Relics.

Having a quested relic doesnt trivialize relics. Im not seeing how you can say this if the quest itself is long and takes multiple forces to encounter ending in a low/medium raid encounter that when finshed ALWAYS yields the drop to finish the quest and get your relic.

Saying they should only drop off high end encounters is nice but it also leaves a vast majority of people buying epics from top raiding guilds. When you yourself have stated that they should only be obtained by raiding high end mobs.

Does the Bracer of Sunbane trivialize all other bracers in the game? Is the quest so easy that it makes no other bracers worth getting or so simple that everyone has one in the smallest guilds?

Food for thought.
 
Is any of your guildies still missing any lvl 65 spell (non-relic)? Is that person still missing any lvl 65 relic? I've seen more Relics on sale than regular lvl 65 spells, so probably someone will be still missing the latters.

As far as I know, Legacy is the only guild that has ever sold relics, and since I handle selling them, I can tell you right now that within a 6 month period, less than one dozen relics have been sold ( And that's including the ones that khiz / linken and crew use to farm off of yinazara, and that has been nixed. If you don't count those, I'd say about a half dozen have been sold ).

If you haven't seen more than twelve level 65 spells in a span of 6 months than you're obviously not checking fabio or you don't have /auction on.
 
I don't like the idea of relic turnins. So long as the drop rate is reasonable and there's been no tinkering with how common one spell is over another, they should be unecessary--sure the guild might like that Relic: Another Fucking Bard Song can be turned in with a couple others for something new, but if there are a lot of Relic: That Damn Song They Play On The Radio All The Time, then that'll drop the price, and some lower level people or guilds may be able to afford them.

Zhak Morris said:
pphphhhggrraggghhhh tailor your game to my guild!

The entire server should not be balanced with Legacy as the metric and you should stop suggesting that.
 
Thinkmeats said:
I don't like the idea of relic turnins. So long as the drop rate is reasonable and there's been no tinkering with how common one spell is over another, they should be unecessary--sure the guild might like that Relic: Another Fucking Bard Song can be turned in with a couple others for something new, but if there are a lot of Relic: That Damn Song They Play On The Radio All The Time, then that'll drop the price, and some lower level people or guilds may be able to afford them.

Zhak Morris said:
pphphhhggrraggghhhh tailor your game to my guild!

The entire server should not be balanced with Legacy as the metric and you should stop suggesting that.

I don't believe Zhak was trying to cater the game just to Legacy, but to overall increase the drop rates of Relics. Perhaps I could be wrong, but I don't know. I know that we haven't got a relic spell in a long time, though.
 
Adalus,

First of all, don't make fucking phony quotes about me. From what I've experienced over the last six months as a top end raid guild, there is a huge problem with relics in general. I've posted some idea's and suggestions on how to improve them. No other guild is anywhere near where Legacy is right now, so therefore no other guild is currently experiencing the problem with relics as Legacy is.

Homogenn,

Yes you're right.. GotW sold relics 2 years ago and Ruin has sold a handful of them, but it's been a few months on their end as well. My example doesn't change much when you include those, my bad for not detailing that Legacy was the only current provider of Relics on the server.
 
Zhak Morris said:
rrowwwrrr! hiss!

images3ai1.jpg

So why is Legacy, who is as you said unique among current guilds, a good starting point to determine whether or not relics are common enough? I'm pointing out that as a tiny subset of the server population (even of the raiding population!) Legacy on its own makes a poor thermometer for the availability of relics. You, along with maybe a couple others, have in the past made that mistake--arguing for or against an item / quest / spell / mob nerf/boost based on your experiences in a very specific guild. Legacy isn't the same as all raid players; there are a host of very good reasons why that's so. Hell, you guys should be happy you're not in the same boat as the rest of us--your boat has lifewards, farmed yinz relics, and prison drops.

To be blunt, how in the world can you know there's a 'problem' with relic drops? They're not where they 'should be'? What's the metric? What are you going by? It's an arbitrary item drop in a videogame, there's nothing for you to compare it to, and you haven't made any compelling arguments that relics should be more common other than "we're the top-tier guild! we should have more!", but more than whom? By what standard? Keep in mind that I agree with you that relics should be more common, for reasons I'll get into in a moment. What I want to drive home is that basing the lion's share of your arguments on your guild tag isn't really a broad or valid perspective.

