Thinking about knights, and SKs in particular.
- Thread starter Nuncio
- Start date
- Status
How you manage to dismiss the ability to solo something so grossly powerful like a WW dragon is beyond me. The fact that you are failing to see how useful that raw power is in many grouping/raid situations is also unbelievable.
Shit hits the fan? Group healer died? Yeah well, chances are the SK can just plain out heal himself on the mob and save the group.
Unexpected add on a raid? Yeah ok, mr. SK here can snag aggro from a range of 200+ almost instantly, and will probably even give the healers a longer window of opportunity to heal than a warrior would.
I won't even go into aggro buffs, feign death (huge) and ghetto-mezzing for CC.
Also, Nuncio, out of curiosity (Since I don't know who your SK is)... Do you play a well-AA'ed/geared SK? In other words, do you even know what you are talking about? I don't claim to know it all since I don't main the class, but I do know more than your average joe.
That is all.
Shit hits the fan? Group healer died? Yeah well, chances are the SK can just plain out heal himself on the mob and save the group.
Unexpected add on a raid? Yeah ok, mr. SK here can snag aggro from a range of 200+ almost instantly, and will probably even give the healers a longer window of opportunity to heal than a warrior would.
I won't even go into aggro buffs, feign death (huge) and ghetto-mezzing for CC.
Also, Nuncio, out of curiosity (Since I don't know who your SK is)... Do you play a well-AA'ed/geared SK? In other words, do you even know what you are talking about? I don't claim to know it all since I don't main the class, but I do know more than your average joe.
That is all.
Not well geared or well aa'd here, no. Moderately well geared adn AAd on live a while ago.
I agree, all those things are kickass. SKs are awesome offtanks. It's just that... well, I seldom see them used for that anymore.
Heres the problem.
You say "Too many knights on the raid"
You cannot say "Too many rogues on the raid"
or "too many healers on the raid"
This means that something is wrong with Knights and their roles.
This also means that people will be penalized for wanting to play knights.
I'm trying to think of something that could help them ill another role so they are not useless on a raid if there is more than 2.
Believe me, sp4mm, know the merits of an SK. On live, I was teh ONLY active SK in my guild, and I was used actively for mez tanking, offtanking and pulling.
Perhaps I will be here too when I level and AA up. We'll see. Wont change my opinion that knights NOT in that position need something to do.
I agree, all those things are kickass. SKs are awesome offtanks. It's just that... well, I seldom see them used for that anymore.
Heres the problem.
You say "Too many knights on the raid"
You cannot say "Too many rogues on the raid"
or "too many healers on the raid"
This means that something is wrong with Knights and their roles.
This also means that people will be penalized for wanting to play knights.
I'm trying to think of something that could help them ill another role so they are not useless on a raid if there is more than 2.
Believe me, sp4mm, know the merits of an SK. On live, I was teh ONLY active SK in my guild, and I was used actively for mez tanking, offtanking and pulling.
Perhaps I will be here too when I level and AA up. We'll see. Wont change my opinion that knights NOT in that position need something to do.
Nuncio said:
Another thing you can hear very easily is too many enchanters on the raid. Yet are they complaining that their class isn't powerful enough? Knights are useful, they can be extremely powerful. There are just some classes that you need more of, they aren't any more useful, what would happen to the raid of you took an entire raid force of clerics? They wouldn't get anywhere. You NEED the warriors and the knights and the rogues and all the rest of that, you just need more of some things than you need of others.
Okey so far i played my paladin for 42 lvls and i love it. I played 2 paladins in live one to lvl 52 and the other to lvl 70. Who i recreated here. Paladins really are not great at raids, old days paladins used to do was a chain LoH on the warrior while the warrior was trying to get agro, pally died but cleric and the rest of the casters were saved untill agro was hold. SK's main role while raid was to tank the adds and the HT to the mob to finish it off. Other than that they are there to support a raid, no raid is a one man only thing, they require support from everyone. If you dont know what you are goign to do with your SK in the raid, then is time for you to find a way to do something. I really like what they have done to pallys here and i think that SK's also got alot of good things on their hands compared to live servers. Oh BTW SK/PAL are not DPS, they were not intended to be in live, and I dont belive they were intedded to be here. For raid tanking mobs and DPS play a warrior, for groups a knight makes a better choice. my 2 cps. Thanks.
