Taraztu's Infernal Trap

[stope21]

This post is in regards to: http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php?topic=14537.0.
Specifically, the quotes listed below.

As a bonus, Taraztu's Infernal Trap will be seeing a boost next patch :toot:

From main page:
-Upgraded Taraztu's Infernal Trap. It now works on root immune mobs, sports a recast similar to the paladin spell, does far more damage, is harder to resist, lasts half as long, and costs less mana. -thinkmeats


The spell does indeed do more dmg, and does last half as long. It also appears to be resisted less.

The spell does not however cost less mana -- it appears to cost far more.

The other issue w/ the spell is the utility of the spell, especially in comparison to the pally spell, Taraztu's Healing Flames, which drops from the same camp. It is useless or next to useless, or inferior for the following reasons.

1) The problem w/ rooting otherwise unrootable mobs.
Okay, so it works on root immune mobs (not sure if this means it will disregard mobs' inability to be rooted, but lets say it does). Well lets see, most root immune mobs also summon. So whats this going to do: you nuke/root the normally unrootable mob, its just gunna summon your ass and beat you down.

2) The DD compared to other DD's. Okay, It does 1950 dmg for 450 mana at -50 FR. Thats 4.33 dmg/mana@-50FR. Lets compare that to the lvl 60 spell, Ice Spear of Solist, which is buyable from NPC Merchants which does 1200 dmg for 300 mana at -10 CR. Thats 4.00dmg/mana@-10CR. The overall difference: 8.35% more dmg/mana for at -40 greater resist rate for one single cast. Its helpful, but very very marginal. It will net you a total gain of 33.4 dmg more once a fight (pre mods). Even if that number is doubled for the chance of critting, focus effects, and cunning to 68 dmg and we'll give it a bonus of 50% for being less likely to be resisted. We'll call it 100 dmg. That is still grossly insnignificant.

It took me roughly 20 hours to camp this, with a group of raid geared toons. 20 hours is not worth 100 more dmg. Keep in mind this is being compared to a spell that you not only can u buy, but it is also the least efficient non-lure type 60+ nuke.

In short if you don't want to follow my logic and want another way to look at it is: It is less efficient then any comparable (non RRR/lure) 60-65 spell other then Ice Spear of Solist. Furthermore, when compared to Ice Spear, it is insignificantly better then Ice Spear.

3) The DD compared to Taraztu's Healing flames.
Taraztu healing flames heals for 1005 base for 50 mana, Has a 0.5 second cast time and 5.0 minute racast
Blessing of Malath heals for 875 base for 150 mana, Has a 2.0 second cast time and 0.5 minute recast

So, Healing flames casts 4 times faster and heals for 15% more, it also flaunts 3 times less mana consumed. The combination of the spell having a .5 second cast time and healing for more then the previous self only "quick" heal make it the perfect "OH SHIT HEAL" spell.

Thus when comparing Taraztu's Healing Flames to Taraztu's Infernal Trap: Taraztu's Infernal Trap should in my opinion have some nice (and usefull effect). Any paladan should have Taraztu's Healing Flames, wizards on the other hand laugh at the utility of their spell.

I would recommend an "OH SHIT DPS" effect that is also mana effecient as to make it comparable to the pally spell. Application of this could be done as a quick casting nuke that is either hard to resist or unresistable that does massive dmg (a once every 5 minutes super RRR). I'll even recommend a name: Taraztu's Infernal Blast.

 

[Thinkmeats]

The spell does not however cost less mana -- it appears to cost far more.

It should cost 450. If it costs more, buglist it, but I'm pretty sure it costs 450.

1) The problem w/ rooting otherwise unrootable mobs.
Okay, so it works on root immune mobs (not sure if this means it will disregard mobs' inability to be rooted, but lets say it does). Well lets see, most root immune mobs also summon. So whats this going to do: you nuke/root the normally unrootable mob, its just gunna summon your ass and beat you down.

Lol what. Also it doesn't root the root-immune mob, it just damages them.

words

This is a pretty sound argument for lowering the mana cost of T trap. The rest, though, would either make the spell useless or a flavorless dps boost that every character ever would need. Lightning-quick emergency heal isn't the same sort of thing as lightning-quick meganuke; the nuke would just be extra dps with no downside to anyone who had it, and would elevate T. Trap to the realm of "must-have" for raid wizards.

But, again, I could definitely see lowering the mana cost on T. Trap.

 

[stope21]

It should cost 450. If it costs more, buglist it, but I'm pretty sure it costs 450.

It does indeed cost 450 mana, you said it should cost less mana [then before] which instead it got increased in mana then before.

Lol what. Also it doesn't root the root-immune mob, it just damages them.

I wasnt sure if it did or didnt, I stated that in the post and made case for the spell being changed regardless if it did or didnt.

Lightning-quick emergency heal isn't the same sort of thing as lightning-quick meganuke; the nuke would just be extra dps with no downside to anyone who had it, and would elevate T. Trap to the realm of "must-have" for raid wizards.

