target, not to mention it being the best offtank/ramptank/etc stance at the same time.
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Yea, I mean to talk more about s15 in my last post . Imo using stamina for kicks is silly, you just always spam it regardless (unless you're waiting for curses/vah back or something). It makes much more sense to have sta used by monks the way it used to be with the old stances, particularly s15. While s15 is running monks can be aux machines and still do really good dps. When their sta is depleted then they have to make the choice between continuing to use their aux ability attacking from the front or attack from the back with s2 for more dps. My 2cp.
 
Slaariel said:
I'm still puzzled...
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Since Discipline is pointless, clearly ideas are not translating into the game properly, dps isn't where it should be, it turns out monks really used some of those stances they lost, scaling appears to still be an issue, messing ethereal up was just insanity, too much emphasis is being placed on tomes to fix the fix, and there are several other little things that do no compute maybe maybe maybe it is time to revert monks then go back to the drawing board with player input and feedback on the front end instead of scrambling to polish a turd after the fact.
 
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