Ranger DPS (vs Rogue too!)

[Caoimhe]

buff themselves with procs etc

I think this is a moot point, as the main comparison is between rogue melee DPS and ranger ranged DPS, which is unaffected by any proc buffs a ranger can cast (and I would like to add, all non-clicky proc buffs, AFAIK).

EDIT: Corrected on that point.

Another thing I would like to add is that the best droppable bow for rangers is Ashenstrike, while rogues get Bonded Blade of the Torturer, which is, to my understand, droppable and far better than Ashenstrike.

I don't have much else to add, though, since I am only a 55/11aa ranger. I just want to say is that I can't disagree with rogues needing a DPS bump, or some other utility (I have always been keen on the idea of a class creating openings for others to take advantage of; Example: Rogue1 uses CreateOpening1, Mob <OpeningMessage1>, the next kick in X seconds has massively increased damage and stuns. Rogue1 uses CreateOpening2, Mob <OpeningMessage2>, Rogue2 has five seconds to backstab for guaranteed crit and a weak DoT).

EDIT: Yes, I added the Bonded Blade of the Torturer just moments ago... I got the stats from Sheck's

 

[Brimztone]

Avoid AoE?
War, Pal,SK, Rog, Brd can avoid AOE also.. just use a BOW!!!

The only class out of those 5 that I could possibly do some sort of DPS ranged is a bard with songs. The point is the Ranger's ability to avoide AEs and still outdps most other classes is something that is a little overpowering. When avoiding AEs and such, there should be a trade-off involved.

I think this is a moot point, as the main comparison is between rogue melee DPS and ranger ranged DPS, which is unaffected by any proc buffs a ranger can cast (and I would like to add, all non-clicky proc buffs, AFAIK).

I may be far off, but don't Rangers get proc buffs like "Quiver of *insert type of proc here*" that add a proc like a DD?

 

[Tryfaen]

There are 4(?) 17dmg piercers for rogues.

more than that, and several are dropable. probably half of them are obtainable by exp groups.

Not to mention that the many kinds of weapons rogue can use, the many kind of procs they can use.

you cannot be serious...

 

[Jun]

Oh, forgot about the HHK one, so thats 5... didn't know there were any others so that's news to me.

 

[Caoimhe]

The only class out of those 5 that I could possibly do some sort of DPS ranged is a bard with songs. The point is the Ranger's ability to avoide AEs and still outdps most other classes is something that is a little overpowering. When avoiding AEs and such, there should be a trade-off involved.

There is a trade-off involved, the loss of money. Whether the trade-off is balanced or not is what you should question. While, again, I have not raided, I do believe that having to continually pay for arrows is decent enough of a trade-off to justify high DPS, but not necessarily an almost-guaranteed higher DPS than other classes, if that really is the case.

ADDED: Throatseeker is listed on the wiki as 18 DMG, is that accurate?

 

[Garluk]

Throatseeker is secondary only. You can't BS with it.

 

[Caoimhe]

Ooops, didn't notice that.

 

[Garluk]

Rangers get 3 bow proc buffs. Quiver of Flame is a fire based 130 DD targeted AE with a 25 ft blast radius and no resist mod, Quiver of Cold is a single target 160 DD that is cold based and has no resist mod, and Quiver of Sun is a single target 175 DD that also has an attack debuff and blinds the target. QoS will get your ass summoned.....quick.

Icerend is the 65 ranger cold based nuke. It is 875 DD with no resist mod, has a 0.5 sec cast time, a 2 sec fizzle time (I'll explain why this is important), and a 12 sec recast. I almost never nuke when bowing, not even during chanter curses. The reason for this is that once I cast a spell, I can't fire another arrow until my spell gems reset. This takes 2 seconds (the fizzle time value). So, in the time lost while casting 1 nuke that likely could be resisted I could have fired 1.5 arrows. I nuke mostly during melee only since autoattack doesn't have to wait for spell gems to reset; as soon as you finish casting, the blades are slashing.