Because the healing flames isnt a must have for pallys? When tanking (as pallys are primarily a tanking class), it gives me a near-instant self patch -- that is a must have in my opinion.

I agree its not fair to have the spell be useful on every encounter and i think that was the point you were ultimatly getting at. This is because not every encounter utilizes a 2nd tank. So make the spell so that not every encounter can utilize the wiz spell. This would work perfectly as not every encounter requires burst dps, but for the some that do you get a nice spell to use.

This is why i proposed it to be changed to a quick nuke that when used is definatly great to have. The downside would be that it is slightly less mana effeceint then the average wizard dps spell. You dont get to use it every encounter, but when you hit it, its great!

 

[Thinkmeats]

stuff

Without getting into omg stratz, that would be pretty overpowered. I'll see about changing it some, but it won't be dramatic--it will probably just cost less mana and maybe cast at 1.0 instead of 1.5.

 

[stope21]

Ya, u dont gotta make it like wtf omg insta dps.. but you do have to admit a self patch from a pally can save your entire raid from wiping I was hoping for something comparable for the wizard version.

Also keep in mind if you're dpsing multiple lower hp adds, w/o getting too deep into strats, a wizard large fast nuke would have to be controlled so that they dont get agro and get their shoes knocked off, thus limiting the applicability of the spell.

In short you'd be just as well off casting a big long cast nuke like relic or archaic and the tank builds agro as the spell is being cast.

 

[Mythryn]

What about changing the root portion into a short duration (1, 2 ticks tops) debuff that increases spell damage dealt to that mob by a small percent (~2%)

 

[stope21]

-nt

 

[Dzillon]

I undestand why stope was worried about the rooting, the description of the change also made me think that it'd root unrootable mobs ; otherwise yeah omg aggro & summon. I guess it's made so to avoid the problem like the old necro curse that wouldn't land if mob was unsnareable.
Now that's it's clear, the numbers you tossed don't make it look bad and the gain is no way "marginal". 40 more adj modifier, better dmg/mana, and don't forget it's a 57 spell, which means - until you stop fizzling - that you will fizzle it less (and fizzling takes some mana iirc). I'm no expert in wiz matters but I'm convinced its still a very good situational spell, although the root component has to be used carefully in usual groups. And I don't see how you can compare it to the Paladin spell...

 

[stope21]

I undestand why stope was worried about the rooting, the description of the change also made me think that it'd root unrootable mobs ; otherwise yeah omg aggro & summon. I guess it's made so to avoid the problem like the old necro curse that wouldn't land if mob was unsnareable.
Now that's it's clear, the numbers you tossed don't make it look bad and the gain is no way "marginal". 40 more adj modifier, better dmg/mana, and don't forget it's a 57 spell, which means - until you stop fizzling - that you will fizzle it less (and fizzling takes some mana iirc). I'm no expert in wiz matters but I'm convinced its still a very good situational spell, although the root component has to be used carefully in usual groups. And I don't see how you can compare it to the Paladin spell...

Ice spear of solist is the worst spell in terms of dmg/mana. Saying that the taraztu dd doesnt look bad when compared to solist is like saying a pinto doesn't look bad compared to a jalopy. Furthermore, the taraztu spell is a long and not easy camp -- where the solist is buyable off of a merchant!
In terms of difficulty of access to this spell -- a group capable of camping this spell is also capable or near capable of receiving ancients. Want to compare this spell to the ancient wizard nuke? Ancient: 1200 dmg, 230 mana -10 CR. Thats 5.22 dmg/mana yet taraztu is 4.33 rendering it useless.

By comparing it to the pally spell, im saying that the pally spell is used in many many situations and i'm not saying that it is overpowered. It is a decent little spell and its application is a nice peice of content. It has its uses any time the pally is tanking. So for raids, thats some of the time (as we use our pally for AE and 2nd tank), and for groups, where the pally is tanking, all of the time. The wizard spell on the other hand is used on raids -- never, and in groups -- never. Why is it never used? It just isn't efficient.

Until it is unfizzleable: Although relevant, its a very small aspect of the spell and once a wizard does indeed become unfizzeable it doesn't exist at all.

All i'm asking for is that the spell be made so that it is actually useful.

 

[Syalara]

Personally, i suggest reverting it to its previous, original, useless state till people stop whining about what is obviously an improvement.

 

[stope21]

Without getting into omg stratz, that would be pretty overpowered. I'll see about changing it some, but it won't be dramatic--it will probably just cost less mana and maybe cast at 1.0 instead of 1.5.

I think this is fair. Also keep in mind in some of these strats, there is the possibility the root will land and the mobs then summon. So the times where it would be good for the dd you may not even be able to use it because of the issues that will arise from the root. I'd rather see the spell just do the dd instead of being possibly foiled by the root addition. But if it is going to stay w/ a root addition i'd hope that the times where it would be applicable that it is definitely worthwhile to use.

 

[stope21]

Personally, i suggest reverting it to its previous, original, useless state till people stop whining about what is obviously an improvement.

Because discussing the utility of a spell is whining? Thanks for crapping up a well thought out thread while I attempt to better the game by offering some insight on a spell.

