Second Pass at Enchanter Balance Changes
- Thread starter DodoBot
- Start date
ShunGokuSatsu
Dalayan Beginner
I never got to experience SB/AOD pre-rework so I can't speak much to the cut in DPS (although, from what I understand... big sad).
Having spent the last 6 months or so on my chanter I can only offer these 3 suggestions regarding future class revisions.
1. Since Relic: Placid Focus has very little utility, I suggest it be replaced with a Chromatic line spell with a nuke that actually nukes, and a rune component that offers decent protection in fights. For balance, make it so there is a cooldown if the rune hits party members but no cooldown if it hits you (or something).
2. One of the special AAs for enchanters is "exceptional healing" which I think is misplaced, considering the only way an enchanter could heal is via proc. I think this AA should be replaced with an AA that boosts the efficacy of rune spells you cast by x% (or, if need be, rune spells cast on you). This would help boost the overall utility of runes in solo and group play.
3. Regarding the new Dispel Detrimental line: there is absolutely no good reason why there needs to be a cooldown on that spell.
The first time I went to go use it, I was soloing szithri trappers in Remnants. I saw Brood of Talin stomping my way but was rooted, and so I went to use the spell and encountered the greyed out spell gem. Needless to say, what happened next was a scene straight out of Jurassic Park.
In 95% of the group situations I've been in, dispelling detrimental effects is not a win/lose factor. The only place I could think it would be useful is in raid scenarios if a raid boss is mezzing or something, but then again... those situations usually require you hitting more than one person in rapid succession which is killed by the spell's cooldown.
Also, an idea I just had:
Combine Relic: Runecloak and Dilated Shelter (Refuge) by making the Relic spell a group cast, adjusting the rune value (1k-1.325k), and reagent use accordingly. Then, make the Enchanter's Refuge spell a BEEFY self-only Somatic Bond with a 15-30 duration and a long cooldown, which stacks with the normal targetable SB.
Having spent the last 6 months or so on my chanter I can only offer these 3 suggestions regarding future class revisions.
1. Since Relic: Placid Focus has very little utility, I suggest it be replaced with a Chromatic line spell with a nuke that actually nukes, and a rune component that offers decent protection in fights. For balance, make it so there is a cooldown if the rune hits party members but no cooldown if it hits you (or something).
2. One of the special AAs for enchanters is "exceptional healing" which I think is misplaced, considering the only way an enchanter could heal is via proc. I think this AA should be replaced with an AA that boosts the efficacy of rune spells you cast by x% (or, if need be, rune spells cast on you). This would help boost the overall utility of runes in solo and group play.
3. Regarding the new Dispel Detrimental line: there is absolutely no good reason why there needs to be a cooldown on that spell.
The first time I went to go use it, I was soloing szithri trappers in Remnants. I saw Brood of Talin stomping my way but was rooted, and so I went to use the spell and encountered the greyed out spell gem. Needless to say, what happened next was a scene straight out of Jurassic Park.
In 95% of the group situations I've been in, dispelling detrimental effects is not a win/lose factor. The only place I could think it would be useful is in raid scenarios if a raid boss is mezzing or something, but then again... those situations usually require you hitting more than one person in rapid succession which is killed by the spell's cooldown.
Also, an idea I just had:
Combine Relic: Runecloak and Dilated Shelter (Refuge) by making the Relic spell a group cast, adjusting the rune value (1k-1.325k), and reagent use accordingly. Then, make the Enchanter's Refuge spell a BEEFY self-only Somatic Bond with a 15-30 duration and a long cooldown, which stacks with the normal targetable SB.
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
Placid focus should just get replaced with a self only illusion that's like yaulp 6+ w/ overhaste. Then cascading bond can be reworked to buff the spell via +ATK, + proc rate, + overhaste, cooler illusions, etc
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
Or just make cascading bond apply to self only werewolf illusion and call it a day
DodoBot
Dalayan Elder
Enchanter Patch II - Electric Boogaloo!
