Ranged Attackes && Skill Mods

Kedrin

Dalayan Pious Diety
The last thread about the three most recent skill mods added to the game went south rather fast, so i oped to make a whole new thread over bumping the older thread in which Zaela answered my question.

Does dual wield mod, double attack mod, bane dmg on items not on arrows/bows (like an ring) have any effect on bow dps? I have heard mixed answers, thanks.

No, no and no. Auto-attacks only. Dual Wield effects might be hard to see--the Ranged Attack button might not even agree to unusual sources of haste (incidentally this is something that autofire could fix!). As for the other ones, it does kind of suck, but I guess it's not clear how Ranged Attack and Backstab should benefit from them compared to the relatively small benefits for auto-attacks.

First let us talk about dual wield. Dual wield is currently only found on two items that I know about:

Rise of the Fallen
Faefang Necklace

The upgrade from Ubax-Un to Rise of the Fallen is rather nice for the majority of the classes listed on them simply because of the skill mod. Dual wield will allow +1% more haste for melee per point of skill added to your worn haste, yet only work for melee. Both of these items can be used by rangers. The problems however is that most of the time a ranger will be using his or her ranged attack button to preform their roll as a DPS class. I understand that when dealing with haste and the ranged attack button in its current form problems can be found. I would like to ask if duel wield skill can not only add 1% haste for melee but also possibly add 1% accuracy to ranged attacks so rangers could also see benefit from this new skill and be just as excited about it as the other melee DPS are.

Double attack skill mod will allow the character to receive a 1% chance for an extra attack with auto attack. The list of items with this skill mod is a bit larder but still remains very small:

Dhathrael, Guise of the Guardian +1
Hellhound Ring +1
Bracelet of Perpetual Pummeling (Monk Only) +1
Rujik War Mask +1
Gutbuster +10 (I believe this item was over looked when other items were "nerfed" during the introduction of the new skill mods. Headcruncher and Killamajig should also be looked into.)

Again, other then the monk only bracer, rangers can use all of these items and can not benefit from them with their main source of DPS. I see of no reason that this skill mod should not also work with ranged attacks. Receiving an extra attack with melee should not be viewed as a "small benefit" vs an extra attack from a ranged attack. I feel they are the same thing, and perhaps I am wrong. If it wasn't the same then double attack skill mod would be more powerful with a slow weapon then a fast weapon, and I just do not feel that this is the case.

I will leave Bane Damage out of this thread for now. I do feel that Bane Damage is one of the most powerful "stats" on melee DPS gear and I would love to see it work for rangers but I don't want to ask for too much.

Thank you for your time.

Just ignore the "e" in "Attackes"
 
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Maybe if these are hard to code for rangers they could just become +1% damage for a bow?
 
Or maybe X% increase to the chance for a double shot?

or double stab in the case of rogues...
 
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its not too late to reroll a good class.. or maybe it is

i think the new client could benefit rangers a lot, if auto shot takes client/server lag and human error out of the shot equation. however, it wont change the fact they lack burst, dont benefit from vah banner/lots of other things, and are generally just a pretty weak class relying on rare bow upgrades and silly shot mechanics to decide whether or not they can use nukes
 
its not too late to reroll a good class.. or maybe it is

i think the new client could benefit rangers a lot, if auto shot takes client/server lag and human error out of the shot equation. however, it wont change the fact they lack burst, dont benefit from vah banner/lots of other things, and are generally just a pretty weak class relying on rare bow upgrades and silly shot mechanics to decide whether or not they can use nukes
You could make a comprehensive thread about high tier ranger issues instead of a dweeby little aggressive post about it in a thread that is tangentially related.
 
the problems with the class are generally client based, can't shoot while spell gems are grey (making nuking a dps downgrade), client doesnt ungrey range attack button perfectly and you lose a ton of delay from client lag/human error to the point where there's almost no difference from a 10% haste upgrade on a ranger, etc.
 
Melee weapons don't just swing once a round, normally at the stage where the mods come into play most melees are getting 2 or sometimes 3 swings every round already. So giving ranged attacks an equal chance for an extra attack would be at least twice as powerful compared to melee weapons.

I'm not sure how I feel about any of this but I think that is the basic issue. They aren't quite the same.

Could the effect of the mods be easily reduced by 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever compensates?
 
if these effects could do anything to ranged, that would be awesome since gear progression seems to be based around them.
 
Melee weapons don't just swing once a round, normally at the stage where the mods come into play most melees are getting 2 or sometimes 3 swings every round already. So giving ranged attacks an equal chance for an extra attack would be at least twice as powerful compared to melee weapons.

I'm not sure how I feel about any of this but I think that is the basic issue. They aren't quite the same.

Perditrix, Truncheon of Undoing is 84 / 44 1.909
Yclistinite-reinforced Short Bow is 150 / 90 1.722

1% chance to get an extra attack would mean that 1 hit out of 100 would have a chance to proc an extra hit.

4.4 second delay * 100 hits = in 440 seconds (7.33 mins) you get 84 extra dmg on average

now lets go to the bow.

9.0 seconds delay * 100 shots = 900 seconds (15 mins) you get 150 extra dmg on average

so...

440 times 2 is 880 seconds or 14.66 mins. In this time the 1% chance to get an extra hit would add an average of 84 *2 = 168 dmg.

In 20 less seconds the 2hb will receive 18 more dmg. This is however understandable since the 2hb has a better ratio then the bow in the first place.

This means, that just because the bow is a much slower weapon, the 1% chance of an extra hit doesn't somehow become twice as powerful.

Perhaps I just don't understand the point you are trying to make. Or my math is wrong.

