Right of Way-
- Thread starter Snake
- Start date
oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
Solution: need 18 level 65 people to claim. Even if all were boxxed thats 9 RL players.
The rules are fine the way they are now but the 18 people would solve it period.
Also, Guilds should not be allowed to even enter a raid zone without 18 people unless to recover from a wipe. (even if this means there's 3 guilds with 17 people sitting outside the ward for spires waiting on the 18th).
(if you want pages from Yclist mobs) JUST THE PAGES it requires atleast 12 characters to be in the zone. and you either move out or move aside for a raid of 18
The rules are fine the way they are now but the 18 people would solve it period.
Also, Guilds should not be allowed to even enter a raid zone without 18 people unless to recover from a wipe. (even if this means there's 3 guilds with 17 people sitting outside the ward for spires waiting on the 18th).
(if you want pages from Yclist mobs) JUST THE PAGES it requires atleast 12 characters to be in the zone. and you either move out or move aside for a raid of 18
Goldfolk
Dalayan Elder
I also find this thread hilarious
Exodus have been specifically killing Prime to stop CW progressing. In doing this they handed about 70% of IS and Abyss over to us.
Last time I looked about 14:00 EST 29th October Exodus had 12 people in spires to ensure claim but that is obviously OK
It doesn't matter what rules you have they are open to abuse. We wouldn't have any problem if people didn't have the attitude that they have some sort of divine right to all the mobs on the server. It's obviously too much to hope that people behave like adults.
Exodus has an inherent advantage being on Euro time and the 6 man rule does even the playing field. It may be it needs some slight modification but the fact is that as it stands if the rules are modified as Snake suggests it hands about 90% of mobs to Exodus on a plate. In my time on the server I have seen Guilds desperate to progress sit for hours on end in a zone; I remember Anguish camping Corefire for 12 hours to ensure claim and nobody batted an eyelid.
From a Dev/GM perspective I would have thought they were really pleased to see some competition for high end content finally.
Finally, I wish people would remember this is a game that is meant to be enjoyed; part of the joy of the game is the competition and the hard won progression. If you have to do this by actively sabotaging other guilds doesn't say much about you.
Exodus have been specifically killing Prime to stop CW progressing. In doing this they handed about 70% of IS and Abyss over to us.
Last time I looked about 14:00 EST 29th October Exodus had 12 people in spires to ensure claim but that is obviously OK
It doesn't matter what rules you have they are open to abuse. We wouldn't have any problem if people didn't have the attitude that they have some sort of divine right to all the mobs on the server. It's obviously too much to hope that people behave like adults.
Exodus has an inherent advantage being on Euro time and the 6 man rule does even the playing field. It may be it needs some slight modification but the fact is that as it stands if the rules are modified as Snake suggests it hands about 90% of mobs to Exodus on a plate. In my time on the server I have seen Guilds desperate to progress sit for hours on end in a zone; I remember Anguish camping Corefire for 12 hours to ensure claim and nobody batted an eyelid.
From a Dev/GM perspective I would have thought they were really pleased to see some competition for high end content finally.
Finally, I wish people would remember this is a game that is meant to be enjoyed; part of the joy of the game is the competition and the hard won progression. If you have to do this by actively sabotaging other guilds doesn't say much about you.
Silosobi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I could support raising the claim # to 12-16, but it would be dumb to say people cant go into a raid zone without 18. Half of FWF farmed their yclist pages DUOing. Many people were unaware of how runic 2 worked, or joined the guild after we were already progressed past the zone. It would be silly to say you have to go 18 man raid trash for drops you can get with 1 group.
If someone is farming trash with a small group, and you port a raid of the magic number or more to the zone then the raid has claim, and the smaller group must leave. Sure, there would be some instances where higher tier groups can 6 man raid bosses, and boo hoo, their alts might miss out on some loot, but I'd rather see a legitimate lower tier guild get to try to progress.
Having 18 be the number is bad because you can lose a claim due to one dude going linkdead or other dumb similar stuff, having 6 be the number means that 3-4 people can box and casually clear trash and it is a legitimate claim to cockblock a legitimate 18 man raid force.
Dimmi
Dalayan Elder
SoD is about COMPETITION (Until it happens to you!)
