Raiding Enchanters, again

Y

Yally

Dalayan Adventurer
Alright. These things have bothered me for a long time, so the post to request changes to them is going to be long as well. I suggest finding more entertaining readings if Enchanters don't interest you.

The Rundown: I believe that high end enchanters fail to gain benefits from their gear on par with other classes.

Grouping? Grouping is alright as is. If you have decent AA and decent gear you can safely charm high level mobs in a group, haste them, let them go wild on your pulls, and even toss a nuke on some fights or boon (somewhat preferential).

Raiding? My obvious thread target. Here it is, and has been for a while, clear that Enchanters' roles are swish swashed around in the balance issue. (Addition of Vex, addition of Giantkin, necessity of any class that buffs a raid to be present at said raid[don't tell me this wasn't aimed at guilds wanting to log in an enchanter for buffing only :psyduck:], addition of Crit spell illusion / removal of said illusion)

How is it now? NOT AWFUL. Really, Enchanters are needed at raids for buffs and they always will be. This is OK, But we need to do more than that. Lets check out the usual spells on a raiding enchanter then: Nuke, Tash, Choke, Vex, boon, sapping curse, striking curse, rending curse.

-------Look like a lot? Maybe. Tashing at the start of every fight is undoubtably helpful. Boon is a proven dps boost, but i'll cover that later. Vex? Meh... so-so results. There is no way to know if the attack you are blocking wouldn't have missed anyway. Sure it is great for bosses with huge hits, but on trash healer mana really isn't an issue and the humongous recast on vex means you get 1 or 2 casts a fight. Chokehold lowers stats a little and does horrible damage...horrible horrible damage. And of course curses are great. On raid mobs. AKA: only a small part of the raiding itself.

So this is a lot of information -some of which is disputable- but what am I getting at?

The problem is that any old enchanter can buy all those spells in the lineup, and cast them without issue for the entirety of the raid.

RED FLAG ALERT ------- Getting enchanters mana / mana regen nerfed is not the right outcome for this thread.

Now to continue, we don't really run out of mana with those spells. Is that bad? No, but all other pure casters/healers have a direct correlation between their mana and their efficiency in some way. I don't think I need to go into detail to explain how necessary high mana is for a wizard, cleric, or other caster.

There are a lot of ways to separate out the lower tiered enchanters from the upper tiered ones and I believe from my fairly experienced time on SoD that this should not be done by making life harder on undergeared enchanters. Instead:

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Add spells: A tried and true method to supplement a deficiency. Enchanters have been pretty much pegged into "Augmenting" and are the lowest on the dps ladder even after giantkin. The idea I have for this method would be to implement a 3 spell special-nuke line in the early 50's, high 60's, and relic replacement[yes, quite serious]. The overall goal would be very quick small blasts of damage at a ratio significantly lower than the standard nuke line. This would be impractical in most groups where the standard nuke's efficiency would be desired but useful in raids between giantkin[it is currently impossible to cast any spells with a 2 second or longer cast between dual giantkins] and act as a drain on mana for those that can afford to expend it. Here's possible implementation side by side with the traditional spells for ratio comparison:


Dementia, enchanter 55, 250 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 615 (L54) to 675 (L60), stun 0.0
---traditional spell, decent ratio, 6 second cast time, 8 second recast

Psionic Pulse, enchanter 56, 300 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 515, no stun
---new idea, horrible ratio, 1.5 second cast time, 2 sec recast

Insanity, enchanter 61, 285 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 925, stun 0.0
---traditional spell, decent ratio, 6 second cast time, 8 second recast

Psionic Surge, enchanter 61, 325 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 795, no stun
---new idea, horrible ratio, 1.5 second cast time, 2 sec recast

Relic: Chaotic Visions, enchanter 65, 285 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 1150, stun 0.0
---traditional spell, decent ratio, 6 second cast time, 8 second recast

Relic: Psionic Chaos, enchanter 65, 320 mana, Decrease Hitpoints by 1005, no stun
---new idea, horrible ratio, 1.5 second cast time, 2 sec recast

So, to recap this idea: 2 spells implimented, 1 replaced (relic). Obviously this is my idea, my names, etc etc. However, this overall theme could be applied in a huge number of ways to similarly remedy the problem.

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or:

Modify Spells. This idea would modify the existing Chokehold spell such that it can be used in conjunction with Giantkin to accomplish a similar goal as the first idea, which is to add an additional drain on mana for people who can use it. This could be done by greatly increasing the damage on Chokehold, decreasing it's duration to 4 ticks, and leaving the stat adjusts alone. The cast time of Chokehold is such that it could be cast after Tash and before Booning begins while being able to refresh between casts of boon.