Saying any other melee-oriented class can do any kind of respectable ranged dps is just ludicrous (bards, imo, are a support class that is ranged dps with some melee skills). Rogues, however, can joust the mob (run in, bs, then run back out) to avoid whirlwind, ramp, huge DSes, etc. I'm not saying that isn't a pain in the ass, but it is better than standing back and just throwing dirty looks at the mob.

As for ranger utility, we have lots of utility at the group level. On raids, we are pretty much limited to having a single buff that 3/4 of the raid will click off if they see you cast it.

When avoiding AEs and such, there should be a trade-off involved.

There is. We have to pay money to use our bows effectively. I can burn through a full summoning of Heartseekers in about 15 mins. The recast on the spell is 2 hours. For the other 1:45, I am using arrows that I fletched myself. I spend from 100 to 350pp from my own pocket per raid.

 

[vistachiri]

I think this is a moot point, as the main comparison is between rogue melee DPS and ranger ranged DPS, which is unaffected by any proc buffs a ranger can cast (and I would like to add, all non-clicky proc buffs, AFAIK).

Another thing I would like to add is that the best droppable bow for rangers is Ashenstrike, while rogues get Bonded Blade of the Torturer, which is, to my understand, droppable and far better than Ashenstrike.

I don't have much else to add, though, since I am only a 55/11aa ranger. I just want to say is that I can't disagree with rogues needing a DPS bump, or some other utility (I have always been keen on the idea of a class creating openings for others to take advantage of; Example: Rogue1 uses CreateOpening1, Mob <OpeningMessage1>, the next kick in X seconds has massively increased damage and stuns. Rogue1 uses CreateOpening2, Mob <OpeningMessage2>, Rogue2 has five seconds to backstab for guaranteed crit and a weak DoT).

EDIT: Yes, I added the Bonded Blade of the Torturer just moments ago... I got the stats from Sheck's

quote all of what I said next time instead of taking it out of context to try and prove a non-existant point. Proc's, etc. The etc, including hp buffs, runspeed buffs, atk buffs, etc, etc, etc. It was also stated earlier that I was in no way relating those things to the dps argument, simply pointing them out as a class balance issue as a WHOLE. Oh and I'm reasonably sure that something that has Quiver in the name is going to affect arrows somehow.

Oh and as for the money thing, with the ranger revamp I'm fairly certain that a ranger can outfarm every single other class in the game at the moment, having virtually no downtime whatsoever. That alone should make up the cost, and would even pull up a considerable profit had $ not been nerfed into oblivion.

Let us not forget that rangers do not "need" arrows to go join a group, just as clerics do not "need" peridots to go join a group. Likewise that holds for any class that uses reagents. Necro's do not need to bring along rubies, mages do not need to bring fire opals or pearls, enchanters do not need to bring peridots, neither do wizards, nor beastlords, or hell any other class that needs reagents. If rangers could only use bows, and there were no lower damage arrows (and yes even clickies, and summoned one's) widely available, then I'd see the point. As it stands, well just go join a group with a mage. At least then we'd do dps by proxy. As for raids yes, they do need arrows to be effective I suppose, Probably a fletching revamp is in order to take down the cost rather than allow the current state of things.

 

[Garluk]

Having the Bonded Blade of the Torturer flagged as droppable is ridiculous. My parses (prior to the dmg formula for rogue backstab getting the recent boost) showed that about 40% of rogue dps comes from backstab. This means that the BBoT is about 95% as powerful as the best raid-dropped poker. By comparison, that means that all bows below Woe should also be droppable as Woe is about 15% better.

If I were a rogue that had recently gotten a 17 dmg poker as a raid drop, I'd be upset that a casual player with enough AAs and a big bank acct could do nearly as much dps as I could with full raid gear.

 

[Caoimhe]

I completely forgot about Quiver of Flame, etc, as I don't have them yet. And I apologise for taking your quote out of context, as I thought the etc was a free standing clause. Will fix quote.