I remember when the claim rules got changed, and I remember the MASSIVE sigh of relief that came wooshing out from Sunset Home. It's not the policy that's the problem, it's an enforcement issue. The solution lies in staff puting in an extra mile to investigate the disputing guilds' ability to raid the content.
You got 6 in zone, 8 online...it's almost your raid time, ok you have 30 minutes to get a raid force online to show a legitimate intent here.....etc etc
How do you get the extra mile out of unpaid staffers on a free server? Make their lives as easy as possible (read: not behaving like tantrum-throwing five year olds). Petitions should never go in until two adults have talked to eachother in a civil manner to resolve their differences. If people exercised the most basic display of respect for eachother as human beings, the only petitions that went in would be for people who lost their faction aug to a full bank of junk.
The point of a game is to play the game, not ruin other peoples' playing of the game, you should all be ashamed of yourselves =\ And this should be in chillville.
BTW I agree with the right of way for boss-killing-raid > trash-farming-group/duo/solo(solki)
Now my serious comment: Let PUGs into Yclist and Spires, and unban that entire guild of macroquesters. Bring down the tyrannical guild pseudostructure and end the Hol-loot-caust.
I remember when the claim rules got changed, and I remember the MASSIVE sigh of relief that came wooshing out from Sunset Home. It's not the policy that's the problem, it's an enforcement issue. The solution lies in staff puting in an extra mile to investigate the disputing guilds' ability to raid the content.
You got 6 in zone, 8 online...it's almost your raid time, ok you have 30 minutes to get a raid force online to show a legitimate intent here.....etc etc
How do you get the extra mile out of unpaid staffers on a free server? Make their lives as easy as possible (read: not behaving like tantrum-throwing five year olds). Petitions should never go in until two adults have talked to eachother in a civil manner to resolve their differences. If people exercised the most basic display of respect for eachother as human beings, the only petitions that went in would be for people who lost their faction aug to a full bank of junk.
The point of a game is to play the game, not ruin other peoples' playing of the game, you should all be ashamed of yourselves =\ And this should be in chillville.
BTW I agree with the right of way for boss-killing-raid > trash-farming-group/duo/solo(solki)
Now my serious comment: Let PUGs into Yclist and Spires, and unban that entire guild of macroquesters. Bring down the tyrannical guild pseudostructure and end the Hol-loot-caust.
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Slaariel
*The Only Real Life Girl Dev*
i am not a gm but 1 group of 6 killing trash does not constitute a raid claim in my eyes and i sincerely question the sanity / brains of anyone who thinks it does
6 people in a zone with more on the way for a raid might, but if i /who all your guild and see 6 in the zone and 8 total? no
6 people in a zone with more on the way for a raid might, but if i /who all your guild and see 6 in the zone and 8 total? no
Dimmi
Dalayan Elder
I vote for punishment by polymorph. Turn all of guild A into cats and guild B into dogs for 1 month, and force-PvP flag ALL OF THEM. Then 4-chan code their forum posts for barrels of roody-poos and batman sound effect splat bubbles.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Well hello there, 2h and 3 wipes later we killed a mob with 18 people. Maybe, just maybe, you shouldn't just look who is in the zone, but also how many are online and running, before you come to the forums and make angry posts.
oozu1234
Dalayan Adventurer
This is how it should be. killing a slime is stupid. +1 for slaar
Cinn
Banned Jerk
if you are a raid leader you /who a zone.
if no one is in the zone you tell your guild to get to the zone and proceed to kill stuff.
if people are in the zone the raid leader sends a tell to them and asks what they are doing, asks if its possible to share targets in separate parts of the zone or if the entire zone will be claimed. Sometimes you'll ask for a time-frame on when they will be leaving the zone.
Sharing zones and targets that your guild does not need is beneficial to everyone. Communication goes a long way. It puts you in good standing with the server, which has a small population, and where reputation goes a long way. It stops drama, it creates friends, and it allows everyone to have fun.
However, everyone wants to progress, and disputes do happen. As a raid leader on this server for a long time I have been apart and caused many of these frustrating situations. Coming from a commercial MMO, you want to initially do whatever it takes to get what you want. You want to be a dick. You want to race to zones and fight for mobs and dispute claims. You want to bend the rules to your advantage.
What you learn over the years is that this is the exact opposite of what you want. You want to get along with as many people as possible, because in turn they will make your life as a raid leader much easier and enjoyable.
