Warriors the defunct SOD class

I think the problem lies in the incentive for guilds to regear particular classes.

Warriors are at the very bottom of this list, and by a considerable margin compared to the next class. Paladins and SK's are also quite incredibly low on this list. This is something you just have to deal with.


I have been told I'd never get shit on my pally, and that he wasn't going to make it. He just wasn't needed on raids by any of the guilds I was interested in joining. Every guild turned me down. I waited for an opportunity, and in the meantime I played other characters, but I still improved my pally at the fastest rate I could. An opportunity arose, and I took it.

On another note, once you get a spot as a tank for a guild, you get a lot of benefits.
-People will bot your toon and help you xp.
-You get a more than fair distribution of loot.
-You are coveted for groups within your guild.
-Job security, son. It is hard for your guild to replace you (although you are an asshole if you abuse this).

So, I wouldnt say they are the defunct class. They are a great class, they are just hard to replace. It just takes patience.

Warriors can do what most people do and join a newly formed guild and ride it out with them. If they fail, join another, and continue on. You could even start your own guild, like I did when I was new to this server.
 
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Noktar said:
well you could say that a raid only wants 1 enchanter aswell and 1 shd and more the thing is with all the other classes guilds will easier recruit a new one when there old one stops playing then with a warrior. This is ofcourse that a new enchanter would not put back a guild much if at all while if you take a new Main Tank (warrior) you would likely drop a few tiers. This is why you see old warriors being reused over and over.
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I'm going to skip the reading of the 2 pages of new posts today just to respond to this.

This is exactly true. While only a single character of certain classes may be needed in raids, if they decide to stop playing it is usually fairly easy to get another recruit up to speed to replace them. A few relics, finishing archaic, a couple pieces of gear put them in a suitable level to fill the gap going from base level 65 no raiding to being marginally acceptable in a moderate raid guild.
This is definitely not true for warriors as you agreed, but just because everyone knows why this is and is in perfect understanding doesn't mean this is a great way to have a game operate.
 
OP seems to be confusing "replacing MTs in current guilds is near impossible as a new warrior" with "warriors are useless".

The two are not the same thing, regardless of what you think. No, changing your class is out of the question. If you are unhappy with your toon, play something else. If you were looking to solo, warrior was not the choice for you. Does that make it useless? No. It means you picked the wrong class for what you wanted to do. Rogues cant solo either, but they were never designed to, and yet, I don't think I have ever seen a rogue post about their lack of solo abilities.

Long story short: The staff will not be changing the game around because you cant replace an MT in an established guild. We dont alter the game to suit your vision of it.

*Edit* 4 pieces of DM plate is not "mostly" DM plate, and does not cost 30k. If you are going to make assertions, be sure they are credible. Also how does a warrior with ~120 total aas that has all 3 ranks of innate metabolism have any room to complain about his abilities? You havent even seen them yet.

It's apparent why you didnt bother posting your character after 3 pages, as looking at it completely shot your arguments to hell. So you are either A. Trolling or B. Unfamiliar with SoD and how things work *here*
 
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I agree with Iaeolan's last post.

No, I'm not confusing the two, I assure you!

I count 5 pieces incidentally. More DM than anything else=mostly DM. I didn't post a link because I wanted to make a general point. Which I made. Getting the character another 150AA & more DM plate will not change the premise of this argument. And (with the highest respect) picking on the specifics of the character only highlights the lack of a response to the earliest points and topic posts.

EDIT: I wasn't suggesting that a warrior in DM plate & 100AAs should replace Grimar. I'm sure you credit me with more intelligence than that!
EDIT2: I'm done with this post, point made. I'm glad it caught some air. But a few people are seeing this as moan which I don't want.
 
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Man exodus has warrior love, we used to rock two warriors. Budrick is #1 shield master.
 
stope21 said:
I think the problem lies in the incentive for guilds to regear particular classes.

Warriors are at the very bottom of this list, and by a considerable margin compared to the next class. Paladins and SK's are also quite incredibly low on this list. This is something you just have to deal with.
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Bingo.

Not to mention if you don't have a good tank it can be very difficult to regear any tank class. When I first joined Fusion I only had deepmetal armor, Kazimir was MIA, and Bounta was the only tank available. Granted Bounta is a good player, we still had trouble on encounters that should have otherwise been trivial considering the gear of the support and dps classes.
 
Although there may be some weight to the statement that some guilds would rather bot a warrior that has a lot of time and plat invested in it than pick up an under geared and AAed toon, it is quite logical to do so. The warrior's ability to hold agro and take a beating is his reason for being. A guild can not continue to raid at a high tier if the anchor of their force is not of a similar tier. Warriors may be hindered more than other classes in joining a higher tiered guild by this factor but it certainly does not make them useless as a class.

