Relic nightfire

[gtoo]

actually junius i like this tweak because it falls more in line with druids actually being able to nuke and heal if its 3.5 cast time and a longer recast time i might actually take that nuke over flame strike or magic nuke if out doors as it is now ive had the nuke for about a week cast it 1 time to see it then dememed it and haven't loaded it sense

you do not see a problem with

I don't understand why the Relic nuke would be made better, instead of Flamestrike being changed.


Relic: Nightfire- 370mana 1500cr -25adjust 3.5sec 4.05dmg/mana

Relic: Bladewind- 350mana 1520mr -25adjust 5.75sec 4.34dmg/mana

Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace- 510mana 2250fr -10adjust 6sec 4.41dmg/mana

?

 

[seferon]

wtg not reading what i said i said have the cast time down but the recast time up to keep it the same time efficiency chain nuking it. But have the cast time down so that we can nuke every once and a while with our relic nuke while main healing a group. currently i WILL NOT nuke with relic nuke if im the main heal because its currently 7seconds that i cant heal the tank were as if it was a 3.5 second nuke and 2.5 second recast or what ever to make it equal i would consider loading it over flame strike.

 

[Garluk]

Following up on Junius' post....

Edit: I forgot to allow for fizzle time for gem resets. Adjusting numbers with this edit.

Nightfire: 3.5 sec cast, 3.15 sec cast with AAs (if they apply to cast times this slow), 1500 base dmg, 2.5 sec recast. So with no dmg focus (which are enormously easier to get for cold than for magic) we get a raw dps figure of 1500 / (3.15 + 2.5) = 265.5

Bladewind: 5.75 sec cast (no quick dmg AAs), 1520 base dmg, 2.5 sec recast. Raw dps figure of 1520 / (5.75 + 2.5) = 184.2

mage Archaic: Sun Storm: 5.75 sec cast (no quick dmg AAs), 1745 base dmg, 2.5 recast. Raw dps of 1745 / (5.75 + 2.5) = 211.5

I usually alternate archaic with relic rain so I hadn't noticed the recast delay.

So, druids will be 2nd best healers AND 2nd best nukers. Something's not right

 

[seferon]

realize im not thinking up the right numbers ill admit that i don't feel like figuring it out but what im saying is make it so the dps output stays the same as the way the spell is currently

 

[vistachiri]

Following up on Junius' post....

Nightfire: 3.5 sec cast, 3.15 sec cast with AAs (if they apply to cast times this slow), 1500 base dmg, 2.5 sec recast. So with no dmg focus (which are enormously easier to get for cold than for magic) we get a raw dps figure of 1500 / (3.15 + 2.5) = 265.5

Bladewind: 5.75 sec cast (no quick dmg AAs), 1520 base dmg, 0 sec recast. Raw dps figure of 1520 / 5.75 = 264.3

mage Archaic: Sun Storm: 5.75 sec cast (no quick dmg AAs), 1745 base dmg, 2.5 recast. Raw dps of 1745 / (5.75 + 2.5) = 211.5

Wow! I hadn't realized that chaining mage archaic was LESS dps than chaining Bladewind. I usually alternate archaic with relic rain so I hadn't noticed the recast delay.

So, druids will be 2nd best healers AND 2nd best nukers. Something's not right

Tbh I'm gonna go out on a lim and say this is a pretty hilarious april fools.

If not, well I always have imeriaz

As for the archaic nuke, hadn't realized there was a recast, maybe that recast can go away?

 

[gtoo]

wtg not reading what i said i said have the cast time down but the recast time up to keep it the same time efficiency chain nuking it. But have the cast time down so that we can nuke every once and a while with our relic nuke while main healing a group. currently i WILL NOT nuke with relic nuke if im the main heal because its currently 7seconds that i cant heal the tank were as if it was a 3.5 second nuke and 2.5 second recast or what ever to make it equal i would consider loading it over flame strike.

On this note, I would like cleric 62 nuke to have its cast time lowered to 4ish seconds also, so that clerics can be in the same boat as druids in reguards to nuking between heals.

 

[Jun]

I think for the best dps output, Magicians wouldn't be chaining Archaic anyway, due to multi raining etc. Could be wrong, I just started playing one occasionally :/

 

[seferon]

first of all dont have numbers for quick dmg aas atm so not calculating them

how about

nightfire(now) 6.00 sec cast 1500 base dmg, 0 sec recast raw dps figure of 1500 / 6.00 = 250

nightfire(mabye) 3.50 sec cast 1500 base dmg 2.5 sec recast raw dps figure 1500 / 6.00 = 250

so the dmg / time or mana dosent change at all ...

 

[Garluk]

I think for the best dps output, Magicians wouldn't be chaining Archaic anyway, due to multi raining etc. Could be wrong, I just started playing one occasionally :/

As a general rule, most groups/raids don't want multiple mobs in camp at the same time unless one of them is mezzed. Raining on mezzed mobs makes the chanters speak louder and say things like "who #*^%@ broke mez?", I dunno what is up with that.

