The Sk and Warrior EXP disadvantage.
- Thread starter Glamrin
- Start date
I don't remember the exact numbers, but I could do well over 1% of a tome in an hour demolishing EC. However, the money wasn't anywhere close to what you'd get for the same amount of time spent in HK with a paladin of the same tier.
I agree with this almost completely. The only qualms I'd have to offer is the fact that, even given the newish stance and aggro changes, SKs and warriors are still not balanced with a paladin's utility inside and outside raid scenarios.
SK's are probably one of the least desired classes in the game outside of raids (which they're mainly used for their Voice line)... unless I'm forgetting an entire zone filled with mega high MR, autoriposte mobs.
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Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
Yes you can, I was in a group with a Sk tanking playing my shaman and we averging 4 AAs a hour.
Sk
Nerco
Monk
Shaman
Cleric
bard
if I recall correctly, Sk did find holding aggro on the pulls which were at times up to 4-5 orcs.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
EC can be AE pulled just as well as any other zone unless you're doing giants. Even a zone with mobs spread out would see mobs gathered up by a puller before hand and brought to the group.
That said, Mang's zone design point has some truth to it, and that's why I've brought up that having tons of Undead in the expansion tips the scales even more in favor of Paladins, as that's their forte, which is fine and dandy as long as that forte doesn't stop other tanking classes from doing ther job (read: tanking) just as well.
Separating raid and group balance isn't a bad idea on paper, but it most likely would be in any incarnation to go live on the server. And with more and more 6-man raid content balanced around having raid drops, I don't think it's going to happen.
That said, Mang's zone design point has some truth to it, and that's why I've brought up that having tons of Undead in the expansion tips the scales even more in favor of Paladins, as that's their forte, which is fine and dandy as long as that forte doesn't stop other tanking classes from doing ther job (read: tanking) just as well.
Separating raid and group balance isn't a bad idea on paper, but it most likely would be in any incarnation to go live on the server. And with more and more 6-man raid content balanced around having raid drops, I don't think it's going to happen.
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
What type of Dungeon/Mob design do you feel would favor a SK/War vs a Pal for xp groups?
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
A zone with high MR mobs, or mobs with counterspell/reflect, as those hinder Paladins much more than SKs/Warriors. Mobs that cannot be pulled en massen due to abilities or sheer damage output. There are all sorts of ways to make encounters/zones difficult for the different tanks, although for the most part none of them really work. A knight can tank nearly anything a warrior can, and for the most part the opposite is true as well, regardless of special abilities/gimmicks. The real issue lies in the spell sets of the two knights, and the complete lack of diversity of the warrior, but I don't think those things can be changed without a huge impact, or very well thought out balancing. Just look at the Paladin changes. I could have told you when they were brought up that it wouldn't work as intended, because it wasn't fully thought out.
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
Wouldn't Counterspell/Reflect hurt Sks as well?
Looking over the SKs spells list, seems SK could use a major over haul on thier spells. Reading SoD discription of SKs also seems to indicate that prehaps SK should dip into some enchanter teritory as well.
Something that would help Sks in thier group role would be moving some of thier group buff abilities to the song slot. Having a few SK abilites that help out thier group require multiple buff slots seems rather counter productive. Buff slots are very valuable, and Sks buffs do not hold more value then buffs most groups will be sporting. Leaveing Sks with spells that they won't use in Group/Raid scene from day 1 of getting them.
With moving these lines, also expanding on some of them and making other better.
Vortex of Death is a prime example of this issue.
It requires a buff slot, and has stacking issues.
Moving this Buff to the song slot frees up the buff slot and removes its current stacking issue with other buffs.
Suddenly the spell looks a lot more intersting in both the group and Raid game... +35hps a tick +15 mana a Tick for 20 ticks with no stacking issue or buff slot issue. (other then if your playing with 2 bards)
Looking over the SKs spells list, seems SK could use a major over haul on thier spells. Reading SoD discription of SKs also seems to indicate that prehaps SK should dip into some enchanter teritory as well.
Something that would help Sks in thier group role would be moving some of thier group buff abilities to the song slot. Having a few SK abilites that help out thier group require multiple buff slots seems rather counter productive. Buff slots are very valuable, and Sks buffs do not hold more value then buffs most groups will be sporting. Leaveing Sks with spells that they won't use in Group/Raid scene from day 1 of getting them.
