Relic: Fiery Warcry of Tarhyl

G

Ginam

Dalayan Adventurer
A while ago, before 2.0, Relic: Fiery Warcry of Tarhyl lost its haste component to make more then say 2 bards useful on a raid. Since 2.0, the numbers in the raid have gone down, and so with a maximum of 3 bards on a raid, this isn't really needed now. Also, the song doesn't stack with cunning of the beast, which is currently on all our spell dps casters since you only need one beast to cunning all of them now. So it makes the song 13% increased spell damage to our procs right now. Cunning does more spell damage, and also has a -agro component.

I suggest that the haste component is put back in at its old value, 30%, and that it is made to stack with cunning of the beast.

Ginam
 
I think having it stack with Cunning might be overpowered. But it doesn't hurt to ask (usually).

Just my 2 cts.
 
I think having it stack with cunning would be a tad overpowered also in its current state.

That being said it would be nice if the spell was taken out of the "Almost Useless" category when it comes to raids.
 
Garluk said:
I think having it stack with Cunning might be overpowered. But it doesn't hurt to ask (usually).

Just my 2 cts.
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I don't really see it that way. Cunning is a level 62 beastlord spell that increases dps of casters by ~15% and decreases agro by 20%
Assuming a raid has a make up of 6 melee dps, 6 spell dps, 6 healer support, (though in general it would probably be more healer/support), the beastlord cunning is increasing the spell dps of 6 by 15%. If the bard song doesn't stack with cunning its increasing the dps of the melee group by 15%.
In that case, a level 63 beastlord spell is much more poweful then a level 65 relic bard song.

Ginam

Edit: Math for those to lazy to do it

Caster damage increase from focus is 29% (di7 +ice/fire focus) making caster base damage 129%
Cunning will add 20% to this so 149/129 = 1.155 or roughly 15% dps increase.

For melee, assuming 43% haste item and glory (77% haste) base attack rate is 220%
With extra 30% from fiery warcry, 250/220 = 1.136 or roughly 14% dps increase.
 
Ginam said:
I don't really see it that way. Cunning is a level 62 beastlord spell that increases dps of casters by ~15% and decreases agro by 20%
Assuming a raid has a make up of 6 melee dps, 6 spell dps, 6 healer support, (though in general it would probably be more healer/support), the beastlord cunning is increasing the spell dps of 6 by 15%. If the bard song doesn't stack with cunning its increasing the dps of the melee group by 15%.
In that case, a level 62 beastlord spell is much more poweful then a level 65 relic bard song.

Ginam

Edit: Math for those to lazy to do it

Caster damage increase from focus is 29% (di7 +ice/fire focus) making caster base damage 129%
Cunning will add 20% to this so 149/129 = 1.155 or roughly 15% dps increase.

For melee, assuming 43% haste item and glory (77% haste) base attack rate is 220%
With extra 30% from fiery warcry, 250/220 = 1.136 or roughly 14% dps increase.
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I don't have a problem with the haste component, it's the spell dmg boost that I was concerned with. Increasing the dps of the melees by 14% is not much of a boost to raid dps (squat * 1.14 is still pretty much squat); boosting caster dps by 15% is. Some of the recent changes that I've witnessed indicate to me that Wiz is trying to bring melee / caster dps closer together (a good thing, IMO). Having the spell focus from Fiery Warcry stack with Cunning would undermine this.

If your 6 melee dps is composed of 1 each war/sk/bard/bst/rog/rng you'd see an increase of approximately 172. ((125+100+200+150+325+325) * .14 = 171.5)

If your 6 spell dps is 3 wiz, 2 mag and 1 necro you would have an increase of approximately 326. ((400+400+400+325+325+325) * .15 = 326)

These numbers are just rough estimates, but are reasonably close (pets included).

Your raid makeup will vary, but you will nearly always have a war and sk. We have to assume that a bard and bst will be present since that is the point of the post and I tossed in a rng/rog as they are also usually present and bring our total to 6. If you have a monk instead of the sk, then add approx 25 to the melee increase ((280 - 100) * .14 = 25).

For spell dps, there are only 3 choices and I might be underestimating their dps by a tad. This is assuming full relics since you mentioned DI7 and other advanced focus effects. These dps increasing mods are also generally much easier to get than comparable melee dps boosts.

I would support raising the overhaste component back to its former level as a way of closing the gap between melee and caster dps. Having Fiery Warcry stack with Cunning would increase this gap.
 
Then maybe cunning is extremely overpowering. I dont' see why my level 65 relic should pale in comparison to a level 63 beastlord spell, what about decreasing the spell damage component a little in cunning to say 15%, and making the bard focus component 10%.

Ginam
 
Dunno, cunning though is one of the primary reasons I've seen a beastlord brought on a raid though, bards have far far far more utility in a raid environment. I definitely support an upgrade of the bard relic though.
 
vistachiri said:
Dunno, cunning though is one of the primary reasons I've seen a beastlord brought on a raid though, bards have far far far more utility in a raid environment. I definitely support an upgrade of the bard relic though.
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A properly geared Beastlord is quite usefull as an offtank, especially if you count their pet in. Same goes for DPS.
 
Ginam said:
Then maybe cunning is extremely overpowering. I dont' see why my level 65 relic should pale in comparison to a level 63 beastlord spell, what about decreasing the spell damage component a little in cunning to say 15%, and making the bard focus component 10%.

Ginam
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Sounds like a good idea to me.
 
Manluas said:
A properly geared Beastlord is quite usefull as an offtank, especially if you count their pet in. Same goes for DPS.
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Offtank for a group yeah most assuredly, but for a raid?
 
As a bard I have to compleatly agree with Ginam in this situation. Maybe some tweaking of the damage increase is nessarry, but overall having the haste back will make this song much more desirable to use.
 
But if I'm not mistaken, bards can be more dps than beastlords, even counting pets in. I think cunning is fine, mage relic DS also isn't the most used and useful relic all the time, but quite situational, and that doesn't mean you have to nerf other spells for it.

Adding haste sounds fine to me, but nerfing cunning... Pretty much all of bst buffs can be replaced for most classes - either with self buffs or AAs.
 
nerfing BLs in any way would definitely be a mistake... But this bard relic is pretty much worthless, so a tweak to make it a bit less powerful, but still stack with cunning, might be a good idea.

haste+spell crits would be a pretty nifty song if it stacked with everything.
 
i would have to agree with Aaubert, relic spell focus for bards are pretty useless, especially with this 15 class raiding bonus. Maybe adjust the spell focus effect to a less degree, and having it stack with cunning would be a good choice.
 
If you don't have a beastlord around this song compensates very well. And it's not limited to a single group like Cunning is.
Stacking would be totally overpowered too, and I think it's the same+dmg slot in parser.

I guess some haste component should indeed be reintroduced , but 30% it was ? lil too much from my point of view. Make it 15-20 maybe ?
 
Even tho i dont really play anymore i agree 100% i never used this song after the change to it. If it can't be made to stack with cunning maybe have the haste and a small like 15 dmg proc?
 
Dzillon said:
If you don't have a beastlord around this song compensates very well. And it's not limited to a single group like Cunning is.
Stacking would be totally overpowered too, and I think it's the same+dmg slot in parser.

I guess some haste component should indeed be reintroduced , but 30% it was ? lil too much from my point of view. Make it 15-20 maybe ?
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Level 64 Warchant of the tribes is an overhaste already in the 15-20 range. Nor does it make sense that a bard Relic can compensate for the loss of a 63 beastlord spell.

I would fully approve of adding back in the original 30% overhaste, reducing the spell damage a little, reducing cunning spell damage a little, and having them stack.
 
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