Trolls and OGRES! Currently a big problem with them.

M

Mirp

Dalayan Beginner
Ok, I read a little bit of these forums, but I hope I am not repeating what someone else has said. So let me explain...

I recently created a character, a troll shaman to be exact. The first 10 levels or so seemed to be okay, nothing noticible yet. Currently I am level 16 and struggling along. I don't know if this is intentional or not, but a trolls base starting charisma is 45. I know the starting stats come directly from live where not all stats effect each race. Trolls and ogres start with horribly low charisma, I think the reason for them starting with such low base charisma is the fact that no class combination with ogre/troll need charisma for any reason. And in the spirit of roleplaying, trolls and ogres are considered ugly amongst most people, therefore they have low charisma.

I hope I don't come across as a whiner, but damn, I tried to kill a level 13 dark blue at level 16 and used all my mana and it was at 45% health. I know a lot of you might say "quit crying and get some charisma equipment." While I'd like to do that, gear that would really help is probably 20+ levels away. I know I could probably get some charisma right now, but at my level I really should focus on wisdom/mana/hp. Trolls start with the lowest wisdom too!

Maybe I haven't fully adapted to my class/race combination yet. Maybe some other trolls/ogres that are shamans or shadow knights even can post back describing their stats and a rough estimate of how often a spell lands on the target. I'm not asking for anything to be fixed right away, I'd just like it to be noted that some races are giving a huge disadvantage. I don't want you to start them with 120 charisma, but maybe a little more than 45 yea? Give a troll/ogre a base of 60-80 charisma range and life would be a whole lot easier. I might be wrong with those numbers, I'm not 100% on class balancing, but all I'd ever hope for is a slight increase in that area.

Thanks to everyone who made it this far in my essay. Any feedback positive or negative will be used. Also if anyone can relate or has any suggestions for me that would also be very appreciated. (and I know shamans get a charisma buff spell, but that's only for 12 or so, and im grateful for it :)
 
Trolls and ogres start with low charisma because their str/stam are so high, it's one of the tradeoffs of being one of those races.
 
I think the reason for them starting with such low base charisma is the fact that no class combination with ogre/troll need charisma for any reason.
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The low charisma is an RP thing, and a trade off for extremly high str/sta base stats compared to other shamans.


Take a look at the other shaman race's base stats. It seems in line enough. Ogres have a whooping 130 STA/STR whereas the other races have 70-100 STA/STR (using those stats for a quick example). It's pretty balanced out as is, in my opinion.
 
Ok, then change it. Not doing anything is the easy choice, warriors are happy because they don't need charisma. But if everyone was supposed to be the generic race it would be boring.

Warrior - Ogre
Wizard - Erudite
Cleric - High Elf


It comes down to this: If charisma played the same role on live as it does here, trolls and ogres wouldn't start out with 42. If we want to talk roleplay, why does charisma affect how often a spell is resist? Does the monster only accept DD/DoT/Debuff's from players that they deem pretty and charismatic? Doubtful.

And I know someone will say "this isn't live." And to be honest, I'm glad it's not. But if you want to change around how things work like that you need to consider everyone. I know trolls and ogres might seem more like the warrior type, but not everyone feels the same.
 
You make a strong point, roleplay reasons aside. However, I'm not sure it's something that could be easily changed.
 
Xeldan said:
You make a strong point, roleplay reasons aside. However, I'm not sure it's something that could be easily changed.
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There's always the option of making trolls like me a charm with a zillion charisma.

No, but all jokes aside, I appreciate you guys taking note of this. I won't try to argue my point much more, unless someone says something drastic :eek:
If the change is risky and could cause problems I'd say leave it alone. I appreciate the responses from both a game master and content designer. Though one favor, if at all possible when the day comes and you do make your final decision could you make it public for everyone to see?

I appreciate it, take care.
 
I'd just like to say this was a great example of a good suggestion/request thread and many should take note of it.
 
Raherin said:
I think the reason for them starting with such low base charisma is the fact that no class combination with ogre/troll need charisma for any reason.
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The low charisma is an RP thing, and a trade off for extremly high str/sta base stats compared to other shamans.