The last patch had a little bit of good, bad, and ugly in it for enchanters... After playing around with things a bit, here are my thoughts (blue=good, red=bad, white=neutral):- The playstyle is generally more active / diverse. I like being able to cast more spells, opening with dot and then rotating relic nuke and chromatic with less time spent on mimic spells. Increasing charm utility throughout the game is fun, where it applies. I'd like to see even more charmable mobs seeded around at all levels. Break bonds has some potential to be useful, but might need some tweaks.
- However... damage seems pretty awful now. It's actually WORSE in most places than last patch due to AOD and Bond being on separate timers and cooldowns going back in on the relic nuke. Going from bad to worse is not a good look when changes have already demoralized just about all of the enchanter mains who still play.
- Component removal in general is a good thing for enchanters as with other classes.
- I love curses as an AA. This is one of my favorite changes.
Avatar, Bond, Boon:
- Putting AOD and Bond on the same cooldown is brutal.The class damage potential is further gutted. This also totally changes the playstyle and reduces excitement to obtaining the runic (which for many classes is a huge boost in power compared to pre-relic characters). If I were a new Enc, I'd barely care about getting my R1 at this point, and ironically, our Runic 2 is also fairly weak compared to most other classes' R2 spells.
- I think there should be consideration to putting these back on separate timers AND reducing the spell mimicry mitigation.
- If AOD is going to share a cooldown with bond, restore AOD mimicry to at least 75% damage if not 100%.
- Remember, if you're AODing one person and doing nothing else, it's 1/8 the damage potential as before (one could hit 4 people, unmitigated, in the old setup).
- 100% AOD + Bond + Buffed Nukes is still a massive damage reduction compared to before, but is far more bearable than either a single 50% AOD or Bond
- I appreciate the staff listening and adding an extra tick of duration relative to the cooldown. This definitely makes it easier to keep the buff continuously online.
- The other component that isn't being factored properly is CASCADING BOND TOME. Please consider this before further nerfs are deployed... See below.
Magic Direct Damage Spells:
- Relic Nuke Line: Having the pushback removed is great. Having the cooldown back doesn't feel too great though... it's just another reduction to already reduced DPS.
- Chromatic Nuke Line: The efficiency of these spells was definitely improved, but the damage still seems lackluster. Is there consideration to buff the damage on these and/or consider making the rune scale in some fashion? Personally, I think having a rune that scales could definitely make up for the lower damage overall.
Damage Over Time:
- I like the reverse splurt idea on these, and the debuff seems improved... I am more likely to cast these now than before, and I am especially more likely to use it in an exp group. Does anyone have numbers to compare the debuff effect on both mob damage output and damage taken?
Other Spells:
- Placid Focus: Seems like it's fine, especially in light of combat bug and DF. Any way we could get a reduced time cooldown on this?
- Break Bonds Spell line: Would like to see a reduced cooldown on this as well as an ability to break charm in addition to the current snare, root, fear, and mez.
- Ancient Invis: Can we make this a group casting spell??? I see nothing game breaking about this at all.
- Caster and Melee Curse: getting converted to AAs is AWESOME. One of the best changes you all have made as far as usability and QOL.
- Animation Pet: The poor guy has really been overshadowed these days. Given that he has some AAs to support him shielding the caster, can we either give him a means of dodging AOE spells or seriously buff his hitpoints?
- Other Existing Spell Lines: Any plans to look at adding a new PBAOE mez upgrade to entrancing lights? Also wondering about ways that the color stuns, misdirection, and feedback, could potentially get looked at.
- See also my ideas for other new spells above in the thread here.
Itemization:
- Chromatic Focus: Is there a reason this is currently only found on very high end gear? Will this be itemized onto lower level items?
- Are the chromatic foci also supposed to only be one percent per rank with a max of 3 ranks in game? Also...
- Do the chromatic nukes employ two focus effects? The chromatic focus, and whatever focus ends up being used for the spell? I'd be curious to know because I try to keep as many foci up at a time as I can to reduce a need to swap gear.
- Enc Melee Weapons: Are these going to be re-balanced at some point in light of not being able to use cascading bond effectively?
Charms:
- Charm mobs are fun when you can find them, and it promotes a more active playstyle.
