Stormkeep vs DHK augs flaw in logic
- Thread starter Kazimir
- Start date
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
b/c obviously even though you broke their heart and killed them, they are so happy for you.
A notification that you can't switch and get another aug once you already get one somewhere in the quest text might be nice though.
A notification that you can't switch and get another aug once you already get one somewhere in the quest text might be nice though.
Trust And Fall
Dalayan Adventurer
In addition to what other people have said, I'd like to argue against people trying to say this whole "You killed their king, why would they be friends with you?" thing.
You can kill as many citizens of a city, and still quest back to ally and get a necklace. In my opinion, committing genocide against a race or group of people would probably make them dislike you more than slaying their leader. All in all the logic is completely flawed and can be argued either way, but if you can faction back to gate necklaces by being ally, why would you not be able to faction back an augment? And there's no way for players to know this for now. I think that an additional line needs to be added in to the quest warning players that once they obtain an augment they can never receive another one, nor receive one of the opposing faction.
Obviously from the responses in this thread the community seems to agree as a majority that it was not public knowledge that you could not switch factions for a new King/Empress augment.
If it was possible to make a new line of faction below scowling that'd be great. This line of faction would be irreparable and would leave you permanently KoS and would happen by slaying X number of a factions followers, or their leader X amount of times. This however, is probably not something implementable or worth the time investment at this point.
You can kill as many citizens of a city, and still quest back to ally and get a necklace. In my opinion, committing genocide against a race or group of people would probably make them dislike you more than slaying their leader. All in all the logic is completely flawed and can be argued either way, but if you can faction back to gate necklaces by being ally, why would you not be able to faction back an augment? And there's no way for players to know this for now. I think that an additional line needs to be added in to the quest warning players that once they obtain an augment they can never receive another one, nor receive one of the opposing faction.
Obviously from the responses in this thread the community seems to agree as a majority that it was not public knowledge that you could not switch factions for a new King/Empress augment.
If it was possible to make a new line of faction below scowling that'd be great. This line of faction would be irreparable and would leave you permanently KoS and would happen by slaying X number of a factions followers, or their leader X amount of times. This however, is probably not something implementable or worth the time investment at this point.
Just asking for clarification onhis point:
Are you unable to get the augment only if you've gotten one before from either faction, or unable if you have killed the ruler you're trying to get it from?
I'm assuming it's only if you've gotten an augment but I am also not 100% sure.
Are you unable to get the augment only if you've gotten one before from either faction, or unable if you have killed the ruler you're trying to get it from?
I'm assuming it's only if you've gotten an augment but I am also not 100% sure.
Spiritplx
Dalayan Elder
Yes, only if you have completed one of the augmentation quests can you no longer do the other.
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
Kazimir only ever got the giant faction augment, when he tried to turn in the Giant head to Empress she refused, and somehow his character was flagged as completing the quest for the dragon faction, even though he hadn't.
This is a non repeatable quest for a reason - and they really are the same quest.
The point of the factioning system in the north is to pick one or the other side. Because of that switching is discouraged - and this is one of the big factors of that discouragement.
As Wiz said - this aint changing. It is completely logical that after you kill the person giving a quest in another quest that you can not do the opposite. And even if it was not logical it is a game play decision that has a purpose.
Whether or not Wiz wants to change the quest text is his call but to be honest thinking that a quest like this is repeatable is a hell of an assumption.
The point of the factioning system in the north is to pick one or the other side. Because of that switching is discouraged - and this is one of the big factors of that discouragement.
As Wiz said - this aint changing. It is completely logical that after you kill the person giving a quest in another quest that you can not do the opposite. And even if it was not logical it is a game play decision that has a purpose.
Whether or not Wiz wants to change the quest text is his call but to be honest thinking that a quest like this is repeatable is a hell of an assumption.
Tyvec-a-tron
Dalayan Adventurer
Woldo don't take this the wrong way, but there are still numerous issues that are floating around on this topic. You guys have a system in place that is not only counterintuitive in logic and lore but it's not even something that is made known to the players. I'm sure it's possible that the number of people who have posted in support of this being changed or at least having a warning implemented are just missing the point...
If you want to discourage players from switching factions, why give the option to return to ally at all after you've sullied your name with that faction and gain the gate amulet again? To think that that is repeatable and this is not is nonsensical. Not to mention the fact that I have *never* seen a staff policy or ideology that discourages switching factions. If you'd like to point one out, I'd like to see it. I'd also like to point out that I can go kill Lord Z in WW and still turn in giant heads to him, so I can't see how it is a matter of a quest giver not allowing you to do a quest simply because you've killed/betrayed them before. IF the purpose is to stop people from switching factions (although I'm unclear as to why that would be a staff goal at all), why not make it so you cannot return to ally at all? Then there's the fact that people are to assume that once they do a different quest, they are unable to complete another? I'm sorry, but if that's a big assumption to make, then I'm gonna have to stop taking things in SoD at face value and second guess everything, which is ridiculous.
