Ranger bow comparison

R

Rurho

Dalayan Adventurer
So after getting my new bow from ToT, I decided to do some parsing. To my suprise there was hardly any difference between Woe, Bane of the Brother, Shooting Star Metal balista, Bloodseeker and Flarewynd. Gm-allie and Dev-Woldo setup a place for me to do some parsing. Woldaff spawned a mob for me that did not attack back. All parsing was done attacking from the back of the mob. Here are the numbers I came up with, please note all parses were done for about a 15 min period.

Below are the ratios and procs on the bows tested.

Flarewynd: 59/31 +1 humanoid dmg

Woe, Bane of the Brother: 68/45 Effect:Deadly poison 100pt DD / 30dmg dot lasts 37 ticks

Shooting Star Ballista: 112/73 Effect:Flame Arrow 130pt AE fire based

Bloodseeker: 54/37 Effect:Dark Flare 180pt DD fire based, -50 resist adjust



The first series of tests were done using worn haste, no buffs, and 1dmg arrows.

Bloodseeker


Woe, Bane of the Brother


Shooting Star Ballista


Flarewynd


The second set of tests were done fully raid buffed, using 8dmg arrows.

Bloodseeker


Woe, Bane of the Brother


Shooting Star Ballista (this parse was cut short due to blessing of the combine fading. The buff adds 50 attack. After I noticed it faded the bow dropped about 10 dps, I can reparse this one if needed, but my wrist was broken after hours of button mashing.)


Flarewynd


As you can see these bows all do relatively the same dps, the CoD tier bow (Bloodseeker), IP tier bows (Woe + Balista) and the upper thaz tier bow (Flarewynd). What I would like to be discussed in this thread is bow dps and what the difference between different tier bows should be. Should it be that Bloodseeker and Woe have almost the same dps? The Flarewynd with the level of difficulty involved is hands down the one of the hardest items on SoD to acquire. I look forward to some feedback on this issue.

If you have nothing to say along these lines dont post here, this is for serious discussion only.
 
Just out of curiosity, how much melee damage is gained by other classes from one tier to another? Flarewynd seems to add about 10-20 DPS from your lowest tier that you are parsing to itself. 20 DPS is about a 7.5% upgrade to your DPS. This does indeed look pretty small, but if other DPS classes only increase by this much over the course of all of these tiers, then it seems to be on par (I know its kind of lame to compare with other classes, but I think it is a semi-accurate way at least).

I am highly doubting that rogues/bards/monks only get a ~7.5% upgrade to melee DPS though out all of these tiers, so I am assuming something needs to be looked at here.


Good luck getting rangers back to a decent class!
 
I agree very much with Rurho here.
There is a huge gap in terms of difficulty to obtain between Bloodseeker and Flarewynd (and fairly big gaps inbetween this for Woe & Balista).

I would like to see a much more linear progression in terms of actual DPS output from bows, because there is currently so little to separate a CoD geared ranger from an IP or Upper Thaz level ranger (when using archery).

In terms of ratio the bows also span a wide range, but this isn't apparent from the parsing. Is it possible that there is something not quite right with the way archery damage is being calculated or that it could be tweaked to separate the bows further from each other?

As Spiritplx says it would be very interesting to see the improvement that other classes get to their dps across this range of tiers and compare it to rangers & their bows.

I'm sure that all these things will be looked at in the near future along with all of the other class/dps comparisons, good luck to everyone involved :)
 
Rurho said:
So after getting my new bow from ToT, I decided to do some parsing. To my suprise there was hardly any difference between Woe, Bane of the Brother, Shooting Star Metal balista, Bloodseeker and Flarewynd. Gm-allie and Dev-Woldo setup a place for me to do some parsing. Woldaff spawned a mob for me that did not attack back. All parsing was done attacking from the back of the mob. Here are the numbers I came up with, please note all parses were done for about a 15 min period.
Click to expand...

Why is it that 98% of the time GM's don't spawn mobs for players for parsing purposes, but you seem to be getting special treatment here? If this is some new staff standard, I have a few requests for some parses, thanks.
 
There's a fairly smooth progression in terms of ratio from tier to tier (1-4%) but the dps from CoD to ToT increases by 1.15% and 1.088% in those two parses.