- However, the damage isn't that impressive on many of the new ones.I'd like to see how much damage each one is actually pushing.
- Most are nowhere near Abyss / Bloodstorm Tunnels pet DPS, and a lot of them don't feel any better than the runework pet.
- Are charmable mobs being balanced by zone or are they targeted towards a specific DPS number?
- Additionally, has there been any look at dark blue / white charmable mobs?
- I don't use control very often as opposed to word of command, but I'm very curious to know if these were re-balanced as well.
AAs/Tomes:
- Cascading Bond needs a fix asap. I really miss being able to consistently melee (given that I am currently using one of the better caster melee weapons for my tier). Can we make it a hotkey or a passive so that one does not have to worry about a long cooldown on bond or sharing a cooldown with AOD??? If there is a rework in the works, can an AA refund be issued in the meantime?
Something like this, or preferably a hotkey-able that applies a similar buff is ideal, in my opinion. The loss of damage potential from cascading bond when in most group settings is very sad. Especially in light of AOD and the Bond spells sharing a cooldown now. Outside of areas where I can find an effective charm pet, I feel like enchanter damage output has been very lackluster.
- Third Enchanter AA (Tome) Enchanters are one of six classes without a third class AA / Tome. When the second enchanter tome was rendered unusable in a large number of circumstances, you're now further reducing endgame experience sinks. While we have to maximize nearly all of the magic damage foci, it would still be nice if we had options for advanced class development / diversity. See some of my ideas in the post above here. Using the stance system has been echoed by others as well.
I appreciate the willingness to look at feedback from the community and would definitely echo that despite my grievances, many of the changes are warranted. Just remember that any nerfs that you make have to be considered in the context of broader changes (from itemization to other class revamps), and should not make things worse in duo or group settings just because ENCs were doing too much damage on raids. Let's keep things moving forward and continue to be responsive to the needs of the people who play this class.
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This is on all items throughout the game. I would imagine you were only told about the high tier items.
You wont be getting 12 man raid mob DPS in a 6 man dungeon. Efreeti lashmaster is a benchmark for that tier of 6 man. If a dungeon is harder than Emberflow, the mob will also be better, and vise versa. In some scenarios entrance mobs are stronger; if you lose them you may substitute them for weaker charm targets within.
1% per rank is intentional. "max of 3 ranks in game" is not a true statement.
Currently the chromatic nukes are not set correctly, being Unresistable rather than chromatic. This should be fixed next server restart.
cornelweezy
Dalayan Elder
my feedback after exping, doing 6 mans, and raiding since changes:
AoD/Boon/Bond: This was discussed in discord but ENC raid dps was probably too strong before the changes on the back of these spells. Cornel is relatively poorly geared yet was doing very nice dpsing in raids the moment AoD went in the spellbook. Especially when Dranic didn't show up/swapped out and I was the only enchanter. Dranic is/was actually geared and his numbers were even sillier given his charm and foci. That being said, I feel like numbers have swung hard the other direction. This is a growing pain, I suppose, but enchanters are so relatively brutal solo/duo I feel like we need to shift some other things around and hand out a few more carrots. If Devs like where AoD/Boon/Bond are at now, so be it. I humbly ask that AoD and Bond go on separate timers so an Enc can get melee mimic and caster mimic even if the rates stay the same as they are now. That would pump a little dps in single or two Enc raid comps.
Magic DD spells: I don't mind the cd on relic nuke. It seems the point is to rotate relic nuke with 65 chromatic. It feels good to actually spend the mana and see numbers and the little rider rune on chromatic doesn't hurt. Relic nuke still has a pretty bad dmg/mana ratio. Any stats based buffs to relic nuke would be appreciated; even a recourse that increases DD damage on the target ala bitter cold would be nice and play right into the chromatic combo. An increase to base damage on chromatic would be a nice thing if buffing relic nuke is off the table.
Dots: These are fine. I understand changes to STR/AGI on mobs finally do something with the cripple buff. The cripple buff is noticeable imo on 6 man exp mobs. Welcome changes.
Placid focus: still useful but doesn't get as much run these days. I don't bother memming it, groups and raids have just waited for new regen to kick in.