I understand you guys want to stick to your guns, but the support here is clearly for a change. You're going to deny that all the support for change here is without merit? I think it at least deserves a real explanation.
If you want to discourage players from switching factions, why give the option to return to ally at all after you've sullied your name with that faction and gain the gate amulet again? To think that that is repeatable and this is not is nonsensical. Not to mention the fact that I have *never* seen a staff policy or ideology that discourages switching factions. If you'd like to point one out, I'd like to see it. I'd also like to point out that I can go kill Lord Z in WW and still turn in giant heads to him, so I can't see how it is a matter of a quest giver not allowing you to do a quest simply because you've killed/betrayed them before. IF the purpose is to stop people from switching factions (although I'm unclear as to why that would be a staff goal at all), why not make it so you cannot return to ally at all? Then there's the fact that people are to assume that once they do a different quest, they are unable to complete another? I'm sorry, but if that's a big assumption to make, then I'm gonna have to stop taking things in SoD at face value and second guess everything, which is ridiculous.
I understand you guys want to stick to your guns, but the support here is clearly for a change. You're going to deny that all the support for change here is without merit? I think it at least deserves a real explanation.
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Like I said - the fact that you can not redo a quest that you have already done for the enemies of the side you did it for is perfectly logical. The "general support" for change is for people who switched faction after they did the quest or killed their factions mobs. This is *intended*.
The entire point of the faction bound change which included these was to make sticking with one faction the better choice. These augments are not hard to get all considered and are the reward for being loyal to the faction you pick after deciding. Sure you can switch factions after devoting yourself completely to one - but there are ramifications for that decision and this is one of them. This allows for people to join new guilds etc while still making it a hard decision.
Like I said before - the only real point I have seen would be to make it clearer in the quest for those who do not understand the entire point of the faction overhaul that caused these augs to be put in in the first place. Other than that - they are not changing.
If you want to list out the "numinous issues" feel free as I would be more than happy to give them a gander. The only issue I see so far is people making mistakes that effect their character and wanting them to be manually fixed.
The entire point of the faction bound change which included these was to make sticking with one faction the better choice. These augments are not hard to get all considered and are the reward for being loyal to the faction you pick after deciding. Sure you can switch factions after devoting yourself completely to one - but there are ramifications for that decision and this is one of them. This allows for people to join new guilds etc while still making it a hard decision.
Like I said before - the only real point I have seen would be to make it clearer in the quest for those who do not understand the entire point of the faction overhaul that caused these augs to be put in in the first place. Other than that - they are not changing.
If you want to list out the "numinous issues" feel free as I would be more than happy to give them a gander. The only issue I see so far is people making mistakes that effect their character and wanting them to be manually fixed.
avogadro
Dalayan Adventurer
I fully understand this point Wold.
But what about redoing the aug for the same faction without exp reward?
I figured I'd throw out the issues I see with the way it currently works.
First, it appears to be the only quest that I've seen that works like this. The player is given the ability to switch factions at will, receiving all the rewards of said switch on either side aside one, the aug. Now it is under your discretion to decide the aug will be a one time reward for choosing a faction. However, given that it is the only item/quest in the game that I can think of the works in that way and the fact that it is the only item in the quest that is unattainable upon faction switch, even if it works as intended it is unfair to hold the player at fault when the dev team gives no precedence whatsoever to to the way it works. The player has no reason to believe it will work like this because it is not said in either the quest or by the Devs that you can't switch nor is there another quest that has a similar element.
Secondly I would ask why the line was drawn with this particular quest. Why allow someone to go from one faction to another while receiving gate necks and faction armor and yet not the aug? I can understand that quests of this nature could be potentially exploitable if they were do-able multiple times, but why not allow the players the ability to recover their aug along with their other rewards for ally faction? If they lose their faction with giants/dragons without allying with another, they still lose their aug. Shouldn't they be able to recover their aug in that case, seeing as they haven't changed factions?
In conclusion, it is not the players fault they don't know this information; that falls in the hands of the Dev team. It seems pretty clear that the large majority of the people interested in this quest have no reason (aside this thread) to believe that such ramifications exit. At very least, if the quest works exactly as intended, a warning should be placed on this quest and the players who have changed factions unwillingly should be allowed to gain their original aug back.
