Rouh
Dalayan Adventurer
One could argue, that tailoring zones to the various tanking styles of the Paladin, SK, and Warrior is not truly balancing these classes, but more "tipping the scale".
I'm not really making any point here. Just saying.
The Sk and Warrior EXP disadvantage.
- Thread starter Glamrin
- Start date
One could argue, that tailoring zones to the various tanking styles of the Paladin, SK, and Warrior is not truly balancing these classes, but more "tipping the scale".
I'm not really making any point here. Just saying.
I don't think you fully realize the extent experience would have to be augmented in "harder" zones to nullify, or even bridge, paladins' advantages over other tanks. I'll try to put this into perspective: it would require an almost worldwide zone revamp to scale zone difficulty and exp/cash rewards with their intended tier.
You can't just "up" experience in a select few zones. It's not that simple.
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Severien
Dalayan Adventurer
Having tierings as stratified as they are whilst max level stays at 65 (and therefore, the xp from zone x will always be just as good per mob as it ever was for you) is what leads to these zones becoming easy, low-risk xp farms. Content almost never becomes truly trivialized. You can't simply increase the xp rate in more difficult zones, AE tanking will always be viable in some form once you've acquired enough gear (XP would explode exponentially). We have 9 tiers of raid content, and the difference between each in terms of gear is pretty damn substantial. Some more than others, of course (5-6 is huge, as is 7-8 and 8-9), but the difference between a tier 4 toon and a tier 8 toon is like night and day. How do you balance group content when both of these exist and get the same xp off of the same mob? You can create zones that the tier 4 toon cannot effectively access, but you can't really keep the tier 8 player out of the content designed for the tier 4 toon, and that is what causes most of our class balance issues here.
I will say I'm pretty happy where my class is right now - being a well-geared player. Low-end warriors are terrible. If I were to make any changes to tanks, I would leave warriors and paladins alone, and give the SK a boost to hate and lifetap healing in some form that has scalability. I'd consider some form of addition to utility as well, but SK utility already exists in the form of FD and is poorly utilized by most people who actually play the class (in my experience). The limited utility an SK has in the form of buffs is made generally useless.
Heres a random idea off the top of my head, its minor, and I came up with it in 5 minutes at 6am, but its an interesting solution (to a non-problem?):
I have trouble in raids with getting SKs to hate buff me, they bitch about recast, or wanting to use it on themselves, or are just plain lazy, and it eats a buff slot, blah blah. So add a unique aug slot to weapons (we have ones that aren't being used), give SKs a spell to summon an item that creates an aug (a la searfires) to fit that slot that could provide a universal +aggr effect that stacks with +aggression
Or maybe something else fun like:
Hate procs
Lifetap procs
Mana taps
Small necro-type DoTs
Poison DDs
Holy shit batman, lore-centric, stacking utility for shadowknights! Who would have thought this was possible? Maybe a recourse like shared mind? Who the fuck knows.
I will say I'm pretty happy where my class is right now - being a well-geared player. Low-end warriors are terrible. If I were to make any changes to tanks, I would leave warriors and paladins alone, and give the SK a boost to hate and lifetap healing in some form that has scalability. I'd consider some form of addition to utility as well, but SK utility already exists in the form of FD and is poorly utilized by most people who actually play the class (in my experience). The limited utility an SK has in the form of buffs is made generally useless.
Heres a random idea off the top of my head, its minor, and I came up with it in 5 minutes at 6am, but its an interesting solution (to a non-problem?):
I have trouble in raids with getting SKs to hate buff me, they bitch about recast, or wanting to use it on themselves, or are just plain lazy, and it eats a buff slot, blah blah. So add a unique aug slot to weapons (we have ones that aren't being used), give SKs a spell to summon an item that creates an aug (a la searfires) to fit that slot that could provide a universal +aggr effect that stacks with +aggression
Or maybe something else fun like:
Hate procs
Lifetap procs
Mana taps
Small necro-type DoTs
Poison DDs
Holy shit batman, lore-centric, stacking utility for shadowknights! Who would have thought this was possible? Maybe a recourse like shared mind? Who the fuck knows.
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I keep hearing that SK's have such a disadvantage to Paladins and similar statements. And I continue to have very different experiences. I have no parses, just my experience.