Take a look at the other shaman race's base stats. It seems in line enough. Ogres have a whooping 130 STA/STR whereas the other races have 70-100 STA/STR (using those stats for a quick example). It's pretty balanced out as is, in my opinion.
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After the resist changes, it has got to be absolutely monstrous (pun unintended) to be a troll or ogre shaman in the formative levels.

To the OP: it may be small comfort, but there is a relatively easily obtainable cloak (cheap on vendors) for trolls and ogres that has a massive boost to charisma on it. I forget exactly what it's called, but it has a neat focus effect too. Let me see if I can find it on wanelo... here:

http://www.shardsofdalaya.com/wanelo/items.php?id=5017&charid=1208010

Oh crap. This didn't used to be nodrop. I've got to imagine it comes from WW drags, then. Maybe make this specific item droppable again to throw a bone to lowbie ogres/trolls? It never fetched much of a price on vendors so they could get it without too much bucks.
 
30 CHA isn't that hugamongous, we're talking about a couple percent resist chance difference at most.
 
Mirp said:
Wiz said:
30 CHA isn't that hugamongous, we're talking about a couple percent resist chance difference at most.
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how reassuring.
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In case you missed the point, I'm talking about the difference of 45 <-> 75 CHA. 30 extra CHA definitely helps, but it's not the difference between getting constantly resisted and landing spells easily.

If you didn't miss the point then it seems this is just another shitty resist thread where someone had bad luck on one mob and decided to post a rant about it.
 
Maybe our expectations are off. We really have no frame of reference at this point.



In the resist discussions, I have seen a 65 bard blasted for having 127 cha with the statement that you cannot expect to hit anything with 127 cha. We are also told here that 30 points of cha is nothing.





Is it possible to tell us more than half hints and disgust about a subject that you are obviously tired of?





Is charisma level based? Does it have diminished effect at lower levels, and a more pronounced effect in the later levels? Is it a flat rate of increase, or is it's growth exponental? Does it have diminishing returns?

What is the dev desired resistance rate of PC spells? What effect should level difference play? Blue con, white con, yellow con?

What level of CHA should players shoot for, broken up into 10 level increment, in order to achieve this?

How much of a factor should resist debuffs be?




You don't want to give out the exact numbers. That is understandable. But some general indications would go a long way.


I probably do nto need to tell you why this is such a huge deal to the players, but I will anyway. A resist ina group is annoying. A resist when solo is critical. You only have so much mana. Previously, you had some bad luck, you got 3 or 4 resists, you died. Now, you target much lower con mobs, don't get good luck, resist 5 or 6 times, and die.

Basically, we are lost in the dark. Can you help us find our way?
 
Ello,

I too play a troll, as I always have, in every game I've played that has had trolls as playable characters. I have always enjoyed playing them...but with this charisma issue, and playing a shaman (I also have always played shaman) I'm starting to wonder. Currently, I'm only level 14 but I cant even kill light blues sometimes because of insane resists, lol...it just doesnt make since.

If anything, from a roleplace experience, this does not make sense. Imagine, if you will, a little gnome going up against a big troll. The troll would be HUGE and extremely scary to the tiny gnome...the troll would intimidate the little gnome; having this by his side, the troll would be able to land spells more effeciently, one would think - so dont call this a roleplay issue - it's not.

This is just an issue of trying to mix things up a bit and make things more interesting, but it seems to make things a heck of a lot more frustrating to us trolls. We dont start out with much more sta and str than barbarians, plus we get a negative exp bonus, with a slight regen bonus, that probably isnt worth the trade off...besides, a lot of people like me dont really care about that, as long as we can play our races/classes and have fun it's all good. It's all about having fun, right?

But, knowing how the shaman class operates (playing 3 shamans to 50+ in EQ live, one shaman (defiler) to 50+ in eq2, another one to 60 in EQOA (for ps2) I can tell you that we rely on our spells; our spells have to land, give or take a resist here and there (but mostly from higher level targets). Our debuffs are key, but what if my low cha effects me landing this debuff?

It's a whole new game then, but only to use who suffer. We will only be able to fix this with item upgrades that add charisma at large. 30 point difference is high in my book.