Be polite. Ask what the guilds intentions are. Respect claims, even if there are just a few people in the zone and it is very obvious that that guild is mobilizing to raid a certain zone or target.
If you do have to race for a mob. If you do have to dispute a claim. If your guild really needs that progression target and a dispute does happen, it is almost always extremely obvious who has claim to the zone. Both guilds know this.
What the 6 man claim rule did was give the SoD raiding community an easy excuse to be rude. It allows players to shut out entire 18 man capable raid forces while they slowly load boxed characters in to continue their claim. It allows a few people to ruin the fun of many.
When this rule was initially implemented the initial reaction from the player-base was shock followed by complete revulsion. In my entire time on this server I have never heard, even from people who take advantage of this rule, anything positive about the 6 man claims. It was and has always been a bad idea.
I understand the pros to this. It allows the staff to have a firm stance on what is or is not a claim. It is meant to lessen disputes. To a small degree this is probably true, yet disputes can, will and still do happen, often. GM's still have to get involved, as is extremely obvious from the bickering in this thread. Only now when the GM's have to get involved they are enforcing a rule that was hastily implemented and that the players it affects do not agree with or even support.
Raid claims are very obvious. You know when you are in the right. You know when you are in the wrong. In the rare circumstance that you do not a GM can almost always make a very respectful and accurate ruling. Claiming a zone is far from complicated.
For 18 man raid content, increase the claim number. At the same time the player-base as a whole needs to be more respectful to each-other. Disputes will always happen, some guilds will always race and fight for claims. But all the 6 man claim rule does is allow a few people to ruin the fun of many and forces the staff to enforce this poor behavior.
Obviously if you are intentionally exploiting this rule you will be punished, as you are for all rules on this server. But there are many situations where you can maliciously take advantage of this rule, and the GM's will be required to respect your claim.
Valorion's whole 2 attempts before losing your claim on a zone idea is completely horrible however. I mean there's not much else to say about that. Sorry your idea is dumb and bad and awful and if it is not blatantly obvious to you why I don't know what to tell you.
It would cause a ridiculous amount of stress and anger for the entire community and would put the staff into horrible situations and require a ton of policing and spite.
Just no.
if no one is in the zone you tell your guild to get to the zone and proceed to kill stuff.
if people are in the zone the raid leader sends a tell to them and asks what they are doing, asks if its possible to share targets in separate parts of the zone or if the entire zone will be claimed. Sometimes you'll ask for a time-frame on when they will be leaving the zone.
Sharing zones and targets that your guild does not need is beneficial to everyone. Communication goes a long way. It puts you in good standing with the server, which has a small population, and where reputation goes a long way. It stops drama, it creates friends, and it allows everyone to have fun.
However, everyone wants to progress, and disputes do happen. As a raid leader on this server for a long time I have been apart and caused many of these frustrating situations. Coming from a commercial MMO, you want to initially do whatever it takes to get what you want. You want to be a dick. You want to race to zones and fight for mobs and dispute claims. You want to bend the rules to your advantage.
What you learn over the years is that this is the exact opposite of what you want. You want to get along with as many people as possible, because in turn they will make your life as a raid leader much easier and enjoyable.
Be polite. Ask what the guilds intentions are. Respect claims, even if there are just a few people in the zone and it is very obvious that that guild is mobilizing to raid a certain zone or target.
If you do have to race for a mob. If you do have to dispute a claim. If your guild really needs that progression target and a dispute does happen, it is almost always extremely obvious who has claim to the zone. Both guilds know this.
What the 6 man claim rule did was give the SoD raiding community an easy excuse to be rude. It allows players to shut out entire 18 man capable raid forces while they slowly load boxed characters in to continue their claim. It allows a few people to ruin the fun of many.
When this rule was initially implemented the initial reaction from the player-base was shock followed by complete revulsion. In my entire time on this server I have never heard, even from people who take advantage of this rule, anything positive about the 6 man claims. It was and has always been a bad idea.
I understand the pros to this. It allows the staff to have a firm stance on what is or is not a claim. It is meant to lessen disputes. To a small degree this is probably true, yet disputes can, will and still do happen, often. GM's still have to get involved, as is extremely obvious from the bickering in this thread. Only now when the GM's have to get involved they are enforcing a rule that was hastily implemented and that the players it affects do not agree with or even support.