Break bonds: I had a chance to use it the other day to break a root but I hadn't bought the components. I'm sure it's useful but more of a "stay ready so you don't have to get ready" kind of thing.
Ancient invis: I agree with the above, just make this a purple gem so it's a linear upgrade to group invis
Animation pet: I think this is the one easy place where enchanter could dramatically improve in solo/duo situations. The animation pets as currently iterated have a relatively low level, relatively low hps compared to the main pet classes, and do decent but less than stellar dps for their levels. Thereby, even up through ancient animation, aggro generation is pathetic. I suggest the animation line should serve another purpose distinct to the Enc class and true to it's shield and weapon makeup: it's an on demand tank. The animations should have relatively low dps, but they should have relatively large hp pools, relatively high AC, relatively high resists, and massive taunt. Basically, if the enchanter is using an animation, that animation will hold aggro through a few relic nukes at least and live to tell about it. That way, an enchanter can deploy the animation as a ghetto tank and reliable taunt instead of a charm pet and more duo options open up as whatever the enc is boxing doesn't have to tank for the duo. This has the "downside" of discouraging animation use for encounters with tanks/fuller groups, but the chanter should be using a charm pet when available in that situation anyway. This would play well with Cascading Bond AA when that gets fixed. This would play into the Guarding Animation AA also.
Other things:
* Becloud Memories AA is hot and cold, would like to see efficacy improved a little bit. Are the numbers on it better than Memory Flux, even? should be imo.
* Illusory Sleight works well in ideal conditions, but can the duration be doubled or tripled so it can be set up a little easier, please?
* I haven't finished Cascading Bond yet but I think renaming the AA "Arcane Valor" or something equally corny and making it a self only buff would be fine. Or just staple the benefits onto illusion werewolf or shapeshift or another new shiny illusion separate and apart from Bond given the changes.
Thank you for working on this stuff Cole, we are making progress!
AoD/Boon/Bond: This was discussed in discord but ENC raid dps was probably too strong before the changes on the back of these spells. Cornel is relatively poorly geared yet was doing very nice dpsing in raids the moment AoD went in the spellbook. Especially when Dranic didn't show up/swapped out and I was the only enchanter. Dranic is/was actually geared and his numbers were even sillier given his charm and foci. That being said, I feel like numbers have swung hard the other direction. This is a growing pain, I suppose, but enchanters are so relatively brutal solo/duo I feel like we need to shift some other things around and hand out a few more carrots. If Devs like where AoD/Boon/Bond are at now, so be it. I humbly ask that AoD and Bond go on separate timers so an Enc can get melee mimic and caster mimic even if the rates stay the same as they are now. That would pump a little dps in single or two Enc raid comps.
Magic DD spells: I don't mind the cd on relic nuke. It seems the point is to rotate relic nuke with 65 chromatic. It feels good to actually spend the mana and see numbers and the little rider rune on chromatic doesn't hurt. Relic nuke still has a pretty bad dmg/mana ratio. Any stats based buffs to relic nuke would be appreciated; even a recourse that increases DD damage on the target ala bitter cold would be nice and play right into the chromatic combo. An increase to base damage on chromatic would be a nice thing if buffing relic nuke is off the table.
Dots: These are fine. I understand changes to STR/AGI on mobs finally do something with the cripple buff. The cripple buff is noticeable imo on 6 man exp mobs. Welcome changes.
Placid focus: still useful but doesn't get as much run these days. I don't bother memming it, groups and raids have just waited for new regen to kick in.
Break bonds: I had a chance to use it the other day to break a root but I hadn't bought the components. I'm sure it's useful but more of a "stay ready so you don't have to get ready" kind of thing.