Will SoD perhaps add more CHA items in for trolls/shamans? If so, we need some at lower levels. Will you incrase our cha base? Hopefully you guys take a look at this and let us know, because it is really discouraging to play a troll/ogre caster (sha/shd/bst) now.

Just my 2 centz.

Skorge
 
Its not just ogres and trolls, the humble dwarvern cleric suffers a 45 cha as well.

To the point where i dont even bother casting nukes with him, he just sits there bored out of his brain.
I have run the numbers over his lifetime and the resist rate seems moderate, but in RL the back to back resists are what frustrates the hell out of you:

Strike:
casts= 112
resists= 29
resist rate= 25%
Furor:
casts= 53
resists= 10
resist rate= 18%

He is not playable as a casting cleric, he already accidentally let someone die when 3 spells in a row got resisted on a 1% health mob that he wanted to nuke dead. Im thinking about deleting him because he is quite hopeless soloing blues when luck is not in his favour.

I know clerics are not supposed to be played like wizards, and i dont try to, but I was really hoping for a little bit of diversity then just stand-heal-sit. (I know he can tank a little, and he does, but a few times now Ive been tempted to delete his nuke spells from his spellbook due to utter frustration.)

---
EDIT: removed shammy, his resists were pulled over his lifetime and hence was subject to a variety of resist implementations
---

Now on to a couple of hopefully constructive suggestions:

1) (Newbie) CHA item quests for ugly races, ogres, trolls, iksars and dwarves!

2) I would love to see the ability for us to re-distribute our initial points, for a limited number of times, say 5 times like dvd player region codes. When you make significant changes(corrections) to the various game formulae, i feel its reasonable that we get to make a "correction" to our chars.

I was thinking of something like:
/cmd attributes reset # resets all attributes to base level for our race/class combo
/cmd attributes wis 10 # adds 10 points to wis
/cmd attributes cha 20 # adds 20 points to cha

Once chars have reset their attributes 5 times, then they cannot do it again until you determine that you have made significant changes to the formulas, whereupon you can reset out change counters back to give us 5 more attempts.

I am at the point of wanting to re-roll 3 characters. If i were to do that then you make changes to the formulas again, then i might wish to re-roll again and well, the cycle could be endless, and would not be much fun.

Anyhow, thanks for such a wonderous waste of time! :)
 
Charisma has ALWAYS affected resist rates here. This is nothing new.

As for clerics, well, you sort of have a point. There is nothing to do but melee when you get your summoned hammer, since your nukes are slow and inefficient (even on undead) and your only dot doesn't stack with Malo (nor does it do anything close to respectable damage, but that is not its main intent.) And when I say "nothing to do but melee" I mean, of course, aside from healing. Clerics heal; that is our job, and it is, arguably, what we do best. Soloing with a cleric is generally not worth it.
 
Solution: Make Ogres and Trolls land their spells better the lower their charisma is. Intimidation and nauseation factor. :hug:
 
seems that this affects mostly the newbie trolls and ogres. Most high lvls can/are able to get good amount of cha gear. Well I have a suggestion/idea to help this issue. Feel free to elaborate on this quest:

Dark elf Enc NPC [put name here] upon hailed by an oger or a troll says "Your looks are offending me, you are like a mix of an elephant and a walrus, but I'm willing to help you if you go fetch me some groceries".

your troll/oger says "I will fetch you gorceries"

Dark elf Enc NPC [put name here] "good I need some milk, snake eggs, fresh fruits, and a fresh meat inside a grocery bag. You do this for me and I will fix you up"

You can buy the bag from a merchant, some of the supplies from player PC's or foraged or whatever, then you return to the dark elf NPC.

Dark elf Enc NPC [put name here] grabs the bag from your hand and disposses the items inside on the ground in front of you.
Dark elf Enc NPC [put name here] puts the paper bag over your head.
Dark elf Enc NPC [put name here] "there, HAHAHAHA, you already look alot better. Now how about taking a shower?"

you received:

A Paper Bag

magic Item Lore Item No Drop
Slot: Head

Cha+25

Race: Troll Ogre
class: All

Weight .2
 
oh yeah, you can also upgrade the paper bag by adding lipstick to it, to a +5, but that will be some other quest
 
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