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Tyvec-a-tron
Dalayan Adventurer
Logical to who? You don't think the problems that have occurred just cited in this thread and the requests for clarification on the matter here hint that maybe it's not as logically sound as you thought it was? Are people idiots for not coming to the conclusion that the staff is quick to point out is right in front of their faces?
I don't understand how people are making 'mistakes' of their own fault when there is no reason they should believe that the quest is suddenly unavailable to them. You guys have given no indication that you don't want people changing factions, and there certainly isn't anything in the dialog that says the quest will be unavailable after doing 1 side of it. This in addition to the fact that there is no other quest complication like this in the game and there are quests that actually would give you the indication that you *could* continue with this line (such as the faction turn ins and the gate neck) really paint a pretty vivid picture that there is a problem with the execution of this particular endeavor. Yes, I understand there are ramifications to changing factions. Don't you think, though, that telling people might be the route to take before they totally screw themselves over? Since you're conceding that it might need clarification in the quest itself for people who don't understand the mechanics of the faction (everyone but devs), shouldn't the people who are victims of the ambiguity here be given at least their original aug back?
Huh? Can't you switch factions and get a new neck for the side you become allied with even if you were allied and had the other factions neck previously? This sets a precedence for the player base that is the exact opposite of what you are intending, so no it does not logically follow that you cannot switch augs.
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robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
It also makes sense that you wouldn't ever be allowed into Athica or Newport ever again after slaughtering their citizens, but that isn't how it works in-game. That isn't even how it works for the quest this post is about, you can kill both faction's leaders as many times as you please and still get an aug from one of them later.
It would be totally fine for the quest to be a one-time permanent faction, but if it is it should be consistent throughout the quest line and included in it's description, justifying the way it is as an intended feature to encourage players to act in one way makes no sense though, since apparently Wiz and Woldaff were the only people on the server privy to this facet of the quest.
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Spiritplx
Dalayan Elder
I thought most people were just wanting the quest to state that you cannot switch once the quest is complete. I definitely don't think people can be throwing around the word logical, when most quests do not work this way (as pointed out by several posters). Can we not just have a couple lines of text added to any new quests that are this way, and to add said lines retroactively to old ones, so we can distinguish between the quests that work this way, and the ones that do not?
wolfwalkerEci
Banned Jerk
man that doesnt make any sense. it use to be stated that you could switch factions with some work but it would suck to be you. now its basically pick a faction and never change it and if you change guilds or guild wants to change factions tough luck.
well whatever the rule is for this someone sticky it in one of the READ ME threads so new players in the future know what to expect.
well whatever the rule is for this someone sticky it in one of the READ ME threads so new players in the future know what to expect.
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
I'm puzzled why you assume this is redoable when the absolute majority of quests are not redoable.
You guys can argue about "logic" until you're blue in the face, but this is a gameplay decision, and you're the one making the assumption that a quest can be redone when this is rarely the case.
I've never said you should never be allowed to switch faction, the "WHY SHOULD YOU BE ABLE TO GET ALLY AGAIN WHEN YOU CANT GET THE GEMSTONE AGAIN BAAARGH" is ridiculous. The gemstone is the end-all of the dragon/giant faction rewards, it's perfectly reasonable to have to lock down your faction before you can get the biggest prize.
You guys can argue about "logic" until you're blue in the face, but this is a gameplay decision, and you're the one making the assumption that a quest can be redone when this is rarely the case.
I've never said you should never be allowed to switch faction, the "WHY SHOULD YOU BE ABLE TO GET ALLY AGAIN WHEN YOU CANT GET THE GEMSTONE AGAIN BAAARGH" is ridiculous. The gemstone is the end-all of the dragon/giant faction rewards, it's perfectly reasonable to have to lock down your faction before you can get the biggest prize.
Llanoldar Lluindar
Dalayan Beginner
I'd guess that because it comes from two different NPCs on two different factions players think of it as two different quests, rather than two sides of one quest. And there is fair reason to think that way. Although there are other quests in the game that work like this, with you choosing one side of a conflict, none of those have the ability to switch back and forth for any part and the quest text is very clear on that fact.
Yes, the majority of quests in the game are not repeatable, but the bounty/gate neck quests (and I suppose faction binding) are infinitely repeatable and definately related to this quest line.
It isn't unreasonable to ask for a warning, for example like the one the main quest has, about joining one faction or the other, as well as a one-time do-over for people who lost their augs without knowing that this particular quest was non-repeatable.