Last night on a M Tmap, no guild tanks were available so I pulled out my Paladin (65 138 AA's Deepmetal type gear). We also had an SK (level 61 36 AA, several wyvenhide armor). I was going full aggro since we also had a wizard and Kilzor (65 Rogue 239 AA tier 4 gear). Even then the SK was pulling aggro from me just using his spears. And promptly dying of course. But I was using my full array of taunt spells and also had my stun AA to use. And my gear and AA's are vastly superior to his.
Fomelo Fivof (if his pick is equipped, he was using Blade of Blazing Inferno and Aegis of the Frozen) for the Paladin and Baylen for the SK to see the gear.
On the other hand, when I play my 57 SK, Loterpot, I very rarely lose aggro.
I am left with the conclusion that if there is a problem, it is only at the Tier 5+ part of the game.
I am really not trying to add drama to the boards. And I don't have a dog in the fight since I main a Beastlord and have both a SK and Paladin. I just don't think Paladins have this great advantage, and in fact are at a great disadvantage in single target aggro.
Last night on a M Tmap, no guild tanks were available so I pulled out my Paladin (65 138 AA's Deepmetal type gear). We also had an SK (level 61 36 AA, several wyvenhide armor). I was going full aggro since we also had a wizard and Kilzor (65 Rogue 239 AA tier 4 gear). Even then the SK was pulling aggro from me just using his spears. And promptly dying of course. But I was using my full array of taunt spells and also had my stun AA to use. And my gear and AA's are vastly superior to his.
Fomelo Fivof (if his pick is equipped, he was using Blade of Blazing Inferno and Aegis of the Frozen) for the Paladin and Baylen for the SK to see the gear.
On the other hand, when I play my 57 SK, Loterpot, I very rarely lose aggro.
I am left with the conclusion that if there is a problem, it is only at the Tier 5+ part of the game.
I am really not trying to add drama to the boards. And I don't have a dog in the fight since I main a Beastlord and have both a SK and Paladin. I just don't think Paladins have this great advantage, and in fact are at a great disadvantage in single target aggro.
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I'm left with the conclusion that you don't know how to play a paladin to its full potential, or are just too lazy to do so. Every paladin I've played throughout the tiers absolutely dominates ae aggro, and most of them can hold aggro off any warrior in the game on any single target. SKs are intended to have superior single target aggro (though I doubt it's possible for a 61 shadowknight to hold aggro off a 65+ paladin, unless the latter is superslack).
Your post is irrelevant anyway. This thread is about a paladin's advantages in any group (or even solo) exp scenario.
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j0kie_smurf
Dalayan Beginner
Personally, I have to very m uch agree with this. You can't have a one class does it all and still have game balance. you are not going to hold your player base with completely one-sided classing. It's just plain stupid to want to even attempt a one class does it all. And anyone playing a paladin who whines, cries or otherwise is a sissy, YOU ARE NOT A PALADIN. True paladins are willing to take the good with the bad. True paladins don't whine because they didn't get what they want. You're thinking of a bard or something, but not a paladin.
On the issue of tanking. Each tank class has their own role in a group and a solo situation. Yes I agree paladins are excellent in a group, but on my paladin I also solo very well. SK's are better at soloing, BUT the SK is sort of supposed to be a loner. Warriors are the masters of raw melee. Straight smash mouth. No spells to fall back on, no pets, just arm and sword. A warrior played right should out tank the other two hands down or you're doing something wrong.
In my opinion it's like this......grow up, shut up and play the game or find another one like WoW where you get spoon fed and can be lazy and you don't even have to know what you're doing to succeed. Those of us who love a challenge play SoD. I have been a dungeon master and game master for many many years and I have run RPGs tournaments, play tested for the top companies and in my experience, having differences in classes and forcing strategic decision draws the real players. And if you don't like my opinion go back to WoW and cry.
I am not whining. I am saying that SK's draw a lot of aggro and are not as bad off as I keep hearing. I did fine holding aggro for the rogue, cleric and wizard, but the SK pulled it with his spear spells alone. That says something to me.
And Bud, yes I read what you said. All that I will say is that we have very different experiences. You don't believe me or think I am incompetent. I don't feel a need to try to prove anything to you.
And Bud, yes I read what you said. All that I will say is that we have very different experiences. You don't believe me or think I am incompetent. I don't feel a need to try to prove anything to you.
Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I don't want to say bad things but it is literally impossible that he is pulling aggro with spears alone, the spells have a terrible resist rate and an awful cooldown. Even if he used the last 3 of them he could not get anywhere with them unless hes attacking some mob that you have landed one aoe blind on and left it at that.