With moving these lines, also expanding on some of them and making other better.
Vortex of Death is a prime example of this issue.
It requires a buff slot, and has stacking issues.
Moving this Buff to the song slot frees up the buff slot and removes its current stacking issue with other buffs.
Suddenly the spell looks a lot more intersting in both the group and Raid game... +35hps a tick +15 mana a Tick for 20 ticks with no stacking issue or buff slot issue. (other then if your playing with 2 bards)
Rorne
The sad fish is a reactionary creature; an enemy o
You could have mobs that have their difficulty increased by an large margin when fighting more than one at a time. IE: Fighting two at once adds a +25% increase to their damage beyond what they normally do. This would also make CC more valuable.
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
Or mobs that cheals each others if more than 1 of them is engaged and awake. Making it necessary to split or mez.
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
It has been said before that no other buffs would be moved to the songslot. But yes, that and the small effects (compare 35hp/15 mana to how many hp a tick on a hot?) makes most sk taps worthless, and a no no on raids. Keeping to debuffs that only rebounds on yourself is the only way to go and shroud of nightmares (which actually generates enough agro that you can spare time from casting terror's to cast it) is pretty much the only one worth using (although that one is really good, but yes, warriors and paladins have it tough making room for buffs, an sk have it harder with a few selfbuffs and on top of that recourses to make room for.. basically this often makes them go unused).
To some degree mobs you cant do magic dmg to while fighting hurts an sk a lot more than a paladin since it makes lifetaps unusable and limits the sk from healing himself at all (although sk taps/heals are a lot weaker than paladin they still help in emergencies when casting them does not make you lose agro (ie on single targets, not on multiples)).
This should prob be its own thread but whatever.
Could assist SKs w/ an AE 300ish unresistable agro spell and make it a 3 min recast or so. Similar principle to foelock for AE. Basically just snap agro on a pull, not as much agro as foelock since it takes less effort but enough it place the mobs to throw the single agro spells off reasonable.
Could assist SKs w/ an AE 300ish unresistable agro spell and make it a 3 min recast or so. Similar principle to foelock for AE. Basically just snap agro on a pull, not as much agro as foelock since it takes less effort but enough it place the mobs to throw the single agro spells off reasonable.
stope21
Dalayan Elder
That would certainly help them, however I am not sure it is warrented as sk's already get 2 things aiding them in AE agro:
Shout of Agony
Mez Stance
Both are practically instant
SK's have a disgusting amount of utility, however I have seen very few actually play their class to their fullest potential.
Of the 2 classes (sk and war) I would say warriors could use some things to spice up their play. However, this is a problem with both raid and exp. They are a basic class, with little choice in their everyday routine.
Again, if you are looking for a harder zone, try First Ruins. If you do not have an sk, or a monk.. bring an enchanter. I remember playing kazimir back when fusion was an up and coming guild to great success in FR. The group was warrior, ench, cleric, bard, dps, dps, and it worked wonderfully. If a warrior is pulling, its a good idea to group up with monks (can off tank-and yes im aware that then the monk would probably be pulling), bards (can off tank/mez) and enchanters (can mez). In my experience, these groups run VERY smoothly. Ohh shit, you pull more than you should have... bam AE taunt every 10 minutes.. and you really suck if you fuck up that bad on pulls more frequently than once every 10 minutes.
Shout of Agony
Mez Stance
Both are practically instant
SK's have a disgusting amount of utility, however I have seen very few actually play their class to their fullest potential.
Of the 2 classes (sk and war) I would say warriors could use some things to spice up their play. However, this is a problem with both raid and exp. They are a basic class, with little choice in their everyday routine.
Again, if you are looking for a harder zone, try First Ruins. If you do not have an sk, or a monk.. bring an enchanter. I remember playing kazimir back when fusion was an up and coming guild to great success in FR. The group was warrior, ench, cleric, bard, dps, dps, and it worked wonderfully. If a warrior is pulling, its a good idea to group up with monks (can off tank-and yes im aware that then the monk would probably be pulling), bards (can off tank/mez) and enchanters (can mez). In my experience, these groups run VERY smoothly. Ohh shit, you pull more than you should have... bam AE taunt every 10 minutes.. and you really suck if you fuck up that bad on pulls more frequently than once every 10 minutes.