Raid claims are very obvious. You know when you are in the right. You know when you are in the wrong. In the rare circumstance that you do not a GM can almost always make a very respectful and accurate ruling. Claiming a zone is far from complicated.
For 18 man raid content, increase the claim number. At the same time the player-base as a whole needs to be more respectful to each-other. Disputes will always happen, some guilds will always race and fight for claims. But all the 6 man claim rule does is allow a few people to ruin the fun of many and forces the staff to enforce this poor behavior.
Obviously if you are intentionally exploiting this rule you will be punished, as you are for all rules on this server. But there are many situations where you can maliciously take advantage of this rule, and the GM's will be required to respect your claim.
Valorion's whole 2 attempts before losing your claim on a zone idea is completely horrible however. I mean there's not much else to say about that. Sorry your idea is dumb and bad and awful and if it is not blatantly obvious to you why I don't know what to tell you.
It would cause a ridiculous amount of stress and anger for the entire community and would put the staff into horrible situations and require a ton of policing and spite.
Just no.
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Cinn
Banned Jerk
I also want to state that I 100% would support a rule stating that a full 18 man raid can and would have complete right to kick out a group of 4-6 high end characters one grouping mobs in raid zones for their alts.
It is rude and unfair to the community.
But honestly guys, just stop being gigantic babies and share targets and zones as much as possible.
It is rude and unfair to the community.
But honestly guys, just stop being gigantic babies and share targets and zones as much as possible.
Tarutao
Staff Emeritus
A few clarifications before I actually get a write-up I'm happy with:
(1) The 6 man claim is intended for those times two raids/guilds are racing to get to the content to make claim. First to 6 wins.
(2) If there is no dispute, that 6 man claim can hold until the next patch. If there is nobody wanting to dispute the claim, the staff really wouldn't care if a guild sit in and claims Grobb Undercity for 8 days.
(3) If a dispute is made, the argument is that there isn't a raid force for claiming. The group whose claim is disputed has 30 minutes to finish assembling their raid force and start raiding. Having a group kill a duoable trash mob is not raiding, and if it's in an attempt to stall for time, it's squatting.
(4) If the dispute is over which raid got there first, that's a different issue altogether, and a GM can determine that.
(5) If you are wanting to claim a zone hours before your raid starts, then you better be able to have a credible raid force within 30 minutes of another raid suddenly appearing in your zone and for all you know instantaneously putting in a claim dispute petition. Abusing this system to create a repeated 30 minute inconvenience for a rival raid/guild won't be tolerated for long.
(6) A group killing trash doesn't have priority over a raid wanting to raid. This even has Yclist precedent with FWF members hunting runic spell pieces were asked to leave to allow a guild to raid that area. It's worth noting that a polite agreement about leaving certain trash mobs up during the raid for the FWF members to kill after the raid was finished was reached without staff encouragement (though the staff was encouraged by this gracious gesture of general SoD good will).
(7) If two raids are both attempting to claim something that isn't up yet, the situation gets more difficult. If there's nothing to claim and more than 1 raid wants to claim it, all parties involved will have the distinct pleasure of dealing with whichever GM has to handle the petitions over the claim of something that isn't even there. I have a few ideas on how I might handle this situation:
(a) /random 1000 -- it's quick, it gets the job done
(b) Shut the zone down -- nobody wins! Maybe the two raids will settle the next one with compromise, sharing, a spitting-for-distance competition, or even a /random 1000 on their own the next time.
(c) Lock the zone so nobody else can zone in -- both raids if they want to maintain a chance at claim will have to use only who is already there. Also, every player would have to maintain attention to the screen to be able to respond to AFK checks done in /shout randomly by me. After all, they're fighting over a mob with a random component to its spawn time, they need to be ready to go at a moment's notice. Any characters failing to respond to an AFK check would get translocated to bind (and then be unable to come back to the locked zone). If both raids still have credible forces when the mob finally spawns, then /random 1000.
It is the desire of the GM Team that most situations be handled with levels of friendliness, courtesy, and maturity that really aren't found on other MMOs. To that end, petitions like the ones described in (7) are viewed as things to be discouraged. If we have to handle "doesn't play well with others" petitions, it's not going to be a fun experience. In the case of victimization like harassment or griefing, the unpleasantness goes to the victimizer. In the case of both parties unable to work together, it's going to be all around unpleasant.