Ancient invis: I agree with the above, just make this a purple gem so it's a linear upgrade to group invis
Animation pet: I think this is the one easy place where enchanter could dramatically improve in solo/duo situations. The animation pets as currently iterated have a relatively low level, relatively low hps compared to the main pet classes, and do decent but less than stellar dps for their levels. Thereby, even up through ancient animation, aggro generation is pathetic. I suggest the animation line should serve another purpose distinct to the Enc class and true to it's shield and weapon makeup: it's an on demand tank. The animations should have relatively low dps, but they should have relatively large hp pools, relatively high AC, relatively high resists, and massive taunt. Basically, if the enchanter is using an animation, that animation will hold aggro through a few relic nukes at least and live to tell about it. That way, an enchanter can deploy the animation as a ghetto tank and reliable taunt instead of a charm pet and more duo options open up as whatever the enc is boxing doesn't have to tank for the duo. This has the "downside" of discouraging animation use for encounters with tanks/fuller groups, but the chanter should be using a charm pet when available in that situation anyway. This would play well with Cascading Bond AA when that gets fixed. This would play into the Guarding Animation AA also.
Other things:
* Becloud Memories AA is hot and cold, would like to see efficacy improved a little bit. Are the numbers on it better than Memory Flux, even? should be imo.
* Illusory Sleight works well in ideal conditions, but can the duration be doubled or tripled so it can be set up a little easier, please?
* I haven't finished Cascading Bond yet but I think renaming the AA "Arcane Valor" or something equally corny and making it a self only buff would be fine. Or just staple the benefits onto illusion werewolf or shapeshift or another new shiny illusion separate and apart from Bond given the changes.
Thank you for working on this stuff Cole, we are making progress!
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
Regent requirements have been, and always will be, a horrible feature.
just making this AA a self-only active ability named the same thing that costs mana and lasts 30 (24? 30? don't remember) seconds would work too, but tome is basically unusable outside of soloing now.
A lot of really good feedback above, agree with all of it.
For me, I ask "what makes an enchanter fun to play?" There historically hasn't been a lot, and it feels like it's gotten worse. The evidence being the already abysmally low enchanter population further dropping off since these changes. The answer to "how do I grind up my enc, or farm its supreme?" has been, and still remains, "adv band them and play two other characters."
These games are fun when you feel powerful - recently I was xping in first ruins when bad pathing pulled like 20 bloodfires and I was able to mes them all. Afterwards the group was like, "holy shit, we're still alive? lol" - that was fun, and the reactions felt great. IM raid isn't tough, but all the mesing is a lot of fun. Abyss is one of my favorite zones because of all the mesing, and because the pet is crazy good. It's just fun. BS is a great zone, it's a little less fun because you mostly don't need to mes and the pet is helpful but not really necessary. For XP, most groups just tank roll because it's easier, aoe because it's more efficient, or couldn't crowd control anyway with the proliferation of procing weapons or equipment.
And while an enc is OP in very specific circumstances, in most cases they're still almost a waste to play. A tank/melee/healer can grab the complimentary class and work on quests, or grind out mad plat for charms. I can run a tank/enc and make in a day what they can in an hour, or more fishing (without getting an ED, just vendor maps) than I can grinding using my toon. I generally refuse to sit my toon on principal, but I did have to for parts of the LOIO quest - and forget about some of the higher quests like the remnants collect quest - I couldn't even solo to slowly grind up the razad kills, while some of my friends nearly afk 2 boxed it. That's not to say everything is easy street or for all classes, but literally everything is a knife fight for an enc. It's not fun to be exhausted after a few hours of barely surviving the stuff that IS easy, or at least doable, for everyone else. Predating the enc refactoring, I thought the buff changes would really have made enc more desirable, but that was not at all my experience. We were replaced with potions and good-enough buffs (some newly added) from other classes, while there's not really a tank/hp/dps potion we can use to sustain ourselves and nothing was added to enc in the buff rework. We're weaker in solo/duo now than ever.
Raids are like 20% of the game for me personally. AoD was broken, but it was fun. And it was an active play style - the current nuke changes kind of keep it active, but it's as much or more effort for a lot less payoff (contribution and enjoyment). We're just contributing less, with really nothing new to add but bad nukes, and that just feels bad.
AoD and bond being on the same timer makes having two spells just a waste. I personally like melee enc, it's fun and gives me a reason to collect weapons, but in a group is also kind of a waste to cast it on myself and not a melee - XP is more boring. They need to be split into two timers, and the enc aa/tome line just made innate (or a self illusion/aa). Neither change would unbalance anything and enc would still be nowhere near their former raid glory, so I really don't understand the hesitancy. AoD also needs something for the recipient - even before getting nerfed into the ground casters would complain about having to keep a buff slot open purely for the benefit of the enc, whereas melee got the haste and +attk from bond.