Why don't you use your brain rather then your ass to maybe state why you disagree with me?

 

[Syalara]

No, you ARE whining. You camped it for 20 hours...booohooo. You think it should be better...boohoooo. You have no reason to think it should be better other then A) you think the pally spell is cooler B) You spent 20 hours camping it with an overkill force

What else did you have to say? The ancient nuke makes it worthless?...well you are wrong (hi2u resist mod...oh and hi2u shitty recast on ancient which is same as shitty recast on Soloist.)

ALL 60-65 single target wizard nukes are horrible until you get relic/archaic, with the Ancient nuke being the only exception as far as efficiency goes.

I dont know what you expect this spell to be? It gives you little extra damage when you need it with a nice handy dandy resist mod.


PS- You underestimate how useful and how strong a -50 resist mod is. No spell w/ that kind of mod should be efficient.

 

[Spiritplx]

This spell shouldn't be any better or any worse than normal single target nukes. It should be more situational, which I think it is. Is it so situational that it is never used, though? Not sure how many wizards keep this up or use it in exp. groups or on raids, but if the number ~0, then I think a slight tweak would be in line. I think Stope was just asking for a small adjustment, and I think Thinkmeats is going to change it, making it a bit more usable.

Suggesting something be changed if it seems uselss/too situational is not a bad idea. The worst that is going to happen is the Devs say no and you get flamed a little on the forums. Seems like a decent trade off if it does get changed.

 

[Syalara]

Why would it not be used as is? Its a 57 spell being compared to 60's and even an Ancient. This spell wasnt intended to become a new full time addition to every wizards default spell lineup afaik.

It is more dmg and is more efficient then Lure of Ice but has much longer recast and much lesser resist mod.......fine tradeoffs when dmg is needed NOW on non insanely resistant mobs and you can get it 3 levels earlier.

It has more damage then Soloist, is less efficient, but with a stronger resist mod and much longer recast......fine tradeoffs and you can get it three levels sooner.

It has more damage then Ancient, is less efficient, but with a stronger resist mod and much longer recast....fine tradeoffs tho not as attractive due to the Ancient being an ancient...still...3 levels.


I am not opposed to tweaking the spell abit, but the OP just struck me wrong off the bat when this spell was compared to a paladin spell (WTF) and he got all weepy eyed about the camp.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Just a note for people using the spell's level as part of the argument... While it's a level 57 spell, unless you have some much higher level friends, this spell is NOT obtainable at that level. A group of non-twinked, newly-65s would have a lot of trouble with this mob.

 

[stope21]

No, you ARE whining. You camped it for 20 hours...booohooo. You think it should be better...boohoooo.

I am not opposed to tweaking the spell abit, but the OP just struck me wrong off the bat when this spell was compared to a paladin spell (WTF) and he got all weepy eyed about the camp.

It took me roughly 20 hours to camp this, with a group of raid geared toons. 20 hours is not worth 100 more dmg.

Weepy eyed? I stated 20 hours isn't worth 100 more dmg. You're either 12 years old or a retard.

With that being said:
QUIT SHITTING UP MY THREAD WITH YOUR STUPID DRAMA, POST FACTS -- BE LOGICAL. I don't have time to deal w/ idiocy.


Lets see what else you are terribly overlooking:

What else did you have to say? The ancient nuke makes it worthless?...well you are wrong (hi2u resist mod...oh and hi2u shitty recast on ancient which is same as shitty recast on Soloist.)

You say that ancient is worse then taraztu's partly because of the "shitty recast." Are you aware that taraztu has a 5 minute recast? Lets compare: Ancient: 13 second recast, Taraztu: 300 second recast. Thats 23 times longer recast.

ALL 60-65 single target wizard nukes are horrible until you get relic/archaic, with the Ancient nuke being the only exception as far as efficiency goes.

You obviously have little understanding of how to play a wizard well. This thread is about a specific spell and i'm not going to waste any more time or effort dealing w/ your illogical and/or ill informed statements. You're second post will go unanswered.

Thank you for your input. I disagree with your statements, your immature name calling is unappreciated and destructive to this post.

 

[stope21]

Just a note for people using the spell's level as part of the argument... While it's a level 57 spell, unless you have some much higher level friends, this spell is NOT obtainable at that level. A group of non-twinked, newly-65s would have a lot of trouble with this mob.

Agreed.

 

[Goatface]

Just a note for people using the spell's level as part of the argument... While it's a level 57 spell, unless you have some much higher level friends, this spell is NOT obtainable at that level. A group of non-twinked, newly-65s would have a lot of trouble with this mob.

i have alway wondered about why a level 57 spells drop in that area, might aswell make it a 60+ spell and boost it some

 

[Spiritplx]

i have alway wondered about why a level 57 spells drop in that area, might aswell make it a 60+ spell and boost it some

I guess it is the same reason most people get their ancients after they have already hit level 65. Spell level shouldn't play a huge part into this as most situational spells (invis, lev, shadow step, dispel, etc.) are all lower levels, but are used post 65. The level of a spell is basically meaningless save for the fizzle factor.