That said, I believe relics should be easier to come by--substantially so. Simply put, bots are too powerful and too important. Making relics easier to come by would lessen the tremendous impact of these old bits of data who float around and never quite leave. If you're worried about mudflation, you should be looking at items, but you should be looking twice as hard at bots. They give SoD's high end some kind of weird pokemon flavor and defeat the temporary nature of nodrop items.
 
I think that a turn in type of deal would benefit any guild, not just Legacy. Relics are important to all of us, and imo Zhak's suggestion isnt just for the benefit of Legacy, but perhaps every character that is in search of a highly desired relic.

The reason why one may not see as many lvl 65 spells as relics is that they're simply much rarer and profitable to market. Many vendors have lvl 65 spells, but only a few relics are ever in circulation. I see Plaguefang and other high-end droppables being auctioned all the time, and rarely ever do I see Giant-Banded Armor being advertised. Many people dont put in as much an effort to sell these cheaper goods (low-end droppables, non-relic spells), they just simply stick it on a vendor and forget about it.

I also disagree with quested relics, it does in a way trivialize them. The problem is that it guarantees that a given relic will drop in the end; relics are never guaranteed. If you read Rabb's statement closely, he says that relics should be obtained by raid guilds for raid guilds, so the fact that non-raiders must purchase their relics is not much of a concern. There are a couple of flaws comparing relics to the Bracelet of Sunbane. First off, relics are class-defining spells that provide a huge advantage over not having one. You will never upgrade or replace a relic (at least for now) because simply put, its a 'best' spell that is irreplacable. Bracelet of Sunbane, and also many other quested items, though nice, are not guaranteed to be end-all items. It does not completely define a class, and isnt worlds ahead of every other bracer in the game. Secondly, relics are much, much more rare than items. Comparing a quested good item to a quested relic doesnt hold much ground because items are guaranteed in some way or another. Each mob has a set loot table with usually 5ish loots, kill it a few times and you'll more than likely see every loot. You can pick and choose the mobs you want to kill, knowing in advance that it will for sure drop some of a few items that you already know of (assuming you've killed it many times before). The same cannot be said about relics. Yes, many mobs can drop relics, but you can never count on a relic dropping since they are so rare. In addition to this, in the case that a relic does not drop, you cant count on what relic it will be. In this sense, items are much easier to pick, choose, and 'farm' compared to spells, which is why quested relics would not be a good idea.

Regards,
Aeran
 
Aeran said:
I think that a turn in type of deal would benefit any guild, not just Legacy. Relics are important to all of us, and imo Zhak's suggestion isnt just for the benefit of Legacy, but perhaps every character that is in search of a highly desired relic.

Hey now, I didn't say his suggestion only benifited Legacy, just that Legacy made a poor measuring stick. Even so, I'd point out that the less-desirable relics get sold--someone eventually scribes them--so a turnin system would decrease the amount of relics on the server, and concentrate them more where they originally dropped.

edit--it's worth noting that I completely agree with the rest of your post.
 
Tbh, thinkmeats has a point regarding bots, but I don't necessarily think it's as bad as all that.

Now let me make sure I understand your arguement correctly. The only reason bots would be a problem when it comes to relics, and that they would never fade but just hang around the server, is that because they have their relics, people bot them all the time. The only problem inherent that I see what that is this: it may block other live members from progressing. The flaw with your arguement (from my perspective) is that I just don't see it happening.

For instance, Venerate has access to a bard bot with all (or almost all) relic songs. The other bards in our guild don't have theirs (or all of them). In fact, I don't have any. I think we've used our bard bot once in the last 2 months that I've seen. She certainly isn't blocking our guild from recruiting bards, nor is she blocking current bards from raiding with Venerate.

In the cases where we have bots that are played all the time, they are often of characters that are frequently on - just not on that night. In the case of having bots played all the time that aren't ever played by live players, it doesn't take long for guildmembers to revolt against the bother of botting and demand more recruitment.

Now, of course, this is just my perspective from my guild. But I just wanted to chime in that I disagreed with your assessment of the situation.

In regards to relic spells, I rather like the very difficulty of attainability. It's a challenge I enjoy, and seems to prolong the day when I will have to look back and say, "How sad. There's nothing more for me to do, now, except perhaps make a new character."
 
