Struggling pet classes

I like Zaelas idea, I do feel scared of a bunch of wild pets running around town with Animation weaps though ;)

I see no reason why Zaleas idea couldnt be combined with tomes, the higher up you go, the less tomes you have to put exp into and at early stages for lower tiers your pet gets eaten cus of low resists and so on. To be able to get a stronger pet, by working for it is something I would like a lot.

Just out of curiosity why does ppl think more pet tomes isnt a good complement? They are optional for any class to do and offers a reward for the chars that do them. Adding a second rank on the tomes that are out there for pets and a new mitigation tome would probably be really nice.
 
@Agik: Second ranks of tomes (even third, and fourth) is fine, but it shouldn't be the only recourse to fix the problem. Tomes don't help fresh 65's or lower levels, as they can't do them yet, but their pets still need help. I've been 65 a long time, but I still remember the times it was tough during leveling, because the old pet had turned light blue. These ideas being floated help pet classes at all levels, not just high tier tome-fillers.
 
I like the idea of permanent pet gear! The beastlord murk spell would probably need to be changed as well for the same reason the mage pet spell would.

Pet inadequacy is actually a problem that begins at level 28 for beastlords, then shows up again at level 37, then again at level 46ish. I really really liked Zaela's idea of having a single pet that scales with the level and gear of its owner, and was very disappointed to see it trashed sight unseen, since it solved so many of these issues rather neatly. If there was a way to incorporate that part into this as well, I think we'd be closer to an ideal solution.
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I agree, the two systems together would help solve most (if not all) of the scalability issues for pet classes.
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Voicing my support for both of these proposed changes.
 
Just out of curiosity why does ppl think more pet tomes isnt a good complement? They are optional for any class to do and offers a reward for the chars that do them. Adding a second rank on the tomes that are out there for pets and a new mitigation tome would probably be really nice.
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Well let me put it this way.

If I was to propose that paladins got 70% of the benefit that warriors got for doing the same tomes, but then paladins could recover this missing 30% by doing a host of extra tomes, then you would think that this was totally bonkers and totally unfair.

Strangely, however, if you say Mages get 70% of the benefit that wizards get from doing the same tomes and that they should make up the difference by doing extra (pet) tomes everyone thinks "what a wonderful idea".

Indeed it so wonderful that when these extra tomes still do not make up the shortfall compared to a wizard, the obvious answer is a host of yet more tomes.
 
Bridger said:
Well let me put it this way.

If I was to propose that paladins got 70% of the benefit that warriors got for doing the same tomes, but then paladins could recover this missing 30% by doing a host of extra tomes, then you would think that this was totally bonkers and totally unfair.

Strangely, however, if you say Mages get 70% of the benefit that wizards get from doing the same tomes and that they should make up the difference by doing extra (pet) tomes everyone thinks "what a wonderful idea".

Indeed it so wonderful that when these extra tomes still do not make up the shortfall compared to a wizard, the obvious answer is a host of yet more tomes.
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You must have missed the following points:
  • Mages have 3 lines of class tomes vs. functionally one for wizards with the resist change.
  • Mages get a huge DPS increase from their class tomes (Crit increase for rains, ramp/flurry/ww/db for pet), where wizards get something that gives them mana back on kills, i.e. nice for xp, mostly useless on raids.
  • Mages got a spell that helps with pet survivability (spectral silks), where everyone else got nothing. Granted, these aren't limited to just mage pets.
  • There are all those new and nice pet weapons that can be found in random places in ikisith, most prominent in citadel. Magepets benefit a LOT from them, wizard pets, they get nothing but a few HP/resists outta there.
  • Last but not least, there is a whole set of tomes JUST to boost pets, and they are fast like hell to finish.

tl;dr

I do not know where you got your ideas, but they are terrible to the point where it makes my head hurt.
 
Mages have 3 lines of class tomes vs. functionally one for wizards with the resist change.
Mages get a huge DPS increase from their class tomes (Crit increase for rains, ramp/flurry/ww/db for pet), where wizards get something that gives them mana back on kills, i.e. nice for xp, mostly useless on raids.
Mages got a spell that helps with pet survivability (spectral silks), where everyone else got nothing. Granted, these aren't limited to just mage pets.
There are all those new and nice pet weapons that can be found in random places in ikisith, most prominent in citadel. Magepets benefit a LOT from them, wizard pets, they get nothing but a few HP/resists outta there.
Last but not least, there is a whole set of tomes JUST to boost pets, and they are fast like hell to finish
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No - I have not missed ANY of those points

The situation of 3 versus 1 class tomes is only temporary.
In any case one of those gives the increase crit on rains which should always have been there and the another giving the increased resist/mana recovery is almost useless

The pet damage increase is PRECISELY the point I am making.
To get the overall damage increase to scale up to that other classes get you have to do these extra tomes.

While improved gear as you level up improve both the damage dealing and survivability of 100%
of most characters they only improve 70% of the overall mage character. So the pet silk is an irrelevance since the pet SHOULD scale up with the scaling of the character in general.

So it is YOU that is missing the point here.