That's sure something to look forward to!

There is pretty obviously a problem here. Besides the last 3 bows doing nearly the same dps (Flarewynd should be doing about 25% more than Woe/Ballista).
 
I wonder why the ballista actually parsed worse than the first two with good arrows. I had thought arrows gave a multiplier to damage on SoD, such that the extrodinarily high delay on the ballista wouldn't hurt it?
 
Mythryn said:
Why is it that 98% of the time GM's don't spawn mobs for players for parsing purposes, but you seem to be getting special treatment here? If this is some new staff standard, I have a few requests for some parses, thanks.
Click to expand...

Because we suspect high end bows might be bugged somehow.
 
Is it possible that haste stops working on delays higher than a certain number? I kind of remember something on Live about the interaction of bows and haste, but I cannot remember. This could be why the numbers are slightly off.


(As in, haste only affects the first 50 delay of a weapon)
 
Mythryn said:
Why is it that 98% of the time GM's don't spawn mobs for players for parsing purposes, but you seem to be getting special treatment here? If this is some new staff standard, I have a few requests for some parses, thanks.
Click to expand...

Any time you have requests that something be looked at/parsing done, you can feel free to send them into me. I have a list about a page long of parsing that needs to be done, so it might take a while, but I don't mind adding items to it. Just one request: that you have REASONABLE reason to assume that there is a discrepancy, and you can back it up with some sort of initial parses of your own that show that reason. I just plain don't have the time to chase after every whim of a concern that any players may have. In so many cases its more appropriate for me to use carefully designed characters so I can control all variables, as a result you will very rarely see requests for players help with parsing.

Rurho said:
As you can see these bows all do relatively the same dps, the CoD tier bow (Bloodseeker), IP tier bows (Woe + Balista) and the upper thaz tier bow (Flarewynd). What I would like to be discussed in this thread is bow dps and what the difference between different tier bows should be. Should it be that Bloodseeker and Woe have almost the same dps? The Flarewynd with the level of difficulty involved is hands down the one of the hardest items on SoD to acquire. I look forward to some feedback on this issue.
Click to expand...

I am doing some testing myself to look at these, but at the outset I can tell you that one 15 minute parse per weapon is not sufficient to give a clear picture of the type of dps a bow will output. In my extensive class parses, ranger dps was THE most spiky of all "melee" dps. Even when averaging the results of 8 fights, the standard deviation could range to over 6% of the dps. Meaning, for example, that this line:

Ranger (ranged) - 105:58 minutes || 8 || 13:15 minutes || 276 + 17

Shows that in this case Woe is parsing anywhere from 259-293 70% of the time (Actual range went from 245 to 298). For a 13 minute average length fight, that's REALLY spiky, and its one reason that although Rurho has a nice compilation of numbers here, they cannot be considered a truly credible representation of bow output.

Now, while I'm parsing actual numbers, I still wouldn't mind seeing the discussion invited by the OP:

What I would like to be discussed in this thread is bow dps and what the difference between different tier bows should be.
Click to expand...

(might help if you included screenies of the bows in question Rurho <3)
 
Spiritplx said:
Is it possible that haste stops working on delays higher than a certain number? I kind of remember something on Live about the interaction of bows and haste, but I cannot remember. This could be why the numbers are slightly off.


(As in, haste only affects the first 50 delay of a weapon)
Click to expand...

My preliminary Woe vs. Starmetal parses do not support this conclusion
 
I am highly doubting that rogues/bards/monks only get a ~7.5% upgrade to melee DPS though out all of these tiers, so I am assuming something needs to be looked at here.
Click to expand...

Its not just the weapon that increases your dps between tiers. And increases on atk and haste over tiers wont show on these kinds of parses as only the weapon is changed. So the overall dps between tiers is a lot bigger then 7,5%.
The question is taking this into account how much should just a bow switch get you? tbh I think gaining 7,5% in dps for just 1 item is quite big.
 
Mythryn said:
Why is it that 98% of the time GM's don't spawn mobs for players for parsing purposes, but you seem to be getting special treatment here? If this is some new staff standard, I have a few requests for some parses, thanks.
Click to expand...

