Stormkeep vs DHK augs flaw in logic

[robopirateninja]

I'm puzzled why you assume this is redoable when the absolute majority of quests are not redoable.

You guys can argue about "logic" until you're blue in the face, but this is a gameplay decision, and you're the one making the assumption that a quest can be redone when this is rarely the case.

I'm puzzled about why we should assume that it is NOT redoable when all of the other quests from those NPCs involving that faction are, and why there is no indication whatsoever that this quest is different.

it's perfectly reasonable to have to lock down your faction before you can get the biggest prize.

It certainly would be, if this was mentioned in the quest anywhere, or if at any time the player made a decision to "lock" themselves into one faction or the other.

Can you seriously show me one place that this information was published ANYWHERE before the creation of this thread, or maybe Latten's similar thread linked above? (Also in that thread gm-tink seemed previously unaware that these quests are one-time only, and she's staff, for Chrissake)

 

[Solo]

This is a non repeatable quest for a reason - and they really are the same quest.

The point of the factioning system in the north is to pick one or the other side. Because of that switching is discouraged - and this is one of the big factors of that discouragement.

As Wiz said - this aint changing. It is completely logical that after you kill the person giving a quest in another quest that you can not do the opposite. And even if it was not logical it is a game play decision that has a purpose.

Whether or not Wiz wants to change the quest text is his call but to be honest thinking that a quest like this is repeatable is a hell of an assumption.

this change is new to me as well for in the past. on keirga i got the dragons aug and lost it due to guild faction swap and then got giants aug afterwards eventually.
unfortunately due to a guildie mishap i lost the giant one as well...

2+2 = 3 if both of the above quotes are true.







..tbh, There is nothing in-game via text or lore to lead us to believe either way. Why would any player assume you can or cant change factions and get the new aug?


If it was in the quest text or lore anywhere that if you changed factions you would not receive the new factions highest honor “the aug” it would eliminate any doubt and make it clear how both quests work. There is not a problem with finding out we need something clarified and then asking for fairness via returning the old aug or allowing Kazimir to turn in for the new aug.

In hindsight Kazimir could have petitioned or asked on the forms before he switched factions but he did not have a reason to because there was not a precedent for concern about these quests.

 

[Tyvec-a-tron]

I'm puzzled why you assume this is redoable when the absolute majority of quests are not redoable.

You guys can argue about "logic" until you're blue in the face, but this is a gameplay decision, and you're the one making the assumption that a quest can be redone when this is rarely the case.

I've never said you should never be allowed to switch faction, the "WHY SHOULD YOU BE ABLE TO GET ALLY AGAIN WHEN YOU CANT GET THE GEMSTONE AGAIN BAAARGH" is ridiculous. The gemstone is the end-all of the dragon/giant faction rewards, it's perfectly reasonable to have to lock down your faction before you can get the biggest prize.

Most people are making this assumption because this is not the same quest. It isn't. It's a very similar quest with a different quest giver, mob to kill, item to turn in, faction to have, etc.. The reason it's assumed doable (as opposed to redoable) is because the person has never done the quest. Even if you consider it one quest, it's pretty clear that the ambiguous nature of the connection between these quests needs looking at. The confusion in this thread is indicative enough of that.

I'll agree that it's reasonable that someone should have to lock down their faction to receive the augment, assuming that the staff doesn't want people changing factions. Woldaff pointed out that you all have a system of checks in place that affect the decision, but no one on the server knows about it. How can anyone assume you have to lock down your faction for anything when equally high honors from said faction (quest armor, gate amulet) are repeatedly attainable? The staff has never given any indication that this augment quest should only be completed once you're permanently set in your faction, and you're asking a lot from people to assume that fact. I understand your reasoning, but it has to be made apparent to the player base before they go and attempt something they have no reason to doubt would function. I'll ask again- are the people that have tried to turn this augment in on the other side (or cannot comprehend why you couldn't do so) ignorant and illogical?

 

[Enlityn3]

I'm puzzled why you assume this is redoable when the absolute majority of quests are not redoable.

The biggest problem lies not in the fact that you're suggesting players shouldn't be able to redo the quest, but the fact that there is no warning against switching factions. Players have every reason, infact, to believe that they CAN switch factions without penalty. Why, you ask?

There are other, similar faction bound quests along the exact same factions, all of which are redo-able and allow the player to switch factions when they choose. With these quests, which fall in a very similar category to the ones in question, you're setting precedence for players to expect. Without a warning, players have no reason to believe they shouldn't be able to switch factions or re-receive the reward if they earn their same faction back.

It is reasonable that players shouldn't be able to switch factions and receive another aug if that is what the dev team wants. But, and this is a big but, you've got to tell the players that before they screw themselves over for no reason.

 

[Trust And Fall]

I'm having a difficult time understanding why if this many people are responding to this thread in a way that is indicative of a change being "needed" or requested, a simple line of text cant be implemented.

Whether or not Wiz wants to change the quest text is his call but to be honest thinking that a quest like this is repeatable is a hell of an assumption.

I think it'd be even more of an assumption to think that it was NOT possible to switch factions.