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Alright, so the duration of my two suggestions might reveal that I favor the first idea personally. But lets recap: It is my personal belief that Enchanters in higher raid tiers need a use for their mana pools, such that awarding them minor loot upgrades isn't le-sigh, etc. Also, they deserve it. If you've taken the time to gear up, you deserve to function better than joe-shmoe level 64 enchanter.

So idea numero uno gives you a chance at dps past the traditional double boon (no nuking can happen during double boon as is) or the Boon + nuke method where you boon one person and nuke while it refreshes (1 nuke cast). Just to elaborate: high level melee rangers / monks report to me that boon gives <100 dps upgrade to them. Booning two high level melee = <200dps from enchanter. Nuking with relic ends up being around 1500 dmg per cast for me, non-CoBed which, at 6+8 cast/refresh = just >100 dps if you can cast exactly on refresh. :psyduck: . Chokehold is 11 dps from the dot portion.



Anyway, as always happens with my deep musings, i've managed to write a ton down while not making a very clear point. So if as a final thought I can say as much: I believe that adding quick cast damage methods is the best way to add to enchanters without overpowering the class as a whole (aka this method has to target higher mana pools, ft, whatever) and that it would also add to the viability of single clienting players.

P.S. I'm very open to criticisms of how i feel on this issue, the quickly-made-up remedy numbers I've come up with, etc etc etc. Just keep it constructive please.
 
While i certainly don't have a "high end" enchanter, I have been a raid chanter, and can attest that usefulness is somewhat lacking. As Yally mentioned, all of the spells in that list have a defined use, but most of the time the enchanter is sitting there watching the mob hp go down and re-giantkinning.

It's something that certainly bothered me as well, problem is I don't know the solution to fix it. You certainly don't just want to give chanters moon comet, though I dont know that simply increasing mana consumption and lowering recast/cast time of existing chanter spells, while it may seem like a solution, really actually fixes anything.. You're still lowest on the dps totem pole, you can simply sling spells out faster.

I favor a rebalance, like i said, I simply dont know what the solution might be.

Chanters, weigh in.
 
I meant high end to be slightly upper tier raiding, just to not sound huffy. ;)


Anyway, i've been after a rebalance for years with numerous threads about our bottability and such n' such. What's come about is giantkin and vex. To be honest, i personally hate giantkin. A million melee who like flashy parses would cry if it was gone / replaced. But not me :toot:

I was trying a new approach which, like you say Ikaa, would just be patching on to the quilt that enchanters are right now. A real rebalance though... mmmmm :dance:
 
I didn't mean to imply huffiness. I meant that my chanter, while 65, is not raid geared, and hasn't experienced content past IP.

That's all.

I'd really like to hear mained chanters opinions/ideas though.
 
I don't really have time to read those ideas that closely just yet, but I'd like to chime in with something I've been up to. Those 'expirimental traps' listed on the frontpage include among them traps which spawn charmable mobs in small tmap-type waves. Necros, druids, and obviously enchanters can simply charm the pet they want--the traps respawn quickly enough to be farmed and to be a nuisance if in the wrong place. The mobs vary--some are small, dire charmable mobs, others are at their class's respecitve level caps. There are also pets in between for lower-tier players not comfortable charming a level 58 death engine.

Of course, raid bards being what they are, pot4 will be a big concern for any charmer. But it just so happens that a certain thurg quest offers a certain class a clicky that might be helpful for that... :toot:

Anyway, aside from just testing the traps in high end raid zones, I'll probably also just drop them on the heads of lower-tier guilds to get a feel for how much dps the enc+charm spits out.
 
That's nifty but traps are traps and I'd much rather see the sort of clicky-holding-urn-thingie you talked a little about before. Obviously more control = happier raid. I'm not sure that filling raid zones with fountainous traps just to give enchanters who dont suck something to do will benefit the raid :psyduck:
 
Seeing as we have so many, I would not mind more curses. But no more single shot curses as having 3 take a permanent spot is enough. Something like vex that makes a creature hit itself and probably be expensive. Need a reason to use that mana. Course balance would be a nasty issue on that. Whatever is added and burns mana is going to need to be unique as it can't be too great of dps or "healing" to put enchanter out of line yet maintain being worth the use of mana.

Mana costs on whatever is made could go up so we have a reason for that mana pool. I still wonder how to use non-specialized tomes. I hear they work on pets so maybe charmed pets as well. We may currently depend on others going through the tome than our own progress.
 