Add to that the fact that rains have a HUGELY lower chance to crit and they can only hit 2 targets now instead of 3. I cast relic rain because it does have a good dmg/mana ratio and a much lower aggro component. So, I can still do some dps while I'm letting my aggro ease up from casting a single target nuke.

 

[Jun]

So with this change, you have the same DMG output but the ability to heal or DoT more efficiently during cooldown. I still stand by the fact that Relic: Nightfire is fine, and that the other spells should be looked at. There is no problem with Druids whatsoever atm, what really warrants this upgrade?

 

[vistachiri]

As a general rule, most groups/raids don't want multiple mobs in camp at the same time unless one of them is mezzed. Raining on mezzed mobs makes the chanters speak louder and say things like "who #*^%@ broke mez?", I dunno what is up with that.

yeah srsly. That's why I like chanters who understand ae's and put in the extra effort to mez them 5 feet away, that and yelling at the tank to "MOVE THE $&*$@!%$ THING OVER THERE!!!!".

Though there's a myriad of situations in which one would want to chain the archaic rather than rains. For one, the highest fire rain is sirocco, and it doesnt really cut it. On extremely mr mobs w/less than that in fire resists for example. Multiples in camp being mezzed, finishing up low on health mobs w/out having to mash the scars of sigil button. Mostly out of mana last ditch efforts (3% ish for example being needed for a single tar dd 5% for a rain, you have 3%, what do you do?). Probably quite a few more im forgetting about as well.

 

[Mythryn]

first of all dont have numbers for quick dmg aas atm so not calculating them

how about

nightfire(now) 6.00 sec cast 1500 base dmg, 0 sec recast raw dps figure of 1500 / 6.00 = 250

nightfire(mabye) 3.50 sec cast 1500 base dmg 2.5 sec recast raw dps figure 1500 / 6.00 = 250

so the dmg / time or mana dosent change at all ...

Nightfire DOES have a recast time of 2.5 seconds, but you don't notice it because the FIZZLE time (the length your spell gems are grayed out) is also 2.5 seconds. Up the recast to 5 or 6 seconds so that druids can't chain it and be more efficient nukes than mages, while also being leaps ahead of shaman in healing power.

 

[seferon]

correct i was ignoring the 2.5 base recast time for all spells cause i thought that was a given :toot:

edit so add 3.5 to the 2.5 base = 6 me and jose agree

 

[Valero]

On this note, I would like cleric 62 nuke to have its cast time lowered to 4ish seconds also, so that clerics can be in the same boat as druids in reguards to nuking between heals.

As Gtoo says I would like shamans be also in the same boat as druids: I would like relic shaman dot to have its cast time lowered to 4ish seconds also, I want to dot when I am main healer also

 

[Garluk]

Let's take a look at chain nuking scenarios comparing the old 6 sec Nightfire to a 3.5 sec Nightfire and contrast that to mages using relic, archaic and relic rain. All cast times for druids are reduced 10% for quick dmg AAs. If they don't apply to nukes with cast times this low, someone please tell me.

Nightfire (new): 3.15 cast, 2.5 recast, 1500 dmg.
Nightfire (old): 5.4 cast, 2.5 recast, 1500 dmg.
Wrath of the Skies: 2.93 cast, 2.5 recast, 1510 dmg (outdoor only).
Flamestrike: 2.7 cast, 6.5 recast, 1225 dmg.

Bladewind: 5.75 cast, 0 recast, 2.5 sec fizzle, 1520 dmg.
Relic: Storm of the elements: 6 cast, 12 recast, 860 dmg.
Archaic: Sun Storm: 5.75 cast, 2.5 recast, 1745 dmg.

Old Nightfire:

Druid (outdoor):
Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath, Wrath
Total cast time: (2.93 * 10) + (2.5 fizzle * 9) = 51.8 sec.
Total dmg: 1510 * 10 = 15100
Dps: 291.5

Druid (indoor):
Flamestrike, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire
Total cast time: (5.4 * 5) + (2.7 * 5) + (2.5 * 9) = 63 sec
Total dmg: (1500 * 5) + (1225 * 5) = 13625
Dps: 216.3

New Nightfire:

Druid (outdoor):
Nightfire, Wrath, Nightfire, Wrath, Nightfire, Wrath, Nightfire, Wrath, Nightfire, Wrath.
Total cast time: (3.15 + 2.93) * 5 + (2.5 fizzle * 9) = 52.9 sec.
Total dmg: (1500 + 1510) * 5 = 15050
Dps: 284.5

Druid (indoor):
Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Nightfire, Flamestrike, Nightfire, Nightfire, Flamestrike
Total cast time: (3.15 * 7) + (2.7 * 4) + (2.5 * 10) = 57.85 sec
Total dmg: (1500 * 7) + (1225 * 4) = 15400
Dps: 266.2