SyncMizer said:
And (with respect) picking on the specifics of the character only highlights the lack of a credible response to the earliest points and topic posts.
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Actually, the fact that you have so few of the crucial AAs and most of your gear is bought or tmap (no raid gear), you haven't done the main quest, picked a faction quest stream or diety quest to do clearly illustrates that maybe you have not put enough time into the character to speak knowledgably on the subject or perhaps it just shows you are too lazy to invest the time to get where you want to go. You obviously want to raid the higher tiers but do not want to put the time in to get what is needed for a class that is in limited demand due to most guilds using only 1 warrior coupled with a few guilds grandfathering old characters.

I seems that healers are always in demand. Perhaps playing your cleric will bring you more satisfaction in the end. Not everyone has the time or inclination to raid the top half of the game. Warriors that have made it there have done so through effort and perseverance.
 
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SyncMizer said:
You'd be better at picking apart knitting than arguments I suspect!
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It's been more than just me. I see the methodology though- don't actually rebut, just tell everyone your point is made and their arguments are weak.

Make a legitimate suggestion regarding the mending of raiding warrior woes (I would first suggest reworking your argument based on the significant feedback provided by raiding warriors and others) other than changing the nature of the class entirely to suit the fact that you rolled a class you don't want to play or be done with it and let it die.
 
Good post Malleus2. Yes those are all indications of a lack of time investment in the warrior. The Cleric really became my main and has had more time investment. But as I said at the start of all this, not really through choice, just through server need. My posts have been an attempt to draw attention to a point made very well by a I think 3 or 4 contributors concerning warriors in general. I have tried to keep from posting specific character information, (wasn't there something in the sticky about keeping character specific stuff out of S&R?)

No offense Tyvec-a-tron. I'm an easy going person, so none meant. Without scanning the whole thread, weren't your points addressed earlier by somebody as regards guilds and upgrades? (Something like -There are not the guilds-it would mean forming a new one & well I sure charm upgrade would help, but it links back to my response to Malleus)
 
SyncMizer said:
I have tried to keep from posting specific character information
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Your lack of specifics has done little but divert attention away from the fact that you're not experienced enough to make many of the assertions that you're making. There ARE problems with the class and its orientation in the raid game. This is influenced heavily by perception and not entirely by game mechanics. Your suggestion to reorient them by giving them a DPS component, regardless of whether or not they maintain their present abilities, would require a massive reworking and rebalancing. It's also overkill, as the class is fully functional and serves its purpose in the game, as many can and have attested to. If you have a feasible suggestion, continue with that instead. If you have abandoned your original concept, and want this thread to serve as a round table for warrior, that's fine too. Just don't go around telling everyone that warriors are a broken and defunct class; too many know otherwise.
 
Lot of discussion about warriors lately. I'd pay dearly to know what's in the works ! anyway this thread is bringing the point of warriors not wanted in guilds, not much can change about this (making quitting warriors not leave their toon to the guild as a legacy might sound fun, but not when a charm from Juggo to Supreme has been paid with the help of the whole guild).

The Dps point from Zaela is to be considered. A warrior is a Weapon Master. Why is it unthinkable that he does as much damage as a ranger with the same 2H ? or even with two weapons ? provided he never does the same with a bow, that he doesn't ever get backstab, and somehow doesn't indeed get close to monks which I agree are well where they should. Warriors get crippling strike, double (triple?) attack, even a flurry of attack that could as well be worth something more than just building aggro.
I would see them a little above beastlords and paladins personally - I don't believe non-dual wielders should be more damage as an equivalent standard melee class, if not with 2Hers.

Maybe a way to fix this would be the use of stances. There's this stance Frenzied Attack, where you get +haste but lose all defensive aspects. I'm wondering how often warriors use this even in group, specially considering the high consuption rate of stamina, as it turns the warrior into a dull DPS class for a low amount of time.
Why not turning this as /S 12 for offense ? precisely,
Gladiator's Stance
- increasing by a fair margin DPS (haste),
- lowering the defensive skills and lose shield block that wouldn't be needed in such a situation anyway,
- making it either non-draining style (like /S 12) or low-sta consuming like the /S 4 of bards.
- that maybe more argueable, but removing the "+aggro when swinging" ability of warriors so they don't pull aggro too easily (while still retaining foelock) - after all they would still have to deal with taking aggro, having no jolt ability like beastlords. This could translate by a minus aggro compareable to what Advanced Anatomy gives but it's just an idea.