As for raids yes, they do need arrows to be effective I suppose, Probably a fletching revamp is in order to take down the cost rather than allow the current state of things.

There was a fletching revamp in the works, but the dev working on it (Maimai, I believe) disappeared before it was ever finished.

 

[Jun]

What is the approximate DPS decrease going from Heartseeker arrows to regular Seeking arrows (Magi summoned)?

 

[Caoimhe]

What is the approximate DPS decrease going from Heartseeker arrows to regular Seeking arrows (Magi summoned)?

1 point of damage on an arrow equals +10% to the damage equation, so a Seeking Arrow is +30%, a Heartseeker Arrow is +90%. 130% is appox. 68% of the damage of 190%. So about 32% decrease. Inversely, 190% is approx. a 46% increase over 130%.

 

[Garluk]

What is the approximate DPS decrease going from Heartseeker arrows to regular Seeking arrows (Magi summoned)?

The formula for arrow dps was changed recently. Each point of arrow dmg now adds 10% to bow dps. So, seeking arrows are 3 dmg so you get 130% bow dps. Heartseekers are 9 dmg, so 190%. Dropping from Heartseekers to Seeking would thus be about a 1/3 reduction or going from Seeking to Heartseekers would be about a 50% increase.

(190 - 130) / 190 = 31.6% loss going from Seeking to Heartseekers

(190 - 130) / 130 = 46.2% increase from Seeking to Heartseekers

Both numbers are valid, just depends on which way you are looking at it.

 

[Caoimhe]

The formula for arrow dps was changed recently. Each point of arrow dmg now adds 10% to bow dps.

It previously was 7.5% increase, so it used to be 122.5% and 167.5%. Upgrading from Seeking to Heartseeker resulted in approx. a 37% increase, while downgrading from Heartseeker to Seeking resulted in a 27% loss.

 

[Garluk]

It previously was 7.5% increase, so it used to be 122.5% and 167.5%. Upgrading from Seeking to Heartseeker resulted in approx. a 37% increase, while downgrading from Heartseeker to Seeking resulted in a 27% loss.

This was also when Endless Quiver did not work with any arrows that had a dmg value over 3. I have a 65 mage. Prior to this change I cast Heartseekers once. Having a 100% loss on arrows that cost close to 2pp each to fletch made using anything above 3 dmg prohibitively expensive.

 

[Garluk]

Oh and as for the money thing, with the ranger revamp I'm fairly certain that a ranger can outfarm every single other class in the game at the moment, having virtually no downtime whatsoever. That alone should make up the cost, and would even pull up a considerable profit had $ not been nerfed into oblivion.

Yeah, I'd much rather be somewhere farming greens and light blues for a little cash than be out making real exp. As for cash farming, my mage is almost as good as are druids, necros, bards and most of the other classes that have a good skillset for soloing.

On Live, it was a common practice to give the first gem that dropped to the cleric in the group to cover his expense for peridots. Not ONCE has a group ever offered to cover my arrow expenses. While other classes are saving $$$ towards gear upgrades, charms, augs, etc, rangers have to set aside time to farm PP to maintain our group/raid desirability. I, and I believe I speak for most rangers, just look on this as part of what we have to do as a class.

 

[Slippers1]

So additional monetary expense jusifies reprocussionless dps higher than that of a class whose worth lies solely on their dps? syduck:

 

[Garluk]

So additional monetary expense jusifies reprocussionless dps higher than that of a class whose worth lies solely on their dps? syduck:

Reading comprehension is your friend. From page 2 of this thread, and later quoted at least once....

Are rogues currently underpowered? Probably a bit. Are rangers currently overpowered? Probably a bit less than rogues are underpowered.

 

[Caoimhe]

This was also when Endless Quiver did not work with any arrows that had a dmg value over 3. I have a 65 mage. Prior to this change I cast Heartseekers once. Having a 100% loss on arrows that cost close to 2pp each to fletch made using anything above 3 dmg prohibitively expensive.

That was just for comparison sake, nothing more.