I know the role of an SK on raids.
I also know that having more than 2 knights on any raid is kinda dumb in their current capabilities.
Which is why, if you can wrap your heads around this, I'm suggesting something for them to do while the well geared knights do those jobs.
I think this should be done for every class. Give the warrior somethign to do while theya rent tanking. Give the chanter something to do when another chanter is handlin CC.
Catch my meaning?
I also know that having more than 2 knights on any raid is kinda dumb in their current capabilities.
Which is why, if you can wrap your heads around this, I'm suggesting something for them to do while the well geared knights do those jobs.
I think this should be done for every class. Give the warrior somethign to do while theya rent tanking. Give the chanter something to do when another chanter is handlin CC.
Catch my meaning?
Nuncio said:
Chanter has something to do when another is handling CC, it's called debuffing like a madman.
And for the rest of your post... what exactly is a warrior supposed to do besides tank? That's just what they do, while the cleric keeps them alive they tank. The SK's handles the adds, the shaman help out with debuffing and toss in a few of their vicious DOT's. Classes are more or less balanced and there are some that you'll never need more than one or two.
I understand how you feel, but in all honesty I agree with the others. If you bump up the lower tier DPS, then it starts to encroach on the other classes who have less utility role and rely on their higher dps to remain useful. If you give Shadowknights a substantial DPS upgrade, then it ruffles the feathers of beastlords, rangers, monks, and some of the other mid-upper DPS classes who now find that they're only slightly above Knight DPS, and don't have the option to tank. Then they start whinning for a 'defensive boost' and a nasty cycle of balance disruption is formed.
Lots of classes don't stack well in raids, and unfortunatly thats just a fact of life.
Lots of classes don't stack well in raids, and unfortunatly thats just a fact of life.
It's only a 'fact of life' because people, for whatever reason, are unable to get their heads 3 inches past classic EQ Class (im)balances.
If you reallyt hink this way, you need to look at monks abilities on this server. Looks like a light tank to me ,with disproportionatly high DPS in comparison.
Not to get monks nerfed, I think they are fine here. But whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
There are two high end raiding guilds on the server. Surely a raid of 36 peopel does not require more than 2 knights for a raid. Assuming that one or two fo teh knights cannot make it to EVERY raid, lets say that at least three, and at the most four, knights are required per guild.
Lets say for teh saake of argument that there are at least 2 other guilds that occasionlly require the use of a knight on the server.
So really, the server needs only 8 minimum, 12 maximum, knights. Period.
If you aernt one of those 12, and you are a knight and want to raid, well, youd better just reroll a DPS, Healer or pure melee.
Now, does that make sense to accept? Especially when you have the ability to do something about it?
Anyway, I'm done. You are too entrenched in EQ's class system to see possibilities outside of their 'vision'.
If you reallyt hink this way, you need to look at monks abilities on this server. Looks like a light tank to me ,with disproportionatly high DPS in comparison.
Not to get monks nerfed, I think they are fine here. But whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
There are two high end raiding guilds on the server. Surely a raid of 36 peopel does not require more than 2 knights for a raid. Assuming that one or two fo teh knights cannot make it to EVERY raid, lets say that at least three, and at the most four, knights are required per guild.
Lets say for teh saake of argument that there are at least 2 other guilds that occasionlly require the use of a knight on the server.
So really, the server needs only 8 minimum, 12 maximum, knights. Period.
If you aernt one of those 12, and you are a knight and want to raid, well, youd better just reroll a DPS, Healer or pure melee.
Now, does that make sense to accept? Especially when you have the ability to do something about it?
Anyway, I'm done. You are too entrenched in EQ's class system to see possibilities outside of their 'vision'.
Id be fine with it in varying degrees.
for instance:
monk tanks 90% as well and does 10% more damage in tank mode than knight in regular mode. (pulling these %'s out of my ass, would absolutely need testing and fine tuning.) Im talking about overlapping duties.