For charming, sometimes I go to elds just because it's easy to access and I can kind of handle it with just a healer and a pet. A charm mob can kind of go 1v1 with haste and slow, and maybe the pet lasts 2-3 mobs with me helping / nuking. It's a slow life, but it's doable. But at T12 I still get overwhelmed and die maybe 25% of the time in a 55-65 zone. In harder zones it's an even worse effort/risk/reward payoff. I'm not sure if charm mobs are weaker when charmed, or if it's a level disparity, but they don't seem to have even that kind of staying power. And we're still fresh meat in a close quarter zone like kaesora. In groups (and even some 12man raids), I've literally been told to drop the pet because it wasn't worth the extra effort or the healer/tank didn't want to pay that close of attention. Charm pets being added gives some options, but a bad break or resist wastes all the prep/travel/break in time in a way other classes don't have constantly hanging over their heads. The charm mobs have a real shot to kill you with every break, especially in tight spaces or with bad pathing (I'm looking at you, slight ramp out-of-sight bug) or lag/zone crash/disconnects. Charm also doesn't help for special abilities (rampage/ww/phantom strike like in Kaesora or loio, lots of mobs that can't be rooted or messed like loio, sniping in citadel).
There's been a lot of great aa/tome/spell suggestions in this and the previous thread, so I'm not really sure what else to add to that conversation. A short duration ae knock back and very short duration root, if stuns can't be made to work in most zones/undead, would at least give us an 'oh shit' chance to survive. Other combat innates would give flavor, a tank +ac/agi, a healer +spec, a pet boost for pet classes, etc. A proc mod to self innates (like bard but not as much) for melee, maybe a tweak to shared mind to reverse wand of stolen magic to add our weapon proc at a low but meaningful chance to our group or raid. Make the animations a long duration swarm pet so we can use charm and the aa defence of the animation. The pet does negligible dps (I mean it punches with a sword lol). More illusion spells / quests (fun stuff).
For me, I ask "what makes an enchanter fun to play?" There historically hasn't been a lot, and it feels like it's gotten worse. The evidence being the already abysmally low enchanter population further dropping off since these changes. The answer to "how do I grind up my enc, or farm its supreme?" has been, and still remains, "adv band them and play two other characters."
These games are fun when you feel powerful - recently I was xping in first ruins when bad pathing pulled like 20 bloodfires and I was able to mes them all. Afterwards the group was like, "holy shit, we're still alive? lol" - that was fun, and the reactions felt great. IM raid isn't tough, but all the mesing is a lot of fun. Abyss is one of my favorite zones because of all the mesing, and because the pet is crazy good. It's just fun. BS is a great zone, it's a little less fun because you mostly don't need to mes and the pet is helpful but not really necessary. For XP, most groups just tank roll because it's easier, aoe because it's more efficient, or couldn't crowd control anyway with the proliferation of procing weapons or equipment.
And while an enc is OP in very specific circumstances, in most cases they're still almost a waste to play. A tank/melee/healer can grab the complimentary class and work on quests, or grind out mad plat for charms. I can run a tank/enc and make in a day what they can in an hour, or more fishing (without getting an ED, just vendor maps) than I can grinding using my toon. I generally refuse to sit my toon on principal, but I did have to for parts of the LOIO quest - and forget about some of the higher quests like the remnants collect quest - I couldn't even solo to slowly grind up the razad kills, while some of my friends nearly afk 2 boxed it. That's not to say everything is easy street or for all classes, but literally everything is a knife fight for an enc. It's not fun to be exhausted after a few hours of barely surviving the stuff that IS easy, or at least doable, for everyone else. Predating the enc refactoring, I thought the buff changes would really have made enc more desirable, but that was not at all my experience. We were replaced with potions and good-enough buffs (some newly added) from other classes, while there's not really a tank/hp/dps potion we can use to sustain ourselves and nothing was added to enc in the buff rework. We're weaker in solo/duo now than ever.
