Very Difficult Tmap tuning

[Hasrett]

First, to explain the situation:

Last night I joined some folks from the open raid (mostly Venerate) in doing a VD map. Jose was tanking, Stever offtanking, with Gtoo and a couple of other clerics, a druid, and Hasrett there for heals. I believe we had 16 people total (might have been 15), all but one level 65, including some steel and three forsaken (Ponden being the third). In other words, it was a pretty effective group, and much the same as the one that took down Seductress and a couple other mobs earlier in the day.

We went through about half a dozen or so waves without a hitch (note: I count killing the bard as a perk, not a hitch). Then the chest spawned. With it were at least 7 shadelords and 2 doggies. They dropped Jose in like... no time flat, and we wiped.

To make a long story short, the monk was unable to get away from the 7 linked caster mobs in order to use a rez pot on one of the clerics, and by the time we got a rezer back into the zone, got everyone clicked, and rebuffed, the chest had about 6 or 7 minutes left on it. We engaged and won (had two perks that time, killed the wizard AND the bard iirc), but by that time the chest had poofed.

So, now that the background is out of the way... my issue:

IMO the chest's lifespan for the more difficult maps should be increased. With a 30-minute timer and a set of guardians that take 5-10 mins per kill (we took about 7-8), that leaves almost no time for recovery in the event of a wipe. Could the wipe have been avoided? Sure, since we were able to kill them the second time around. That seems to be fairly irrelevant, though. A lot of maps are in out of the way places. What happens if you wipe on a VD map in one of the ocean zones and don't have a porter to get back? You lose the chest, period. In short, I think the lifespan of a treasure chest should scale with the difficulty of the map. Use the current 30 minutes as a base line for Simple, VE and E maps, then increase it from Moderate on up. I've got no problem with having a finite number of tries, so you can't just engage and kill one of the guardians, wipe, and do it again until you finally clear them all 2 hours later. But 30 minutes is just too limiting.


I was also going to argue that the loot from VD maps is weak relative to the difficulty, but last night we did it without much crowd control. CC would have made it quite a bit easier, I'm sure, so I'm going to withhold judgment on the risk vs. reward until I can better evaluate it. If someone else who was there last night wants to make that point, you're welcome to.

 

[Wiz]

The only real chance of failure on maps comes from the 30 minute depop, so no, I don't think it should be reduced.

 

[Hasrett]

Fair enough. I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not going to push it, but I will make one other suggestion: make it so there's a little leeway for one wipe in some of the harder to reach zones. It'll still be no more than 2 wipes in easier to reach zones, given how long it takes to recover (unless you wipe so fast that there's no way you could finish the map anyway). Up it to, I dunno, 45 minutes or something.

To offset that and make it so you can't just nickel and dime your way through the guardians over the course of several wipes, make it so that after the guardians go X amount of time with no one on their hate list, any that you've killed so far will repop, so you basically have to start from scratch. The time should be fairly short so that it's not abusable by a monk with FD (maybe there's even a better way to get around that).

 

[TapeinV]

The only real chance of failure on maps comes from the 30 minute depop, so no, I don't think it should be reduced.

I don't know, VD maps are a hassle to do as it is, especially most of the time when they're in retarded zones like Western Wastes, Darkwoods, etc. where you're constantly getting agro. If you really look at the level that VD maps were designed for, then whether or not they wipe depends on luck when the chest pops. In my eyes, it's kind of ridiculous that we can go from 4manning a difficult (Jose, Junius, Gtoo, Tapein) to wiping to seven shadelords and two dogs with 16 in a matter of seconds on a VD.

If the depop timer was only increased something like five minutes per difficulty, it would still make a world of difference, or even less then that. Had the depop timer been forty-five minutes, we would've been okay. It took Sstecik several minutes to get the corpses out of agro range, Zatsu ported back and ran as fast as he could through South Waste/Oasis/North Waste, and then Gtoo clicked corpses with a lifeward as quickly as he possibly can. I'm still unsure as to what we could've done.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

A lot of maps are in out of the way places. What happens if you wipe on a VD map in one of the ocean zones and don't have a porter to get back?

Have the raid bind close by. Both ocean zones are bindable. I can't think of any zones tmaps take you to that aren't close enough to a bindable zone to run back to by the time Death Fatigue has faded. Also, don't rez before reengaging; buff, kill, rez later.

 

[Thinkmeats]

I don't know, VD maps are a hassle to do as it is, especially most of the time when they're in retarded zones like Western Wastes, Darkwoods, etc. where you're constantly getting agro. If you really look at the level that VD maps were designed for, then whether or not they wipe depends on luck when the chest pops. In my eyes, it's kind of ridiculous that we can go from 4manning a difficult (Jose, Junius, Gtoo, Tapein) to wiping to seven shadelords and two dogs with 16 in a matter of seconds on a VD.

If you're doing it right, you wouldn't have wiped, and no I'm not going to explain what 'doing it right' means. From what you're describing, the tmap worked correctly; you ended up failing, but them's the breaks. With a better strategy, you'd have done fine.

Also Darkwoods and especially WW maps are easier than normal maps if only because of the availability of great charm mobs to use as expendable no-heals-needed offtanks. DW you sometimes get adds, but WW doesn't even have that--it's just plain out better if you do it right.

 

[robopirateninja]

Have the raid bind close by. Both ocean zones are bindable. I can't think of any zones tmaps take you to that aren't close enough to a bindable zone to run back to by the time Death Fatigue has faded. Also, don't rez before reengaging; buff, kill, rez later

Depending on your connection, rezzing your party will be MUCH faster than having them zone three or four times and run all over.

Personally I crash zoning about 50% of the time, and I zone so slowly that when running places like HHK, I'll be in that damn tunnel in ebad when the rest of my party reaches the courtyard.

Tape: He acknowledged that they failed, he's asking for more leeway in the event of a failure. If it takes you 30 minutes to kill a wave without a wipe, you're probably fucking up too hard to deserve the loot. However if the wiz opinion is that a single wipe should equal failure/loss of the map then them's the breaks.

 

[TapeinV]

If you're doing it right, you wouldn't have wiped, and no I'm not going to explain what 'doing it right' means. From what you're describing, the tmap worked correctly; you ended up failing, but them's the breaks. With a better strategy, you'd have done fine.

Also Darkwoods and especially WW maps are easier than normal maps if only because of the availability of great charm mobs to use as expendable no-heals-needed offtanks. DW you sometimes get adds, but WW doesn't even have that--it's just plain out better if you do it right.

Yeah, like Tyrone said, I'm acknowledging that we did wipe/obviously didn't do something right to begin with (well, we had like ten seconds, splat). We're just looking for a tad bit more leeway here in the event of a failure/wipe. VD's take roughly an hour or longer to do, considering how long it takes to kill each wave, med, and the number of waves. We were on the very last mob when the chest poofed. Sucks, but shit happens and yeah, all I'm looking for is just a little bit more time added in.

 

[Hasrett]

However if the wiz opinion is that a single wipe should equal failure/loss of the map then them's the breaks.

This pretty much sums it up.

If one wipe should sometimes mean loss, then things are appropriate as-is. If you should have a second shot at it, the current time limit is too short.

And having the entire raid bind nearby is kind of excessive for what should be about a 1-hour event, but I guess if it's what we need to do next time, we'll do it.