This also might help using some weapons that have warriors on it but don't really get used by this class long, because they're more DPS than aggro oriented through their procs : Stormrazor, LT fire weapons, Frost lightsaber, UT shanker (missing a ton on the way). After all they get probably the biggest versatillity in weapons useable, it's currently working against them - let it work for them !
 
Making warriors more powerful would be kind of imbalancing to me.

Like I said before, the problem with them is not their power, but their interaction level and low incentive to be replaced.

Two warriors on a raid is pretty nuts, especially when you have one warrior sheild another. They are basically just a slab of concrete at that point, and the aux tanking of the 2nd warrior is REALLY high b/c he has a shield in as well. Furthermore, if one warrior dies, the other just area taunts, hits resilience, and keeps his shield in for the rest of the fight for a perfectly seemless transition to the new tank. Not only that, but on fights where you need a knight tank, both warriors could shield the knight for again some pretty crazy tanking/aux tanking going on. There are benefits to running 2 warriors.


Zaela said:
edit: I just want to note that I just now parsed a highly-AA'd Warrior against a Ranger with equivalent level gear, both using the same 2HB against the same mob from behind, and the Warrior did 84% of the Ranger's melee DPS. The Warrior's DPS was a fair bit lower using 2 equivalent-level 1handers, though. I wouldn't be against a slight extra bonus for Warriors using 2hand weapons, as long as it was still harder to get aggro than with 1handers, although they still shouldn't be better DPS than monks and rangers.
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Which stances were you using?

When you said a fair bit lower when "using 2 equivalent-level 1handers" were both classes using the same weapons? Or is this just a comparison of 1hers to 2hers?

84% of a rangers dps 2her to 2her seems more than fair to me.
 
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As a warrior coming up to replace a warrior that has gone inactive (at least for raiding purposes), I can say with confidence that it is fairly easy to get a warrior caught up to the rest of the raid.

You can check out the fomelo:
Ardenn
That is a toon that was a level 62 with 0 AAs and no raid gear just under two months ago.

Obviously there are some holes here - faction quest, AAs, charm, neck - but for where Numinous is on the totem pole of raiding guilds, Ardenn is coming into place. Two months is not a terribly long time, and we didn't have to sacrifice any of our raiding potential. In fact, we progressed a lot while this shift was taking place. Any guild on this server could do the same thing in the same amount of time - shorter, even, by either starting with a better foundation of a warrior or by putting an even higher priority than we did on putting gear on the toon and botting it for experience. The sticking point which is the main reason for recycling tanks on SoD is charms.

Charms, while an excellent way to advance characters and take money out of the economy, basically freeze a guild's tank into place as soon as the money gets put down for an eternal or a supreme. This is a problem with the game's mechanics. If that warrior ever quits its a bot forever. Guilds do not earn money fast enough to go out and buy a second Supreme charm even after a year of content. Plenty of them can't even buy one. There is no way for a guild to take that investment back from a warrior and somehow put it on a new one. Something could be dreamed up, some sort of new Warrior-only charm, in-line with the existing charms based on progression through raiding (but slightly worse than purchased charms) that are very difficult for guilds to obtain, but either movable from one warrior to the next, or possible to get again without the same degree of difficulty as obtaining 500k-1.2mil plat. Either that, or guild simply need a way to take back a charm from a warrior they bought it for. I know the reasons why charms no longer give plat refunds, but the warrior class is doomed to recycling as long as their respective guilds exist as long as the eternals and supremes stay stuck to those characters with no alternative. Fortunately, the highest Numinous got to with Kharras was a Juggo before he quit.

Of course, I can name one guild that insisted on using a botted tank even before they bought it an Eternal, which is Bane. To this I can only scratch my head and think "Why the fuck?"

Closing thoughts would be that if you really want to be a warrior in SoD endgame, have patience. Warrior started out as my intended main, but it took me about 9 months of playing cleric for the opportunity to finally come up. If you really want it to happen, eventually it will, but expect to make some sacrifices.
 
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Severien said:
As a warrior coming up to replace a warrior that has gone inactive (at least for raiding purposes), I can say with confidence that it is fairly easy to get a warrior caught up to the rest of the raid.
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You had a guild to backfarm for you. He is an unguilded low end warrior... The two aren't even remotely comparable.

I can speak from experience just how frustrating it is to main an under geared, unguilded, lowbie warrior starting from scratch, without the ability to box. It sucks. I would probably rather fry my dick in STD flavored grease or have unprotected sex with Paris Hilton than go through mind numbing hours of sitting in Athica lfg and begging for buffs again.

There's a combination of three things you can do:

1.) Be patient.
2.) Farm. Hard.
3.) Make your own guild.

Good luck.
 
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