The vast majority of raid claim issues in the 14.5 months of my tenure as Lead GM have been handled with minimal staff intervention needed. I'd like the next 14.5 months to be similarly pleasant. If that means that making working these issues out without staff intervention look better by making the staff intervention on these specific issues unpleasant, then I'm willing to do that, and I've built a GM team that is capable of carrying that out. Fortunately, I think much more highly of you as a whole, and I don't think that making any of this unpleasant is going to be necessary. Even the recent Exodus / Chaotic Winds / Ikisith Main Quest Progression Raiding situation is one I think will be handled pleasantly despite some recent drama. Prove me right.
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TL;DR What Slaar said plus words. Also a few compliments for most of you.
(1) The 6 man claim is intended for those times two raids/guilds are racing to get to the content to make claim. First to 6 wins.
(2) If there is no dispute, that 6 man claim can hold until the next patch. If there is nobody wanting to dispute the claim, the staff really wouldn't care if a guild sit in and claims Grobb Undercity for 8 days.
(3) If a dispute is made, the argument is that there isn't a raid force for claiming. The group whose claim is disputed has 30 minutes to finish assembling their raid force and start raiding. Having a group kill a duoable trash mob is not raiding, and if it's in an attempt to stall for time, it's squatting.
(4) If the dispute is over which raid got there first, that's a different issue altogether, and a GM can determine that.
(5) If you are wanting to claim a zone hours before your raid starts, then you better be able to have a credible raid force within 30 minutes of another raid suddenly appearing in your zone and for all you know instantaneously putting in a claim dispute petition. Abusing this system to create a repeated 30 minute inconvenience for a rival raid/guild won't be tolerated for long.
(6) A group killing trash doesn't have priority over a raid wanting to raid. This even has Yclist precedent with FWF members hunting runic spell pieces were asked to leave to allow a guild to raid that area. It's worth noting that a polite agreement about leaving certain trash mobs up during the raid for the FWF members to kill after the raid was finished was reached without staff encouragement (though the staff was encouraged by this gracious gesture of general SoD good will).
(7) If two raids are both attempting to claim something that isn't up yet, the situation gets more difficult. If there's nothing to claim and more than 1 raid wants to claim it, all parties involved will have the distinct pleasure of dealing with whichever GM has to handle the petitions over the claim of something that isn't even there. I have a few ideas on how I might handle this situation:
(a) /random 1000 -- it's quick, it gets the job done
(b) Shut the zone down -- nobody wins! Maybe the two raids will settle the next one with compromise, sharing, a spitting-for-distance competition, or even a /random 1000 on their own the next time.
(c) Lock the zone so nobody else can zone in -- both raids if they want to maintain a chance at claim will have to use only who is already there. Also, every player would have to maintain attention to the screen to be able to respond to AFK checks done in /shout randomly by me. After all, they're fighting over a mob with a random component to its spawn time, they need to be ready to go at a moment's notice. Any characters failing to respond to an AFK check would get translocated to bind (and then be unable to come back to the locked zone). If both raids still have credible forces when the mob finally spawns, then /random 1000.
It is the desire of the GM Team that most situations be handled with levels of friendliness, courtesy, and maturity that really aren't found on other MMOs. To that end, petitions like the ones described in (7) are viewed as things to be discouraged. If we have to handle "doesn't play well with others" petitions, it's not going to be a fun experience. In the case of victimization like harassment or griefing, the unpleasantness goes to the victimizer. In the case of both parties unable to work together, it's going to be all around unpleasant.
The vast majority of raid claim issues in the 14.5 months of my tenure as Lead GM have been handled with minimal staff intervention needed. I'd like the next 14.5 months to be similarly pleasant. If that means that making working these issues out without staff intervention look better by making the staff intervention on these specific issues unpleasant, then I'm willing to do that, and I've built a GM team that is capable of carrying that out. Fortunately, I think much more highly of you as a whole, and I don't think that making any of this unpleasant is going to be necessary. Even the recent Exodus / Chaotic Winds / Ikisith Main Quest Progression Raiding situation is one I think will be handled pleasantly despite some recent drama. Prove me right.
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TL;DR What Slaar said plus words. Also a few compliments for most of you.