As its been stated, you can switch factions and get the port necklace, faction bound items, etc.

If I walked into Athica and I was ally, and I killed Samantha the Assistant taking me down to Kindly, could I not get back to ally by turning in an elds neck to her and request my port necklace again? If so, why is this dhk vs. sk quest the only quest that seems to follow this entire logic of "You killed a factions leader, you cant switch now"?

No where else in the game really is this the case, that if you kill a quest giver you cannot faction back and still get/complete a quest for them. Why wouldn't people assume it was possible to switch if 99% of game play indicates that there would be no issue.

I think it's perfectly acceptable for the quest not to be repeatable, or possible to switch factions for the augment, but not if there is no warning relayed to the player base that this is the case. opposite of every other quest in the game I personally know of.

Also there are many things in this thread still not addressed. One being that Keirga seems to have switched faction and obtained the 2 separate augments, the other being the general lack of knowledge to the public. If a game master is completely unaware of this game design (as stated in this post), I think it is safe to think that the player base in unaware as well.

 

[Kazimir]

so I have refrained from posting since my post is obviously biased. The general consensus is that no one except for like 4 gm/devs, have any knowledge of this policy thats isn't posted anywhere. This may have been known like said when the quest was put in, but i'm pretty sure that was before I started 2.5 years ago. Given the massive time laps since then i feel that the yellow warning text should be put in and i would tend to agree that there should be the ability to get the old aug back or new for anyone screwed by lack there of knowing.

 

[eqjenius]

I was boxing a guild mate's character to work on a Thurg bounty in WW in the middle of the night, of course without thinking to check her faction aug ahead of time. Zoned out, saw the "aug has crumbled to dust" emote, and felt like the biggest asshole in the world. A few guildies and I headed to SE to start working on getting her faction back up so I can one day find Rymaz up and undo the damage I did, when someone mentioned that this quest can't be repeated, which this thread seems to confirm.

I suppose there's been no official change of position when it comes to these augs, but I thought I'd point out that there's one more person negatively affected by the lack of repeatability of this quest, through no fault of her own and due only to my negligence.

If you loot a lore quest item on the wrong character while boxing, staff position is that it won't be transferred for you, but at least that can be potentially fixed one day. Faction with cities can also be fixed if you put in the effort. Gate clickies can also be reattained. AFAIK, the storm/scale augs are the only faction items in SoD that you can't fix if some idiot ruins your faction.

It seems unfair to indefinitely punish a player for a mistake that (in this case) they didn't even make.

 

[Otcho]

So you would be willing to sacrifice your aug for theirs?

 

[eqjenius]

Diablo II on Battle.net allows players to create a character in "hardcore mode," which means that if your character dies, it can never be resurrected (http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/hardcore.shtml). The reason some players on Battle.net choose to play in hardcore mode is because of the extra thrill in playing the game with so much more on the line, and because Blizzard grants specific recognition to characters played in hardcore mode.

SoD, in contrast, has specifically and gradually moved away from a hardcore system, from gear not being trapped on a toon's corpse at death, to quests that have periodically been added to the game which allow players to fix their factions with certain cities, to the guestlock system itself. I support these changes, because after putting so much work into individual characters, players lose incentive to engage in in-game activities if their capabilities are permanently damaged. Risk should always be present, but permanent detriment as a result of faction choices results in players either ignoring the faction system or losing interest in progressing a character altogether.

So you would be willing to sacrifice your aug for theirs?

If the GMs feel this to be a reasonable solution, I would offer my faction aug in exchange for hers returned. The mistake, after all, was mine.

 

[Rorne]

Risk should always be present, but permanent detriment as a result of faction choices results in players either ignoring the faction system or losing interest in progressing a character altogether.

Are you really really sure the permanent detriment was a result of faction choices in your situation?

 

[eqjenius]

Are you really really sure the permanent detriment was a result of faction choices in your situation?

"Faction hits" would have been a more accurate description to my meaning.

 

[booster]

did you con the mobs

 

[Bonk84]

As stated above, and a few years ago...

If the quest text given by the two who give the aug quests were to be changed to add in the stipulation that once you turn in the head, you are then faction locked, I believe that will relieve some of the confusion and headache of these two augs. Upon turning in the heads, it locks your faction like pledging to a Diety.

This would safeguard characters from their faction or augs being unknowingly destroyed by people being in a rush to kill the Head Dropper when it pops by logging in a bot and not bothering to check faction, or in the case above, a person needs help with a bounty and logs in someone elses character to do it and not checking faction.

 

[norame]

As stated above, and a few years ago...

If the quest text given by the two who give the aug quests were to be changed to add in the stipulation that once you turn in the head, you are then faction locked, I believe that will relieve some of the confusion and headache of these two augs. Upon turning in the heads, it locks your faction like pledging to a Diety.

This would safeguard characters from their faction or augs being unknowingly destroyed by people being in a rush to kill the Frost King when he pops by logging in a bot and not bothering to check faction.

Faction locking seems like a cool idea in case of accidents/malicious people. Of course, the old-fashioned alternative is never giving out your info and basically saying "I don't trust you" to your guild or certain members.