Honestly though, I don't think anyone is interested in hearig anything that may usurp their pre-determined roles (especially when their roles are as clearly defined as most classes are with a few exceptions) even though it may allow them some new duties they might find useful or fun.
for instance:
monk tanks 90% as well and does 10% more damage in tank mode than knight in regular mode. (pulling these %'s out of my ass, would absolutely need testing and fine tuning.) Im talking about overlapping duties.
Honestly though, I don't think anyone is interested in hearig anything that may usurp their pre-determined roles (especially when their roles are as clearly defined as most classes are with a few exceptions) even though it may allow them some new duties they might find useful or fun.
there is raid mobs i seen that when they are low on HP they summon adds, this is a great addition to give the knights something to do, example of this is the Adept Harpy in obsidian mountains, she summons mobs as she starts dropping on health starting at 70%, that's a perfect example on why you will use the knights on a raid. And please dont give monks the ability to tank sick of how they replaced just about every tank class in EQ live, we dont need that here lol. Personally i think knights are well balanced here. I do have a suggestion, since warrior are the basis of all melee classes, I do suggest that they have all melee skills that monks have block(without a shield like monks do), and a higher taunt skill cap. I'm saying thsi because i do feel that knights have a good advantage over warriors when it comes to grabbing agro when grouping. But other than that i feel that WR has the BEST character balancing.
With the new code for 36 people in a raid tops, expect to see most hybrids and 'non-essential (meaning non-premium min/max)' classes LFG while thier guild is raiding.
This is even more of a reason to give ALL classes a greater spread of abilities.
When 60 to 70 % of your raid force needs to be DPS, it doesnt leave much room for the other 3 types (tank, heal, CC.)
This is even more of a reason to give ALL classes a greater spread of abilities.
When 60 to 70 % of your raid force needs to be DPS, it doesnt leave much room for the other 3 types (tank, heal, CC.)
Wiz said:
Not at all, Wiz.
I agree that 36 people is a good limit.
The only good thing about there not being a limit is it allowed some less desirable raid classes to tag along.
And thats my whole point.
You guys keep missing that.
"You can solo"
Well good, because I'm gonna HAVE to be soloing.
"
You think more peopel are needed to take down a raid mob"
No I dont. I think all classes should have a wider range of options available to them so they can play the class they like and still be uesful in raid situations.
"You only need 1 or 2 of <classX> on a raid"
Agreed. So what are the other 90% of <classx> supposed to be doing during raid times?
"<classx> is required for encounter Y, so see, you ARE needed"
If you arent needed on the other 99% of raids, how do you expect to get geared to handle encounter Y, not to mention, you only need one of <classx>. What does the rest of <classx> in the guild do?
"You cant give <classx> that ability, it will be stepping on <classz>'s toes".
OK, so what skill does <classx> have that make them needed in most encounters?
Do I need to go on?
Im wanting rogues and monks to have a waider range of abilites too.Wiz said:
And I hate to say it Wiz, but your comment doesn't do anything to address the issue.
I believe I have a valid point.
If you disagree, I'd appreciate a valid reason WHY you disagree.
All you did was repeat/confirm this comment I made
I know balancing is hard. I know my suggestions may not be valid solutions. But the issues DO need to be addressed.
Unless of course, you think that Warriors, Wziards, Rogues, Clerics and Monks are the only classes that should be used in any numbers on raids.
Which of course, you are entitled to, as it's your server.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
So, you should be given more DPS, DPS classes should be given more tanking, and in the end, everyone is more powerful, and everyone is completely similar?
The reality is that knights are perfectly usable on raids. They're not the best DPS, but with the right offensive AAs and a 2hander they can pull their own weight, plus adding a reserve tank (which lengthens the survivability of the raid, which is what beating hard encounters is all about).
The reality is that knights are perfectly usable on raids. They're not the best DPS, but with the right offensive AAs and a 2hander they can pull their own weight, plus adding a reserve tank (which lengthens the survivability of the raid, which is what beating hard encounters is all about).
- Status