Raids are like 20% of the game for me personally. AoD was broken, but it was fun. And it was an active play style - the current nuke changes kind of keep it active, but it's as much or more effort for a lot less payoff (contribution and enjoyment). We're just contributing less, with really nothing new to add but bad nukes, and that just feels bad.
AoD and bond being on the same timer makes having two spells just a waste. I personally like melee enc, it's fun and gives me a reason to collect weapons, but in a group is also kind of a waste to cast it on myself and not a melee - XP is more boring. They need to be split into two timers, and the enc aa/tome line just made innate (or a self illusion/aa). Neither change would unbalance anything and enc would still be nowhere near their former raid glory, so I really don't understand the hesitancy. AoD also needs something for the recipient - even before getting nerfed into the ground casters would complain about having to keep a buff slot open purely for the benefit of the enc, whereas melee got the haste and +attk from bond.
For charming, sometimes I go to elds just because it's easy to access and I can kind of handle it with just a healer and a pet. A charm mob can kind of go 1v1 with haste and slow, and maybe the pet lasts 2-3 mobs with me helping / nuking. It's a slow life, but it's doable. But at T12 I still get overwhelmed and die maybe 25% of the time in a 55-65 zone. In harder zones it's an even worse effort/risk/reward payoff. I'm not sure if charm mobs are weaker when charmed, or if it's a level disparity, but they don't seem to have even that kind of staying power. And we're still fresh meat in a close quarter zone like kaesora. In groups (and even some 12man raids), I've literally been told to drop the pet because it wasn't worth the extra effort or the healer/tank didn't want to pay that close of attention. Charm pets being added gives some options, but a bad break or resist wastes all the prep/travel/break in time in a way other classes don't have constantly hanging over their heads. The charm mobs have a real shot to kill you with every break, especially in tight spaces or with bad pathing (I'm looking at you, slight ramp out-of-sight bug) or lag/zone crash/disconnects. Charm also doesn't help for special abilities (rampage/ww/phantom strike like in Kaesora or loio, lots of mobs that can't be rooted or messed like loio, sniping in citadel).
There's been a lot of great aa/tome/spell suggestions in this and the previous thread, so I'm not really sure what else to add to that conversation. A short duration ae knock back and very short duration root, if stuns can't be made to work in most zones/undead, would at least give us an 'oh shit' chance to survive. Other combat innates would give flavor, a tank +ac/agi, a healer +spec, a pet boost for pet classes, etc. A proc mod to self innates (like bard but not as much) for melee, maybe a tweak to shared mind to reverse wand of stolen magic to add our weapon proc at a low but meaningful chance to our group or raid. Make the animations a long duration swarm pet so we can use charm and the aa defence of the animation. The pet does negligible dps (I mean it punches with a sword lol). More illusion spells / quests (fun stuff).
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Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
tl;dr
ENCs are now a hybrid of a sad WIZ and a sad MAG - sad WIZ because nukes as bad or worse DPM than WIZ nukes, but with no ultimates/primals. Sad MAG because (charm)pets that are about on par with MAG pets (looking at you, efreeti lashmaster!), but without the pet stances. Oh and the pet actively wants to murder the ENC.
ENCs are now a hybrid of a sad WIZ and a sad MAG - sad WIZ because nukes as bad or worse DPM than WIZ nukes, but with no ultimates/primals. Sad MAG because (charm)pets that are about on par with MAG pets (looking at you, efreeti lashmaster!), but without the pet stances. Oh and the pet actively wants to murder the ENC.
We should try tuning charm pets the other way, make a burnout style effect part of the charm and boost the dps, but at the expense of hp/ac/reduced healing. Maybe make it so we can get weapons back from them on death (gurok rock but for pet primary /secondary on death). That would give us some gind power for the risk of charming, without making an immortal pet that can just eat a zone with a little healing.
DodoBot
Dalayan Elder
Had a chance to play around with some of the new charmable pets in upper thaz thaz, and the DPS is good for the tier. I am definitely looking forward to seeing similar mobs around other raid zones. While this is welcome, I think that going forward, one of the things that several of us have echoed is that it is important to have a sense of what the "enchanter playstyle" should be.