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gtoo
THE NEMESIS
how about slightly increasing the recast on ae blinds/stuns for pallies, or lowering the resist adjust for the spells, forcing them to occasionally cast a single target blind or stun
sk's could get a reactive agro spell, kind of like a damage shield, where a mob hitting them would increase its own agro on the sk for a couple of ticks, something like 100, 300, 500 hate each successive hit per mob. enough that the mob would stay on the sk through heals but you would need to throw terrors on it in order to keep it on you if others are dpsing
possibly giving warriors a huge stamina draining whirlwind stance similar to what monks have, allowing them to foelock multiple mobs without having to be a pro targetter
sk's could get a reactive agro spell, kind of like a damage shield, where a mob hitting them would increase its own agro on the sk for a couple of ticks, something like 100, 300, 500 hate each successive hit per mob. enough that the mob would stay on the sk through heals but you would need to throw terrors on it in order to keep it on you if others are dpsing
possibly giving warriors a huge stamina draining whirlwind stance similar to what monks have, allowing them to foelock multiple mobs without having to be a pro targetter
Spell: Wave of Light
From SoDWiki
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Classes: PAL(62)
Mana cost: 145 Range: 0 Spell skill: Divination
Cast time: 1 seconds AE radius: 60 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time:25 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: -75
Duration: 2 ticks Target type: Point Blank AoE
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Spell:_Wave_of_Light
Spell: Word of the Crusader
From SoDWiki
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Classes: PAL(63)
Mana cost: 305 Range: 0 Spell skill: Evocation
Cast time: 2 seconds AE radius: 25 Resist type: Magic
Recharge time:32 seconds AE duration: N/A Resist adjust: 0
Duration: N/A Target type: Point Blank AoE Restrictions: none
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Spell:_Word_of_the_Crusader
a paladin who doesnt use single target to supplement aes does not get to keep aggro for long, unless hes exping with lower tiered toons. also hes just lame
Manguadi
Dalayan Beginner
I have to agree with vart here a paladin not using single target spells is doing something wrong. Also, your suggestions are all about ways those classes could generate aggro without doing anything. If a warrior and sk should get more ae aggro, they should have to work for it.
Glamrin
Staff Emeritus
Nerfing paladin ae's wouldnt really help anything, that would just imbalance them towards nontank classes with good ac/hp/avoidance.
It isnt really an issue having to target multiple mobs and cast single target agro on them. The issue is that even doing so as soon as it refreshes (or in beginning using aa, since then no refresh (but cant be recast on same mob since its active on mob for a few tics). The issue is that agro gained that way isnt enough to keep agro from rains and ae's from groupmembers on all mobs. Sure when soloing its easy to grab agro on 20 mobs in an easy zone and keep that from your box druid or shaman during heals and dmg... However it puts a lot of demands, not only on the tank, but on the people playing all the other characters.. Thus when it's you on the other char its possible to keep agro. when it isnt, you lose agro constantly, and lost agro on one mob, means you have to try and regain it, meaning you lose agro on all the other ones because recasts and single target casts are too slow cast and too little agro.
ie thus nerfing paladin's would probably also affect mage's negatively. Ie the paladin doesnt need a nerf, the sk needs a huge upgrade or more zones needs to be designed with the sk in mind (probably both). Giving an ae stance was one suggestion. Upp'ing single target agro on aa and spells or shortening cast time might be another possible solution I suppose.. Designing new group content with sk's especially (and warrior) tanks more in mind is another good solution. More than one measure is probably necessary though.
Instead of arguing about giving SKs AoE agro so they can compete with paladins or getting more hard zones (which I am sure will happen with Ikisith), why not fight for better exp coming off zones that are already anti-AoE such as Emberflow, FR, the Deep, etc?
Make the exp comparable to AoE Highkeep. (And trust me, as a paladin, HHK/Cata get old VERY fast)
Make the exp comparable to AoE Highkeep. (And trust me, as a paladin, HHK/Cata get old VERY fast)
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emberflow isnt really an xp zone, its more of a 6man raid zone imo. xp/kill is nice but theyre pretty hard and take long to kill/pull. deep FR is nice, but you would need a monk and/or chanter for it. no comment on the deep as i havent been there since changes.
ps if you find cata old and boring go there with minlas and laugh as he fails at tanking and instead cybers the group with his swedish goodies =)
You can AE every single part of FR, Have tanked 5-6 Bloodfires myself on Miffane. And the Deep /shrug can Ae it as well ezpz and is very good exp.