To scale up the damage from say T4 to T11 a mage has to scale up the damage for the caster portion for which it has to obtain roughly the same gear and do the same tomes as a wizard, then it has to do EXTRA tomes to scale up the pet damage. (Being screwed on crits on rains means that the caster portion of a mage does not scale up as a wizard does)

To scale up the survivability of the mage he has to do the same tomes and obtain the same gear as a wizard for the caster portion then has to do extra tomes, obtain the Runic 2 spell and still then has a pet which is woefully inadequate in the survivability stakes.
 
Bridger said:
While improved gear as you level up improve both the damage dealing and survivability of 100%
of most characters they only improve 70% of the overall mage character. So the pet silk is an irrelevance since the pet SHOULD scale up with the scaling of the character in general.
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Guess again. For one, there are pet foci who increase the survivability and damage of pets over the tiers - not as much as melees increase, I will give you that, but it is there.
Second, last time I checked, mages and wizards are getting the exact same gear throughout every tier, and up to ikisith, the exact same tomes.
Third, one of the points you balantly ignored in my last post: pet weapons. They help with both pet DPS and HP/resists.
Fourth, last time I checked, mages need to worry about 2 elements only (fire and magic), where wizards need 3 of them (cold, magic, fire) - so much to mages need to do more tomes for the same ammount of scaling, looks like the opposite to me right there!
Fifth, as you very well noticed, in ikisith, mages get class tomes that increase their DPS, wizards not. So one could argue that mages scale even better there.
Sixth, even in its reduced form, mage runic2 (a spell you have yet to obtain yourself!) shits all over wizard runic2 - just ask around hom often a mage has his runic2 up, and ask how often a wizard uses his runic2. So much for wich class scales better.
So it is YOU that is missing the point here.

Do I think that the change to BST/MAG runic2 pets was uncalled for? yes
Do I think that Zaelas suggested changes about pet inventory scaling would be an even better fix then just slapping giant ammounts of HP on runic2 pets? Hell yes!
Do I think that you are yet again trying to kill something fun and exciting with your general negativity and your distorted perception of reality where everybody seems to be out ot nerf you? Take it as a given!

tl;dr

Zaela please please PLEASE just ignore Zoroth (Bridger) and implement the pet gear staying with pets and scaling over the tiers!
 
Personally I do not think pet damage through the tiers is an issue. At various intervals we get things that increase our/pet dps. Start raiding get companion strength and as you raid that directly scales. Reach tier 4-7 get relic pet. A few tiers later it's silks and CoP. After that we get runic 1 and pet tomes. Then finally 3-4 tiers later we get runic 2. I think the dps is handled fine it is the survibebility that I have had issues with. Lower end raiding the ae's were pretty brutal but with the heal change it is much more manageable. Only a few fights could be troubling for instance a WW mob and the casters can outrage the WW so only pets in the group take the damage. It is really only the higher end where I see an issue. Where a bad WW round or if pet pulls aggro it will die before you can do anything. The large hp buffer was nice before but I think with the 2 changes proposed could greatly help this out as well as increase survibebility all around through the tiers.

Also, Bridger we are mages not wizards, if you want big dick dps roll the 1 dimensional class of wizard or rogue. I knew when I rolled a Mage I would not top the dps chart but be steady consiststant reliable middle of the pack dps. Not every shared time will and should affect all classes equally. Wizards get more from the crit tomes, but we get more from cop. It is all trade offs.

Side note this is from a mages perspective I know beast lords have different shortcomings.
 
Personally I do not think pet damage through the tiers is an issue
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I agree with you absolutely on this.

The point I was making is that this on tier pet damage is only obtained by doing extra tomes (and obtaining the upgraded pet weapons).

The improvement in pet survivabilty only comes after also doing extra tomes and obtaining Runic2. Even then it is inadequate.

Again I believe we are in agreement.

The level of mage damage is NOT an issue.
 
I don't think you play a Bst, Runic 2 Bst pet hits maybe 25-40(this is on the high end of the curve sometimes it's as low as 10 dps more) more dps then the level 63 spell. That is correct scaling to you? in 12 tiers my pet essentially gains 10-40 more dps? I don't see this as being good scaling.
 
Bridger said:
I agree with you absolutely on this.

The point I was making is that this on tier pet damage is only obtained by doing extra tomes (and obtaining the upgraded pet weapons).

The improvement in pet survivabilty only comes after also doing extra tomes and obtaining Runic2. Even then it is inadequate.

Again I believe we are in agreement.

The level of mage damage is NOT an issue.
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can you pls STOP whining over things you dont have and w8 till you get the stuff and test it !!
as Shimone says the dps from Mag pets is not the problem
the survibebility is it on the tier you get the runic 2 pet ther are figts wen you pet gets one shoted and you cant do any thing to save it from it it dies to fast
 
Marza said:
Beastlord pet damage is honestly low, especially in the later tiers.
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I've seen beast runic 2 pets doing ~150 DPS which I'd agree is low but I think that was with the heal proc rather than the DD one. Any idea how big of a difference that would make?
 
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