I know, I took a while to draft up that post (your post wasnt up yet) and I wasnt referring to any one in particular :hug:

Speculating purely from Rabb's post alone (that relics are from raid mobs for raid mobs), I dont think that a decrease of relics on the server (concentrating them into the hands of the origional obtainers) is much of a concern. I could even see how it could be intended from the reasoning in his post. I think most high-end spells and items are meant to be used by the people who origionally obtain them, which can be compared to how the best loot is no drop (to prevent farming massive pp). I would assume relics arent no drop because they are class and need specific, as well as being unpredictable in terms of drops.

I agree that the argument that "Legacy doesnt get relics, something is wrong" isnt all that strong; I think the real argument he is trying to get at is that they are terribly rare, using Legacy as the upper-bounds of the example, or in other words - Legacy raids the most high-end mobs and still doesnt get a great drop-rate on relics, I cant begin imagine how hard relics are for the other guilds (who dont raid as much) to obtain.

Regards,
Aeran
 
Allielyn said:

I agree that bot make things easier for guilds, but I don't even think they block progress. I just think the idea of botted characters hanging on after their original owners long departed is screwy as hell and encourages a bizarre-ass good 'ol boy system that's really strange. Playing people who aren't on to get them an item that dropped, or to AA them, or just because you're friends and you share characters is one thing. Characters that get passed down like family heirlooms and who have changed ownership half a dozen times just gives me the jibblies.

Bots really require a seperate thread though, this one's about relics, so I'll try to curtail my little derail here.

Aeran said:
I agree that the argument that "Legacy doesnt get relics, something is wrong" isnt all that strong; I think the real argument he is trying to get at is that they are terribly rare, using Legacy as the upper-bounds of the example, or in other words - Legacy raids the most high-end mobs and still doesnt get a great drop-rate on relics, I cant begin imagine how hard relics are for the other guilds (who dont raid as much) to obtain.

Ah, but how hard is "too hard" ? "Hard enough" ? That's the rub, there's nothing to compare it to.
 
True. I think we can agree though that relics are damn rare, compared to the demands for them (not saying supply should match demand, or even come close to it).
 
Oh, long as we're on the subject, doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that enchanters have a relic nuke given the recent boon changes? Giantkin kind of makes the relic nuke obsolete.
 
Oh, and btw, I think Zhak is trying to say that since Legacy is the top raiding guild on the server, they have the best chance of seeing relic drops (since relics are dropped by raids for raid guilds). And, even though they have the best chance of seeing relics, they still see very, very few of them. In fact, few enough that there is always a need for more; the supply doesn't meet the demand.

In this case, because relics are for raid guilds, I don't see why we can't look at the drop rate of relics for the top raid guild(s) and use them as a measuring stick for how often relics drop. And since the raid members use the spells, I don't see anything wrong with looking at the demand from them as well.

In other words, there's nothing wrong with using Legacy as a measuring stick to evaluate the supply vs. demand of relics (granted, of course, that it is comparable to other raid guilds). However, determining if that supply vs. demand is reasonable or not is more a question of server mechanics than raid guild mechanics, imo.
 
Supply and demand doesn't really mean a hell of a lot in the context of mob-dropped items. If relics were the only things they dropped, or they were player-made, or if they were sold more often, then yeah, but as it stands it's not really relevant. Additionally, PR and Vene aren't top-tier, but they do have their own share of relics--if leg were the only ones with 'em I'd be more inclined to agree. 'sides, it was a side point at the end of my post--just because it has the word "Legacy" in it doesn't mean it's got to drive everyone into a tiff. Sometimes it's hard to see out the ivory tower, that's nothing new.

Anyone think relics shouldn't be more common? I'd be interested to hear dissenting opinion.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Oh, long as we're on the subject, doesn't it seem strange to anyone else that enchanters have a relic nuke given the recent boon changes? Giantkin kind of makes the relic nuke obsolete.

I completely agree with this. From the Enchanter Spell Changes thread:
Aeran said:
Edit: looking further into this subject, I'm starting to think that these boons will effectively replace nuking (save the crazy times where you were chain nuking, now you'll be nuking/booning instead of nuking/nuking). Relic: Chaotic Visions is base 1150 damage for 285 mana (with a recast delay). With a bard and DI5 (I think it was 5, not completely sure) I was nuking for 1700+. Assuming I critted 100% of the time, I'd be doing 3400ish damage for 285 mana. On the other hand, booning the appropriate melee will mean they gain about 150 DPS or so (thats affected by haste), over 30 seconds this yeilds around 4500 damage. So you have more damage for less mana.
 
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