Thinking about knights, and SKs in particular.

[Nuncio]

I've noticed that about 99% of the time on raids, shadow knights tend to doonly 2 things : occasionally pull (which monks are superior at) and DPS (which everything but clerics and, chanters and shaman are superior at).
Usually, though, it's DPS, which is pretty pathetic, our DPS uh, leaves something to be desired.
It would be nice to have another style available to us at say, 61, thats an 'upgrade' to our avoidance decrease/ haste increase style.
Make it something that makes you have a 2hander equiped, decrease both avoidance and mitigation by 50 to 75% and disable parry/block/riposte, haste us 20%, either increase melee damage by a percentage or make us crit a lot.
This would give us knights something to do on a raid, and the downsides of it would make sure we couldn't use it while tanking. I feel pretty damned useless on raids as an SK most of the time :\
Something similar could be done for pallies.

 

[Aratar]

Sounds a lot better than Lady's Guard, that's for sure. But making it for 2handers only is going to make Paladins cry. We already have a style that is 2hander-only (supposedly our raid-tanking style, but we lose a crapload of stats and AC with it).

 

[Nuncio]

Sounds a lot better than Lady's Guard, that's for sure. But making it for 2handers only is going to make Paladins cry. We already have a style that is 2hander-only (supposedly our raid-tanking style, but we lose a crapload of stats and AC with it).

Well, the problem with most of knights styles is that they pretty much assume you are tanking (or doing ghetto CC).
The reason I say require 2 handers is that a.) they are higher DPS to begin with and b.) they negate the use of shields and drop AC.
This style would be designed to give knights something to do in a raid environment without making them overpowered, or able to switch to offtank or tank position, It owuld basically make us a (lower end) paper-thin dps class for when we've got nothing to do, which is 99% of raid time.

 

[maddctr]

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

Do perform these duties fully you need roughly 200 aa's and 5k hps +level 65. Everything up until that point is spent in grind and gearing.

 

[Nuncio]

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

Do perform these duties fully you need roughly 200 aa's and 5k hps +level 65. Everything up until that point is spent in grind and gearing.

Agreed. However, if you've got 4 knights on a raid, at least 2 will be relegated to doing dps. Only occasionaly will they be needed for ghetto CC. Mana drain can be done without issue with or without added DPS. No SK is doing mana drain duty while tanking.

 

[zodium]

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

Do perform these duties fully you need roughly 200 aa's and 5k hps +level 65. Everything up until that point is spent in grind and gearing.

Agreed. However, if you've got 4 knights on a raid, at least 2 will be relegated to doing dps. Only occasionaly will they be needed for ghetto CC. Mana drain can be done without issue with or without added DPS. No SK is doing mana drain duty while tanking.

If you've got 4 knights on a raid, it's your own damn fault. There's no need for 4 knights on any raid, so you don't bring 4 knights.

 

[Nuncio]

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

Do perform these duties fully you need roughly 200 aa's and 5k hps +level 65. Everything up until that point is spent in grind and gearing.

Agreed. However, if you've got 4 knights on a raid, at least 2 will be relegated to doing dps. Only occasionaly will they be needed for ghetto CC. Mana drain can be done without issue with or without added DPS. No SK is doing mana drain duty while tanking.

If you've got 4 knights on a raid, it's your own damn fault. There's no need for 4 knights on any raid, so you don't bring 4 knights.

Dont need 4 warriors either, but have em often enough.
What do you tell your guildies, "don't bother coming to raid, yer useless.."
Yeah, thats screwed.
So Melwin, if thats the way ya feel, you need to change the classes even selectable in WR. Get rid of everything but Clr, War, Rogue, Chanter, Wiz, Monk and possibly Necro. Because according to you, If you arent one of those, you shouldnt be playing. (Oh yeah, only need 1 or 2 chanters per raid, so maybe make them bots that can be hired.)

 

[zodium]

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

Do perform these duties fully you need roughly 200 aa's and 5k hps +level 65. Everything up until that point is spent in grind and gearing.

Agreed. However, if you've got 4 knights on a raid, at least 2 will be relegated to doing dps. Only occasionaly will they be needed for ghetto CC. Mana drain can be done without issue with or without added DPS. No SK is doing mana drain duty while tanking.

If you've got 4 knights on a raid, it's your own damn fault. There's no need for 4 knights on any raid, so you don't bring 4 knights.

Dont need 4 warriors either, but have em often enough.
What do you tell your guildies, "don't bother coming to raid, yer useless.."
Yeah, thats screwed.
So Melwin, if thats the way ya feel, you need to change the classes even selectable in WR. Get rid of everything but Clr, War, Rogue, Chanter, Wiz, Monk and possibly Necro. Because according to you, If you arent one of those, you shouldnt be playing. (Oh yeah, only need 1 or 2 chanters per raid, so maybe make them bots that can be hired.)

