Thinking about knights, and SKs in particular.

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Wiz said:
So, you should be given more DPS, DPS classes should be given more tanking, and in the end, everyone is more powerful, and everyone is completely similar?
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Everyone gives up something to get something.
Again, as I said, my solution may be flawed.
But so far, I seem to be the only one even puttign forward a solution.
Whats your thoughts on it? You understand the game mechanics better than anyone else at this point, and must surely realise the plight of classes who are not one of the main four archetypes.
 
Nuncio said:
Wiz said:
So, you should be given more DPS, DPS classes should be given more tanking, and in the end, everyone is more powerful, and everyone is completely similar?
Click to expand...

Everyone gives up something to get something.
Again, as I said, my solution may be flawed.
But so far, I seem to be the only one even puttign forward a solution.
Whats your thoughts on it? You understand the game mechanics better than anyone else at this point, and must surely realise the plight of classes who are not one of the main four archetypes.
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Not really, in all honesty. After some testing, I've pretty much found out that knights can reach 70% of a rogue's DPS, survive on their own for a long long time (raid survivability), tank practically anything... tooled knights are incredibly powerful. If anything i'd say Warriors have the greater plight over them, because you only need one to MT.
 
So give me a 36 person raid lineup. What would you take on a 36 person raid?
And you don't nee donly one MT. You need backup MT for when MT dies. You need ramp tanks, and warriors are most often chosen for those as well, in my experience.

/edit
I should add, I see weaknesses in balancing of all these classes. But the balancing is against the content. Its true that were content changed, the balance issue could change drastically.
If more encounters required raid groups that werent based on the classic warrior/cleric/chanter/DPS, the issue would dissapate.
 
I would take:

2 warriors
4 clerics
2 druids
2 shamans
2 enchanters
2 paladins
2 shadowknights
2 monks
4 rogues
2 necromancers
4 wizards
2 magicians
2 beastlords
2 rangers
2 bards

Leaving 2 slots to fill at will with more DPS or healing depending on what's needed. This is the most balanced raid imaginable. It can do absolutely anything, has every ability, and has DPS that can handle any mob in the game. If a person has to leave, you still always have one in reserve, so you never fall short of any class.

There really isn't a reason to go top-heavy in DPS as there's almost no encounters in the game that require a DPS-heavy 36 person raid and also do not require something additional. Going DPS heavy against mobs like King is just unsafe or silly overkill, mobs like Zirvane require rampage tanks, Prison mobs all have their own tactics and needs... it seems to me that you haven't even seen most of the raid content that is out there. Can you tell me a single NToV mob that needs a DPS-leaning 36 person raid?
 
Your lineup has 20 DPS classes, yet you are telling me that you don't need a DPS heavy force.
20 DPS out of 36 people.
That leaves 44.5% of the raid to be filled out by the other 3 archetypes.
Less than 15% per archetype as opposed to 55% for one archetype.
The faster a mob dies, the less chance the MT has of dying.
Dunno.
Maybe I'm just being lame.
God knows I had fun being offtanks on live, and im not properly equipped to offtank her eon WR yet, so it may just be me needing to get leveled/aa'd up and get some better gear.
We are already discussing the new raid lineup however. It will leave people out. I expect at least one of my toons to be one of those left out, if not both of them.
 
OK, now you're just trying to twist my words.

Apparently you not only want Knights to be as wanted as other classes, you want two classes (Knights) to be needed in equal numbers to six+ classes (DPS).

I think we can stop here then since you're just selfish.
 
Sorry, not trying to twist your words.
And I'm not just talking about about knights anymore.
Im basically talking about anyone who isn't DPS, as this thread has moved pretty far away form the originl post?
I dont understand where my last post was incorrect or misleading.
In any case, the players in the guild we field for riads is not THAT far off from your raid lineup, except fewer rogues, wizzies and pallies, and more SKs, shaman, mages and warriors.
I'm sure it will all work out.
 
I understand that knights tanks well, but if we aren't tanking it really seems like we are just taking up space in a raid. There are times I sit at raids and wonder what I can do to really try helpout more or do better to make that difference, but I always come up empty handed. Knights are kinda like the jack of all trades, but master of none. I know these changes you made were never meant to alienate anyone, but it seems like thats what its gonna come down to.

Carnigo Coconut
65 Halfing Paladin
<Phoenix Rising>
 
Im actually glad about the 36 person limit. I think it makes sense.
Just need to tailor either classes to be more versatile, or tune individual encounters to need a more diverse spread of classes.

/edit
By the way, in response to this statement:
Apparently you not only want Knights to be as wanted as other classes, you want two classes (Knights) to be needed in equal numbers to six+ classes (DPS).
Click to expand...

Knights SHOUL be "as wanted" as other classes. If they arent, theres no reason to play one or bring one. It's not my intention to have them (or any other class) replace or make unwanted ANOTHER class. Only to allow them to fill in to a reasonable degree, spaces left open by lack of OTHER classes.
 