I really think enchanters have a lot to add to a raid. They have some of the best utility buffs in the game, and seeing as you need the enchanter in your raid to get these buffs (once you get going/after you buff at your gathering point) it is pretty crucial to keep the enchanter in the raid. The debuffs and curses they get are really good and their runes can keep up the MT during a long fight, or help keep up aux/ramp tanks.

I think the biggest thing raids lack is the use of enchanters to crowd control during raids. Sure, there are some encounters or trash clears where an enchanter is a must have, but really, the game lacks their use of crowd control in the lower tiers and some in the higher tiers. In my opinion, enchanters are the masters of crowd control (along with other things), but not utilizing enchanters specialization on most raids is kind of sadfaced. Some high end zones had a sort of fix to this (if you have raided in the high end with an enchanter, you should know what I am referring to), but overall, there just isn't much there. Having more even conned trash is a decent idea (since level really does not matter when making a mob hard or not), but other than that, I am not sure how to fix this problem.

I am not sure if Gather Mana prevents enchanters from getting new spells or other ways to use their mana (since getting FM after one click is stupid good, but enchanters can get away with it since their mana is not as important as other classes [in my opinion]), but Gather Mana might need to be looked at if they are given new spells (even though chain runing is extremely good to do after hitting GM).

As a quick aside/derail, I think enchanters really get the shaft on tomes of power. Having tomes affect runes would make sense, and would make the tomes extremely useful for enchanters. Runes really are a BIG part of raiding, so I think making tomes affect these would also give them better utility and make people want to run an enchanter instead of just using them as a buff bot.
 
Yally said:
That's nifty but traps are traps and I'd much rather see the sort of clicky-holding-urn-thingie you talked a little about before. Obviously more control = happier raid. I'm not sure that filling raid zones with fountainous traps just to give enchanters who dont suck something to do will benefit the raid :psyduck:
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What? The point is that you get your pet from the trap and then pretty much keep it the entire raid and let the rogues deal with the rest of the traps. The mob's not going to depop, or die unless you kill it / get it killed. Also the stuff I said before about terra cotta pets would be 1) kind of hard to do and 2) make enc require pottery to do well, which we don't really want. This, on the other hand, gives rogues something non-combat to do (the mob-makey traps aren't the only ones) and is just generally a better solution.

Spiritplx said:
As a quick aside/derail, I think enchanters really get the shaft on tomes of power. Having tomes affect runes would make sense, and would make the tomes extremely useful for enchanters. Runes really are a BIG part of raiding, so I think making tomes affect these would also give them better utility and make people want to run an enchanter instead of just using them as a buff bot.
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Agreed completely that tomes screw encs some. My hope is that, if tomes help charm pets, shifting a mained enchanter's dps toward babysiting the biggest charm pet they can get away with controlling will also cause the enc's tomes to matter a lot more.
 
Something I have a concern about is that PL and its avoidance is annoying when dealing with charm pets. I believe archaic will last about a minute on a level 58. It may be enough for a refresh, but that pet is as good as dead if not. Although I never did test what happens on a refresh with a pet, I'll just assume it would be kos if it started that way. Maybe running behind the raid and doing it in a safe place would work. Would the traps be in the way of the path guilds need to go? Would they get in the way of running a healer to a wipe site? Such things may cause problems with getting more servants. I can also expect the cries of many a monk. Problems of the kind that make that trap go away for good. Also consider how much pops out of the trap. If an accident happens to your most recent pet, getting a whole group to follow you to get another pet may be inconvenient.

At the least i suppose trap experts are rare. But do be sure that the 58 creatures are bigger than mage pets. Just because.
 
Hello. :)

In game I am known as Melysia, lvl 65 Main Enchantress for the guild Amicii. Enchanter has ALWAYS been my main class, on live and now here on sod. I am actually excited that this topic has been brought up, as I am starting to worry about my class/importance. :what:

I personally love the chanter class because of the CC. I am a very important person in any grp/raid EVEN THOUGH I don't do any damage to the mobs personally. Although I will admit...

Now that I am progressing through tier 4, nearing tier 5 I find my class more and more boring. The job I do have is Tashing the mob of course, GoGing (giantkin), Runing the mt on big named, and making sure that everyone else has all the goodies they need from me. I NEVER run out of mana anymore unless we are doing a fairly challenging named and the MT needs LOTS of Runes. Generally then I have to use my Gather Mana to keep that going till the end of the fight. I should also add...I have my Relic Mez, but I haven't really noticed a big advantage to having it raid wise yet. Unless you want to count tmaps...