Either hes being untruthful about what he did or you are just a very bad paladin/the circumstances are not as they are described.
I try to avoid all of these shadowknight/paladin threads since they all seem to degenerate fast as hell into a class battle but in my opinion the biggest issue I have had on all 3 of the tank classes is simply:
Shadowknights do not achieve initial aggro fast enough. I have had the chance to play numerous tanks at all different ranges of gear and this is the one issue I have always seen. The recent addition of the hmal 6 man content only reinforced my concern of this.
The 6 man content revolves(atleast initially) around big initial mob pulls and while a paladin can unload aoe blind/stun/shout and a warrior can swap targets randomly and hope for ripostes to trigger foe lock to deal with this: A shadowknight has to rely on either dropping shout of agony or more realistically chain casting 1.5/2 second hate spells and hoping (Hey its 8 of them and they are probably fucking stacked by now so good luck procuring targets)to achieve initial aggro on mobs that can beat serious ass leading your healer to most likely being mollywopped. Sure you can aoe root them if you have someone available to do it.
Eitherway the point is initial aggro on multiple pulls is the most horrible shit I have to deal with and its an issue you can avoid by not bringing a shadowknight. I would love for content to stop revolving around many mobs at once.
i have just one question: why do people keep on bringing up this shout of agony business as a means to generate ae aggro? the recast is 30+ minutes and it doesnt generate that much aggro - meaning its not a reliable OR a constant source of aggro. the only use for it is emergencies and swarm-specific encounters where you know youre gonna have a ton of adds to deal with.
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
Something thats been over looked for aggro is the level difference. A 61 toon and a 65 toon next to a mob. By default the mob wants to kill the 61 toon over the 65. This is very easy to test out and very noticeable (get worse the bigger level gap thier is between toons. Take a level 40 toon into a 65 xp zone and see how hard it is to keep a mob off the 40th level toon LOL).
So in this case... the sk was getting a little outside help on his aggro.
To say nothing of when the SK starts droping hits fast and you get low hp aggro.
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Does Wave of Enfeeblement generate enough aggro that it at least gives you a chance to aggro multi's with terrors while the healer pops some heals on you? Or does it get resisted a lot?
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
It gets resisted a ton and generates very low agro even if it lands, so it's not a real option.
If an SK pulls a bunch of mobs and he does not single target each one and land a terror on each before the Cleric big heals, the cleric will pull aggro.
In my experience wave of enfeeblement usually doesn't create enough aggro to keep from a single heal. What it does do though, is get their initial attention so you can single target aggro each mob and hopefully do that before cleric has to heal.
My strategy is I tell the healer not to heal me until I hit 30 or 50 percent health and tell the group to hold off assist for about 10 seconds until I get aggro under control. I cast my wave of enfeeblement, then in the meantime I'm switching targets like a mad man trying to get them all under control before I settle down to a main assist target...
It's a ton of work and it's very easy to mess up, single targeting 5 mobs in 10 seconds while they are beating on you, stunning you, and are stacked, is crazy hard. This is where a Paladin clearly and dramatically outshines an SK
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Otcho
Dalayan Pious Diety
I neglected to mention wave of enfeeblement as its resist rate is abysmall and the aggro generated is pretty much awful. Most shadowknights that I know simply use it to supplement aggro when they already have the mobs. Using it to achieve initial aggro has not been a very successful endeavor for me ever(mostly due to what mythryn said)
Rouh
Dalayan Adventurer
A PBAOE AC Tap would be pretty pimp. something like -50AC to targets in radius, +50 AC to SK and group members. With just enough hate to help hold aggro on the SK while he switches targets to terror.
It could only be used once per fight more than likely, because the debuff would not overwrite itself, similar to WoE, so it couldn't be spammed for AE aggro, it would only work for the initial pull to give a buffer time to switch targets and manage each individually. It would also add a group buff recourse to allow the SK to contribute to the group in a new way. (currently the AC tap that is supposed to be group doesn't work)
Though, this still doesn't help Warriors in any way.
It could only be used once per fight more than likely, because the debuff would not overwrite itself, similar to WoE, so it couldn't be spammed for AE aggro, it would only work for the initial pull to give a buffer time to switch targets and manage each individually. It would also add a group buff recourse to allow the SK to contribute to the group in a new way. (currently the AC tap that is supposed to be group doesn't work)
Though, this still doesn't help Warriors in any way.