Nuncio said:
Im actually glad about the 36 person limit. I think it makes sense.
Just need to tailor either classes to be more versatile, or tune individual encounters to need a more diverse spread of classes.

/edit
By the way, in response to this statement:
Apparently you not only want Knights to be as wanted as other classes, you want two classes (Knights) to be needed in equal numbers to six+ classes (DPS).
Click to expand...

Knights SHOUL be "as wanted" as other classes. If they arent, theres no reason to play one or bring one. It's not my intention to have them (or any other class) replace or make unwanted ANOTHER class. Only to allow them to fill in to a reasonable degree, spaces left open by lack of OTHER classes.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. You don't want a paladin to be as wanted as a monk. You want a paladin to be as wanted as half the DPS classes combined, which is just plain unafir.
 
No matter how hard you try, you'll never hear the phrase, "Man, all this raid is lacking is a paladin. Sorry guys, we gotta call it, no pally. =("
 
Wiz said:
Nuncio said:
Im actually glad about the 36 person limit. I think it makes sense.
Just need to tailor either classes to be more versatile, or tune individual encounters to need a more diverse spread of classes.

/edit
By the way, in response to this statement:
Apparently you not only want Knights to be as wanted as other classes, you want two classes (Knights) to be needed in equal numbers to six+ classes (DPS).
Click to expand...

Knights SHOUL be "as wanted" as other classes. If they arent, theres no reason to play one or bring one. It's not my intention to have them (or any other class) replace or make unwanted ANOTHER class. Only to allow them to fill in to a reasonable degree, spaces left open by lack of OTHER classes.
Click to expand...

You don't get it. You don't want a paladin to be as wanted as a monk. You want a paladin to be as wanted as half the DPS classes combined, which is just plain unafir.
Click to expand...
Lets get off the DPS thing. I personally dont give a rats ass if knights do more or less DPS. They are primarily a tank, and secondly a utility class.
So screw DPS. I agree, more DPS is not needed from knights.
But SOMETHING is needed.
How bout something like this:
You said you wanted pallies to be best group healers and self healers. Thats cool. That gives them a great 'in' in a raid situation. Could even go so far as to make a group poison or disease removed.
For SKs, you could change their debuffs to group recources, and have those show up in the bard songs window. Nothing huge, but something noticable. Maybe 3 group recourse debuffs. AC recource, str/sta recourse, and dex/agi recourse. Or whatever.
Make some mobs mitigate piercing damage so rangers and monks will be called on for the DPS for that mob. Or switch that stuff around on a lot of mobs, so various toon rotation is required for varying mobs.
I dunno, I'm just throwing stuff out there. Wiz, you've done an admirable job in your balance of WR, much better than sony, that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement though.
 
What ever happened to just simply having fun playing the game? Instead you need to pick it apart and analize every last little thing about your class and how useful or useless it is compared to other classes.

YOU made that class so just enjoy it for what it CAN do, not be all pissed off about what it CANT do. That is why there are more then just one class, because each it good at something and bad at something. You act as if you are being punished for making a Knight class...

You buy the ticket, you take the ride.
 
Thats a pretty short sighted outlook, Reem. The fact that you enjoy playing a certain class does not mean that said class could not benefit from some upgrades adn/or tweaking to better benefit a group without unbalancing it.
Actually, I can pretty much dismiss your entire post, it doesn't hold any real value whatsoever.
 
Nuncio said:
Thats a pretty short sighted outlook, Reem. The fact that you enjoy playing a certain class does not mean that said class could not benefit from some upgrades adn/or tweaking to better benefit a group without unbalancing it.
Actually, I can pretty much dismiss your entire post, it doesn't hold any real value whatsoever.
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I was just saying the way I see it. If my post is of no Value to you then, well atleast i said something. I guess it was naive of me to think a post like mine could chang the mind of a person like you. Oh well. ;)
 
You aren't thinking.
If everyone felt the way you seem to be suggesting, nothing would ever get improved.
 
I really should have known how it would turn out if I posted in this thread. I have delt with people like you before...

Nuncio you are being undeniably difficult. You are obviously a high maintenance player. Its was players like you that got other classes nerfed on EQLive.

Good luck bro, you are going to need it.
 
Reem said:
I really should have known how it would turn out if I posted in this thread. I have delt with people like you before...

Nuncio you are being undeniably difficult. You are obviously a high maintenance player.

Good luck bro, you are going to need it.
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You couldn't possibly be more mistaken.
Interesting that you must resort to (erroneous) personal observations about me rather than refute or discuss the points I've brought up ina logical, intelligent manner.
 
Well, you did start this thread so, please excuse me for having caused a disturbance in your important discussion. Just thought my opinion might be of some use but obviously not.

Later. :D
 
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