Honestly this could be easily fixed if the GMs/Wiz would be kind enough to perma-pop an NPC such as the one used in these parses in a place like arena or something. Then anyone interested in doing some truly accurate parsing would have the means (parsing 'in the wild' will *always* be dubious). Only prob with this could be using it for skilling up attack skills, however that can be prevented using some very simple code.

I'm always highly dubious about parses people post; in the 'original' ranger DPS thread that spawned after the ranger 'boost' to archery damage, and which resulted in the huge ranger archery DPS nurf, parses and DPS figures were thrown around willy-nilly, with not one I saw that I'd give any credibility to. Parsing can be complicated hugely by a whole host of factors, from the parsing method itself (usually meaning the parsing program used) to a host of in-game/fight specific/etc issues.

That being said, here is my plea to staff:
Provide some way for us to parse DPS in a way that excludes all potential server/game side problems; preferably something similar to what I suggested above.


Moving on to the real purpose of the thread:

Firstly, the parses are way, way, way too short - especially for looking at ranger DPS.

Secondly, the idea of jumping 7.5% DPS simply by upgrading your main weapon doesn't sound terrible to me. I don't know, and really we can't tell from these parses, if that is the case, however, as Noktar says, DPS is effected by a host of things, and these parses particularly ignore *all* factors except the bow upgrade.

Which ties in with thirdly: as we are ignoring all other factors but the weapon change in these parses, how can we realistically comment on whether Bows are 'right' or 'wrong' in terms of their upgrade to DPS without knowing how weapon upgrades effect other classes through the tiers.

So while I'd obviously be inclined to see rangers less gimp ( :psyduck: ) , the parses posted here really aren't enough to come to any kind of objective opinion on the matter.

In order to come to such an objective opinion, we need a)significantly longer parses (30mins+ easily) and b)parses of other classes performed under the exact same circumstances, by a toon exactly equal to the ranger parsing for bow dmg (as much as possible - which isn't too hard), with their respective weapons from the tier being parsed at that moment. Of course you also need to make sure the parses are ideally done by the same person or at least with the same parser.

To sum up, nothing to see in this thread for now that we can make objective opinions from.
And please, please, please (staff) give us a mob to parse on! (if weaponskill != max(ofclass) cannot hit/therefore skillup - or something!).
 
Who cares? The fun is spoiled for good, rangers are useless like they have been on live. Nice job, crew.
 
I've done parses of all these bows on the test ranger and my results do not support your original parses, Drello. There is a clear progression from Bloodseeker -> Woe -> Starmetal -> Flarewynd. My guess is that your original parses were not enough to show the difference overall, especially considering how spiky ranger bow dps is.
 
Eh, I'm not really convinced of the necessity of it. There are already thousands of mobs out there you can "parse" on, the only variables are how long you can parse before either a) you die or b) the mob dies. Every person in this game can download EQC and see what their average DPS is on any given set of mobs using any given weapon or spell. Given enough data over time, you can get the same results.
 
It still wouldn't be a accurate parse because most mobs, even the same name have different ac, mitigation, and levels. I'm just saying that it would help alot if there was atleast 1 mob somewhere for people to do long time parses on, (30+ minutes) without having to find a GM to spawn a mob just for them and tie up their time as well. I know I would be willing to parse atleast my bow even tho it isn't that high level and be able to come up with an accurate parse rather than one that can be suspect based on the sheer number of mobs and the "spiky" nature of bows that you refered to in a previous post.
 
panthernoswar said:
It still wouldn't be a accurate parse because most mobs, even the same name have different ac, mitigation, and levels. I'm just saying that it would help alot if there was atleast 1 mob somewhere for people to do long time parses on, (30+ minutes) without having to find a GM to spawn a mob just for them and tie up their time as well. I know I would be willing to parse atleast my bow even tho it isn't that high level and be able to come up with an accurate parse rather than one that can be suspect based on the sheer number of mobs and the "spiky" nature of bows that you refered to in a previous post.
Click to expand...
The trouble with that would be people growing their skills on said mob.
 
Kelval please read a thread before you reply to it :psyduck: .

Allielyn, your last post is pretty wrong regarding parsing. I'm happy to explain why if you want, just PM me. Suffices to say, regardless of how considerably easier it would be with such a mob, 'real world parses' will *not* give you the same results over a decent period of time.
 
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