EDIT:
I am not sure if the mod is only looked at once per round or once every hit. If it only looks at each round to add the extra hit on then the math above should be correct. If however the mod simply looks at every hit, then the mod gets even more powerful for melee because of double attack and triple attack.
 
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Kedrin, its different because you cant simply convert fomelo weapon damage to actual dps. Bows do tend to hit harder (per fomelo damage) than meele weapons do. Meele weapons compensate by their wielders attacking 2-3 times per round.

I agree with kedrin in essence. Rangers are lacking at the endgame, and it is likely due in part to them not benefiting from all these effects melee dps use for most of their dps upgrades. You could probably just allow the effects work on bows, and it wouldnt make rangers OP, although it would make them more powerful on a ranger, and possibly give rangers some loot priority (what?!?!??!).
 
Since I have made this post more gear with these 2 Skill mods have been found on harder bosses that we have killed. This gear is nice because it is a way to give melee more dps from gear other then weapons.

Taeshlin, the Fallen Guardian
Cycyl, Girdle of Perpetual Motion : Duel Wield +1

Blazewind
Scorched-wind Band : Dual Wield +1

Warchief Rujik Moktar
Undying Loyalty : Double Attack +1

Most T13 loot that melee would want has these mods on them, and they are the main reason for said desire. All of them can also be used by Rangers, However rangers main source of DPS (ranged attack) is not effected by these skill mods. This means that rangers are stuck waiting until items are going to rot before they even want to ask for them since the gear would benefit their guild more in the hands of any other class that can use it.

Can these two skill mob please be changed to help rangers dps so rangers can also be excited about getting gear upgrades as they raid T13 content.
 
Can these two skill mob please be changed to help rangers dps so rangers can also be excited about getting gear upgrades as they raid T13 content.
What kind of numbers are you parsing at since ranged auto-attack was added?
 
I parsed 1014 dps on Blazewind + adds today. I only parse myself but Reehs's top 5 parses looked like this.

Solosolki + pets
--- DMG: 749499 (14.67%) @ 1195 dps (1169 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 102267 @221dps

Tarutao + pets
--- DMG: 671553 (13.14%) @ 1066 dps (1048 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 102302 @221dps

Valdian + pets
--- DMG: 639158 (12.51%) @ 1002 dps (997 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 178389 @385dps

Velleity + pets
--- DMG: 472343 (9.24%) @ 749 dps (737 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 163701 @354dps

Kedrin
--- DMG: 450857 (8.82%) @ 708 dps (703 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 98662 @213dps

I parsed 856 on The Custodian + 3 adds (I died on the fight because Lleoc noob cleric alt doesn't have enough mana to keep another bad ranger alive)

Reehs's top 5 numbers looked like...

Reehs
--- DMG: 474452 (14.13%) @ 858 dps (807 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 17592 @33dps

Tarutao
--- DMG: 469709 (13.99%) @ 1095 dps (799 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 54856 @149dps

Valdian + pets
--- DMG: 369082 (10.99%) @ 870 dps (628 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 98575 @283dps

Lleoc
--- DMG: 352607 (10.5%) @ 636 dps (600 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 92903 @169dps

Kedrin
--- DMG: 340006 (10.13%) @ 719 dps (578 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 68512 @167dps

We also killed Taeshlin, The Fallen Guardian but that doesn't say much since I'm not on the named for a good amount of the fight.

Last weeks Rujik kill looked like...

Tarutao + pets
--- DMG: 769831 (11.76%) @ 1382 dps (1375 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 124256 @281dps

Lleoc + pets
--- DMG: 690549 (10.55%) @ 1238 dps (1233 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 108702 @244dps

Solosolki + pets
--- DMG: 677992 (10.36%) @ 1222 dps (1211 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 121438 @275dps

Velleity + pets
--- DMG: 642524 (9.82%) @ 1170 dps (1147 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 121804 @276dps

Kiseble + pets
--- DMG: 624663 (9.54%) @ 1119 dps (1115 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 122594 @277dps

Valdian + pets
--- DMG: 521097 (7.96%) @ 1223 dps (931 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 164280 @522dps
--- Special: X

Kedrin + pets
--- DMG: 517324 (7.9%) @ 932 dps (924 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 112571 @233dps

Reehs + pets
--- DMG: 466745 (7.13%) @ 839 dps (833 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 13658 @31dps
 
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Dual Wield already affects it identically to melee auto-attacks thanks to autofire. Has since it went in, actually.

Thanks you very much for your input and time spent on autofire.

Would be nice to see Double Attack help bow dps in some way but we are moving the the right direction.
 
The reason Double Attack would be more powerful for ranged than meele is that meele dps already accounts for normal double/triple attack skills. Numbers if that doesn't make sense:

Lets just suppose a meele and ranger are doing about the same dps

Meele round looks like

50 Damage (Primary)
50 Damage (Primary)
50 Damage (Secondary)
50 Damage (Secondary)

Ranger looks like

200 Damage (bow)

I dont remember if Double Attack skill mod can effect primary and secondary, or just primary, but either way for the meele it will add either 50 or 100 damage when it works, which is a 25% or 50% bonus to that round's damage. For the ranger however, it would add 200 damage, which is an extra 100% damage.

I think the idea of making Double Attack increase ranged accuracy is good, however it should not just add 1% to total accuracy, or that would be more powerful than the meele version. Instead, subtract 1% from the current missrate. If the ranger is missing 50% of the time, they would instead miss 49.5% of the time. If thats possible to code, I think it would provide a similar benefit to rangers as other meele dps receive from the skill mod.
 
If overcap Double Attack were just melee Crit or something instead that would make this so much easier...
 
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