Ranger DPS (vs Rogue too!)

A

Alton

Dalayan Beginner
I know our servers rangers are going to put a price on my head, but I just have to whine a bit. I know I can't be the only one thinking this.
In short, ranger dps in the high-end is either silly over powered, rogues need another tweaking, or we need official word that roles have been redefined.

As it stands now, rangers can outdistance most raid mob aoe's in the game, doing at least rogue dps, while generating less aggro.

I haven't a clue how it parses prior to IP, but for reference I'm talking about Rangers with Woes, and Rogues with Demonshears..

I only started parsing again a week or two ago, but here is a smattering of ranger #'s:
~523dps vs Taesh, (rogue, 371dps, same fight)
~605dps vs. A congealed liquid - lower thaz water trash, L65 iirc - (rogue, 500dps same fight)
~612dps vs. An earthly warden - lower thaz earth trash, yellow iirc - (Rogue, ~410 that fight)

Another thing to add, is that our chanters giantkin'd the rogue (me) through most of these raids/fights, not the ranger.
Silly them are still in the mindset that the rogue is the dps machine...

Anyway, if this is intentional, great. Let me know and I'll get over it.
Otherwise, I'd love to see a GM take a few test characters (easy to dupe 2x uber forsaken's or something) against some kind of test mob.
 
I remembering laughing at a friend when he said rng dps was something like twice that of a rogue, but parsers don't lie. Rangers out dps a rogue by far or can anyway. I won't comment on whether or not rogues dps should be upped or rng should be downed, as far as I'm concerned one needs to be better than the other or there's no real point in choosing one or the other except by whether you want to backstab or range for damage. I like to think rangers should be the better dps though, and the reason to go with rogue over ranger is the ability to hide/sneak pickpocket etc.
 
Rogues have kind of always been shafted on SoD. I don't doubt these numbers at all.

Bow DPS needs to come down. I don't care if you have to press a button every 3 seconds ... rogues have to press a button every 6 seconds, and they don't whine for an auto-backstab.
 
rab said:
and they don't whine for an auto-backstab.
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man if i had auto backstab id be even awesomer.

In the spirit of not nerfing rangers, I propose the following:
the BS damage modifier that was adjusted upwards then back down again could be looked at again for a possible upwards adjustment again so that rogues taking AEs/whirlwinds/rampages(hi monks who can just feign it off :mad: ) can do similar dps to a bowing ranger who avoids nearly all damage, does more dps, and generates less agro while doing it(a mob is more likely to turn and beat down a rogue then run across a room and lay the smack down on a ranger).

edit: or nerf rangers
 
Just playing the devil's advocate: there is the point that Ranger bow dps is also dependent upon reagents.
 
its not like arrows are rare.


edit:
to expand on my arguement against reagents I do not believe that just because a ranger has to say /t mage arrows, they should be able to do:

1. out dps rogues by a good margin
2. outrange most AEs
3. avoid whirlwind
4. avoid rampage

while a rogue does not have to send a tell asking for reagents gets to do the following:

1. be a pain for healers
2. generate more agro
3. do inferior dps
4. die from monster abilities more often
 
9 dmg arrows are on a 2 hour cooldown sir

To Rab: Rogues do DPS whether they backstab constantly or not, archery is different
 
Rangers get spells and don't take AE's and do more damage than rogues. Why is there an argument? They need to be toned down.
 
I'd say upgrade rogues, but im biased :keke:

Majk was
302 on farguziar
290 on taeshlin
295 on malan
370 on demonic invader
336 on arch mage kextal

Fomelo
 
Tryfaen said:
its not like arrows are rare.


edit:
to expand on my arguement against reagents I do not believe that just because a ranger has to say /t mage arrows, they should be able to do:

1. out dps rogues by a good margin
2. outrange most AEs
3. avoid whirlwind
4. avoid rampage

while a rogue does not have to send a tell asking for reagents gets to do the following:

1. be a pain for healers
2. generate more agro
3. do inferior dps
4. die from monster abilities more often
Click to expand...

Well it is more like /who all magi *pray one is on* /t arrows plz. But yeah rangers need to be toned down, that or rogues need a boost.
 
On a raid with say 2 rangers & a mage, 4 stacks of 9 dmg arrows run out in no time (long before that spell can be cast again).
As far as I know 8dmg arrows cost ~350pp for 20 stacks, which is quite alot as you burn through them during exp/raids...

so if anything, upgrade rogues!!!

If rangers were to be nerfed I'd like to see a shorter cool-down on the 9dmg arrow spell, or perhaps another spell included between the 3dmg & 9dmg ones, ie 6dmg or so...
 
Jun said:
Does anyone raid without a mage?
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We always did until 10 days ago or so.

If you're talking ranger vs. rogue dps, consider their dps vs. caster classes, as well. The "oom" situation, resists, low hps...
 
I think going back to the boost to backstab would be the most appealing to me. Even if it doesn't close the gap entirely, its a simple solution and it gives rogues backstab screenshot bait. I honestly don't care too much if rangers out dps me a little, but I think at the least we should be comparable given the upsides and downsides of both DPS machines.
 
Me and Thaf (dandiest rogue there is) both parse and we always compare notes after mobs. Obviously these are not exact numbers, but estimates from raiding 4-5 times a week for two months.

The conclusion is that 75% of the time we do about the same damage on named mobs (with me using heartseekers!). Another 10% of the time, I get lucky with crits or nukes or I get a really nice Striking Curse run and I do maybe 20-30 dps more than Thaf. The rest of the time luck is in Thaf's favor and he beats me.

Oh, and I sometimes do more dps because Thaf has to box another character whereas I can't, which is an entirely different issue.

On trash mobs however, Thaf always beats me because I can't afford to use good arrows on every mob, so thaf does up to 100 dps more than me 90% of the time. I'm in the "upgrade rogues" boat on this one.
 
I was always under the impression that it was intended for rogues to be #1 melee dps, followed by rangers/monks.

While I do agree that rangers should be able to do great damage with their bow (more than melee, at least); I do have to admit that it seems silly for rangers to outdps rogues while at the same time 1) avoiding rampage/WW/AE, and 2) generating less aggro (due to distance, I suppose. Wait; why do they generate less aggro again)?
 
Allielyn said:
I was always under the impression that it was intended for rogues to be #1 melee dps, followed by rangers/monks.

While I do agree that rangers should be able to do great damage with their bow (more than melee, at least); I do have to admit that it seems silly for rangers to outdps rogues while at the same time 1) avoiding rampage/WW/AE, and 2) generating less aggro (due to distance, I suppose. Wait; why do they generate less aggro again)?
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Ill have to agree with this. If you can outdistance everything, there should be a trade off.
 
For reference sake:
Wiz said:
For a frame of reference, my general idea of how classes potential for DPS (not including buffing others' DPS) should be ordered:

1: Rogue (Sustained master), Wizard (Burst master, decent to good sustained)

2: Monk, Ranger, Magician, Necromancer

3: Warrior, Druid, Beastlord

4: Knights, Shaman, Cleric, Enchanter, Bard

On scale of DPS reliance... note that this isn't ordered by how good the class is at it, only how much of its DPS is on which end of the scale.

BURST ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSTAINED
Wizard | Druid Enchanter | Magician Cleric | Shaman Necromancer | Ranger Shadowknight Paladin | Beastlord Bard | Warrior Monk Rogue
Click to expand...
 
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