Mage:

Mage (chaining archaic):
Archaic, Archaic, Archaic, Archaic, Archaic, Archaic, Archaic, Archaic
Total cast time: (5.75 * 8) + (2.5 * 7) = 63.5 sec
Total dmg: 1745 * 8 = 13960
Dps: 219.8 + 90 from relic pet = 309.8

Mage (nukes and relic rain):
Archaic, Rain, Archaic, Archaic, Rain, Archaic, Archaic
Total cast time: (5.75 * 5) + (6 * 2) + (2.5 * 6) = 55.75
Total dmg: (1745 * 5) + ((860 * 3) * 2) = 13885
Dps: 249.1 + 90 from relic pet = 339.1

Mage (chaining relic):
Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind, Bladewind
Total cast time: (5.75 * 8) + (2.5 * 7) = 63.5
Total dmg: 1520 * 8 = 12160
Dps: 191.5 + 90 from relic pet = 281.5

Mage (alternating relic nuke with relic rain):
Bladewind, Rain, Bladewind, Bladewind, Rain, Bladewind, Bladewind
Total cast time: (5.75 * 5) + (6 * 2) + (2.5 * 6) = 55.75
Total dmg: (1520 * 5) + ((860 * 3) * 2) = 12760
Dps: 228.9 + 90 from relic pet = 318.9

Summary:

Druid outdoor with old Nightfire: 291.5 (better to chain cast Wrath)
Druid indoor with old Nightfire: 216.3
Druid outdoor with new Nightfire: 284.5
Druid indoor with new Nightfire: 266.2
Mage (chaining archaic): 219.8 (not including ~90 from relic pet)
Mage (alternating archaic with relic rain): 249.1 (not including ~90 from relic pet)
Mage (chaining relic): 191.5 (not including ~90 from relic pet)
Mage (alternating relic with relic rain): 228.9 (not including ~90 from relic pet)

Conclusion:

Druids already outnuke mages when outdoors and almost beat them indoors. In fact, even if the mage chain nukes his ARCHAIC he can't outdps a druid outdoors without his pet. If the cast time on Nightfire is reduced and mage nukes do not receive a substantial decrease in cast times and/or an increase in base dmg then mages will be totally obsolete except when summoned items are needed. Even before any changes are made to Nightfire, the dps difference between druids and mages is so close that a raid can't justify bringing a mage unless they are already full of druids. This is clearly borne out by the mathematical data presented above.


Edit: forgot to reduce old Nightfire for quick dmg cast time of 5.4. Numbers updated.

 

[Valero]

Oh wait, it is 3.5 secs :keke:

 

[seferon]

lets not ignore the mana efficiency of the spell all together shall we?

all numbers based on brandars post

druid
flamestrike 3.36
nightfire 4.05
wrath 3.82

mage
archaic 4.65
relic 4.34
relic raind 5.60 (one target)

old nightfire

druid outdoor = 3950 mana
druid indoor = 1850(nightfire) 1825(flamestrike) = 3675

new nightfire
druid outdoor = 1975 + 1850 = 3825
druid indoor = 2590 + 1460 = 4050


mage
pet = feel well nearly you know what i mean

chain archaic = 3000
archaic / relic rain = 1875 + 920 = 2795
bladewind = 2800
bladewin/relicrain= 920 + 1750 = 2670

anyone notice a diffrence?

 

[Ginam]

Depends how long your fights last.
Assuming mc7, ft20, 8000mana (Buffed), 30 mana/regen (from buffs), scm and appropriate specializations

New nightfire indoors
4050/57.85 = 69.8 mana/sec
Reduce by 29% for mc7 (7%), spec (10%), aa(12%?) = 49.6mana/s
Minus 8.5 mana/sec for mana regen = 41.1mana/s
8000/41.1 ~ 3 minutes

Archaic and Rain
2795/55.75 = 50.1 Mana/sec
Reduce by same = 35.6 Mana/s
Minus 8.5 mana/sec for mana regen = 27.1mana/s
8000/27.1 ~ 5minutes

Adjust for mana con, mana regen, mana as needed. Higher mana regen/mana works in favour of the mage, increased mana con works in favour of the druid

Ginam

 

[kurdt]

ok well i dont know much about mages and wizards , bee playing a druid for the most part . but what would the results be if you acounted druids argo , wizards criting more with primals and stuff . (i dont know what aa's the mages have that help them nuke for more or anything like that) i think these changes to the charts would make the results alot different .

p.s. i dont know how you would calulate argo from chain nuking .

also just puting my in put in

 

[seferon]

by the 6th nuke i would have taken agro from a war my the 8-9 i would have agro from most any class that was specifically trying to make sure i didnt pull agro and was just pushing normal agro but yes we are avoiding that becuase it dosent have a number viable parse