It seems that the consensus is that we are effectively a DPS Class + Unique Utility (SOD, does not have the population or encounter design to support a utility only role, and no one wants to play an afk-buff bot). However, @Iliangur and @Nwaij said above, an enchanter should not be a bad wizard or a bad mage. In a pure DPS role, Enchanters are unique in that they use 3 disparate means to do damage simultaneously. 1) Direct Damage through spells (DOT line, Main Nuke Line, Chromatic Nuke Line), 2) Enhancement Effects (Bond, AOD, and previously a self-enhanced melee ability), and 3) Pets (with a weight leaning towards charmed pets, but options like sword pet or runework should remain situationally useful). Many classes have 2 of these, but I think the only other class that might be able to do all 3 is a bard. Ideally, 1, 2, and 3 should each float between 20% and 40% of your damage depending on encounter and group setup.
The utility side of enchanters is generally well-understood (Crowd Control, Rune, Buffs, and Debuffs). But consider as a dps class if the Enc is fulfilling his utility role, he is not doing damage. If raids have to tone down enchanter DPS, consider an increase the need for utility, (reinforcing class identity), rather than overtuning core abilities (which necessitates a lot of adjustments for solo/duo/group situations and also requires complex itemization).
A longer timer for AOD or Bond does promote a more active playstyle. It gives more room for flexibility with options 1 and 3 above. But as things are set right now, there is too much lean into 1) (bad wizard) and occasionally 3) charmer with extreme risk of death. I will say, going forward, the worst thing feel wise is having a dead tome and often a dead spell gem for things that were really integral to the play style before. I know it's not just me who LIKED to hit both a caster and a melee with our enhancing spells as well as come in for a swing ourselves when it's safe to do so... Would love to get some commentary before the next round of changes.
It seems that the consensus is that we are effectively a DPS Class + Unique Utility (SOD, does not have the population or encounter design to support a utility only role, and no one wants to play an afk-buff bot). However, @Iliangur and @Nwaij said above, an enchanter should not be a bad wizard or a bad mage. In a pure DPS role, Enchanters are unique in that they use 3 disparate means to do damage simultaneously. 1) Direct Damage through spells (DOT line, Main Nuke Line, Chromatic Nuke Line), 2) Enhancement Effects (Bond, AOD, and previously a self-enhanced melee ability), and 3) Pets (with a weight leaning towards charmed pets, but options like sword pet or runework should remain situationally useful). Many classes have 2 of these, but I think the only other class that might be able to do all 3 is a bard. Ideally, 1, 2, and 3 should each float between 20% and 40% of your damage depending on encounter and group setup.
The utility side of enchanters is generally well-understood (Crowd Control, Rune, Buffs, and Debuffs). But consider as a dps class if the Enc is fulfilling his utility role, he is not doing damage. If raids have to tone down enchanter DPS, consider an increase the need for utility, (reinforcing class identity), rather than overtuning core abilities (which necessitates a lot of adjustments for solo/duo/group situations and also requires complex itemization).
A longer timer for AOD or Bond does promote a more active playstyle. It gives more room for flexibility with options 1 and 3 above. But as things are set right now, there is too much lean into 1) (bad wizard) and occasionally 3) charmer with extreme risk of death. I will say, going forward, the worst thing feel wise is having a dead tome and often a dead spell gem for things that were really integral to the play style before. I know it's not just me who LIKED to hit both a caster and a melee with our enhancing spells as well as come in for a swing ourselves when it's safe to do so... Would love to get some commentary before the next round of changes.
DodoBot
Dalayan Elder
Mez traps might be an idea to stick under Third Enchanter Tome or another AA. I see it as something that could be used with pullers far enough away from the main group that AEs aren't breaking everything. Also like you said, a safety net in between the enchanter and a charm pet or other potentially hostile mob. Might also indirectly encourage enchanter involvement in pulls by synergizing with pacify, but then again, so little content actually requires this level of splitting. I don't think it's a core need, but it might be a fun option for expansion of the class.