You could always just not mass invite whoever wants to join your guild and take what classes you actually need into consideration?

 

[Nuncio]

Melwin, all that does is make all hybrids and some casters completely unwanted, which means they are a useless class.
That doesn't fix the problem, that only perpetuates it.
Im proposing a way to help fix it.
Again, your proposal means one thing : All pure melee classes, clerics, wiz and chanter are the only necessary classes. If you aren't one of these, don't bother logging in.
If ya can't see that, well, I dunno what to tell ya.

 

[maddctr]

You could always just not mass invite whoever wants to join your guild and take what classes you actually need into consideration?

What exactly are you insinuating?[/quote]

 

[zodium]

You could always just not mass invite whoever wants to join your guild and take what classes you actually need into consideration?

What exactly are you insinuating?

[/quote]

That people who brings 4 knights to raids consistently aren't recruiting based on what they need.

 

[maddctr]

How do you know what our guild needs are? I would remind you that unneccessary drama adds nothing to this thread.

 

[Nuncio]

He's insinuating that a server with less than 200 players on at any given time shouldn't guild people that don't fit the classic EQL raiding mold, and that classes that don't fit that mold are pretty much useless.
Not very constructive, IMO.

 

[zodium]

You act as though it's not perfectly doable, Nuncio.

 

[Nuncio]

You act as though it's not perfectly doable, Nuncio.

I assume by 'it' you mean guilding only classic EQL raid holy trinity and standard support.
Of course it's doable.
But not much fun.
Not everyone wants to play those. And I shouldn't have to remind you, this ISN'T EQL. You guys can change things and make things fun and balanced for ALL classes.
If 200 toons are logged on at any given minute, you are looking at probably around 120 actual players. Should these 120 people be required to play wiz/war/clr/rq/mnk/chant if they want to raid? If you think so, why don't you give some reasons WHY you think so?

 

[Aratar]

I just wanted opinion of those that play in WR. Basically the importance is the class you could never have enough of on high end encounters.

Cleric
Wizard
Druid
Rogue
Ranger
Warrior
Magician
Monk
Necromancer
Bard
Beastmaster
Shaman
Enchanter
Shadowknight
Paladin

If you had any concept of raiding mechanics you too would laugh at how retarded this thread is.

If you've got 4 knights on a raid, it's your own damn fault. There's no need for 4 knights on any raid, so you don't bring 4 knights.

Looks like you share a similar viewpoint, yet when he said it, it was retarded.

 

[Wiz]

DPS isn't the solution, if SKs/Paladins can do monk/ranger/rogue DPS, then who would ever play one of those?

Paladins are being given healing/utility, and I intend to turn them into the best self/group healers in the game.

Shadowknights are more of a tough cookie... they have some existing utility, but probably need something additional for raids. I don't know what, but it's not DPS.

You should note though, that 4 is a lot of nearby every class, including warrior, enchanter, etc. Raids are geared to a max of 36 people. 36/15 classes = 2-3 of each class.

 

[Nuncio]

A person shouldn't be excluded from raids because of the class they chose.
There aren't really 14 classes. Theres 4.
Those are

Tank
Healer
DPS
Crowd Control

There's various degrees of utility. If one specialty class inside of these 4 is notably superior to another within the same category, the inferior one will never be used for their main purpose.
No amount of 'utility' can fix that or make up for the fact that a tank never gets to tank, or a DPS class never gets to DPS.
If you can't make them viable at their job in raid scenarios, you need to make them viable as something else during raid times.
How you want to do that is another question.
Or, you could go with Melwins leanings and just eliminate hybrids, mages, druids and probably shaman from the game entirely.

 

[Wiz]

So, what you're saying is that I should make druids nuke the same as wizards since they heal worse than clerics?

 

[rab]

If you can't make them viable at their job in raid scenarios, you need to make them viable as something else during raid times.

Shadowknights ARE useful at their job in raid scenarios. The job being

sk's have a few main duties on raids, 1st is non dam agro tanking for first line CC, 2nd is pulling which certain areas they excell at due to higher hps and ac than monks, 3rd is mana draining and dps which comes from aa's.4th is increasing the hate of the MT.

It's just the nature of the game that certain classes are not needed in bulk. If the shadowknight could become, say, ghetto monk DPS at will, it infringes on the monk, because the monk can't become a ghetto tank at will. OK, I guess I should take that back, because a top end monk can be a very decent tank. But this DPS issue seems to be aimed at non top end SKs, because a top end SK is doing the above duties.