I don't personally think our class is meant to do any dps...our job it to make others put out more dps and keep things under control if sh** hits the fan. As for charmable mobs mentioned earlier I think...I don't do charms, this has always been an issue for me vs other chanters they think I should I disagree. I don't want to add more work for myself to do later when it may or may not cost the groups lives. Besides I have all my pet AAs so he is all that he can be when I have him out, although I wish he were a bit more lol. Our pets still don't have the skills needed to save our lives...but that is a whole other story....

In all honesty, I would love to see our class get to do more CCing, but the only way I see us being able to do that is if we have more lower lvled mobs added to zones (which I think could cause lag issues), or maybe change the lvl cap on the relic mez/the mezzability of mobs in higher tiered zones. This would make things more fun and interesting for us...plus give us stuff to do in between big fights. These are just my thoughts, thanks for listening/reading, and I hope we get some fun new changes worked out. :cool:
 
Howdy,

Well I'm not a chanter but I can totally feel Mely's pain on raids. There just isn't enough for her to do on raids. It's almost getting to the point that shes actually getting very bored on raids. After Buffs are done there really isn't much to do as a chanter. Sure you can tink away with nukes between giant kins.. Seriously though on a fight per fight basis her mana is wasted. I play a cleric and sometimes box my wizzy on raids. I allways have something going on even if I play one toon. Her on the other hand as a chanter doesn't get to do much with her manapool. The only time it ever comes into play is runes on the MT during a challenging named, Tmaps, or a solid exp group. She kicks butt at CC. It's just a shame that kicking butt like this doesn't matter at all come raid time. Everything either resists relic mez totally or can't really be mezzed. It's just a pity really..

Even as a non chanter I feel something should be done for the other chanters out there. I can see her loosing interest in her character as we progress through tiers. It would be really nice if some kind of reballance could happen for all chanters. Maybe then botting them would become a thing of the past.

BTW I know how bored she is during raids sence I sit right next to her when we play SOD. There isn't a raid that goes by w/o her getting bored to tears. She's falling into that need to make an Alt to enjoy the game again phase. It really would be a pitty to just have her main there to bot just so she has something else to do. It's nice being a husband and wife team, but I feel all sadfaced as she starts to loose interest in her favorite class as we progress through raiding tiers.
 
I'm glad for all the support that enchanting as a whole is getting, but I would like to point out that with max aa gather mana is still only every 2 hours, and ergo 'maybe' twice a raid. I only use it on a couple encounters i can think of off the top of my head.
 
Re: Charm stuff, if you don't like to charm then don't. It's that simple. But seeing as how enc get a relic nuke and nuking is less a class-defining ability than charm is, it's only fair to give those who *are* willing to keep a charm pet under control the ability to do it in exchange for raid dps.

Charm ought to be available on raids and ought to do more dps than giantkin/nukes, it's as simple as that.
 
Thinkmeats said:
Of course, raid bards being what they are, pot4 will be a big concern for any charmer. But it just so happens that a certain thurg quest offers a certain class a clicky that might be helpful for that... :toot:
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Is there any way to make pot4 NOT land on charm pets? (Without screwing other pets in the process?) Or to make re-charming ignore the effects of Pot4? It is terribly sad that these two things become essentially mutually exclusive, and I don't think its fair to solve the issue with itemization. I would be happy to make charm pets immune to all melody songs if it would mitigate this problem.
 
Probably not going to happen, but could have songs drop off of all charmed pets once charm breaks. It does kind of suck to have Pot4 make it difficult to recharm since almost every encounter and trash clear requires Pot4 to be up at all times. This is the only issue that really prevents this from being a BIG boost to raid enchanters as charmed pets can definitely add a bunch of dps and it rewards good enchanters more so than raids do now.
 
Spiritplx said:
Probably not going to happen, but could have songs drop off of all charmed pets once charm breaks. It does kind of suck to have Pot4 make it difficult to recharm since almost every encounter and trash clear requires Pot4 to be up at all times. This is the only issue that really prevents this from being a BIG boost to raid enchanters as charmed pets can definitely add a bunch of dps and it rewards good enchanters more so than raids do now.
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Couldn't an autocast-on-fade dispell-all-buffs spell be added to charm spells? You'd think that having to rebuff the pet would be worth the sacrifice, plus you'd have to strategize your pet buffs instead of just keeping all buffs on it forever. Or if a song specific dispell can be added that'd be good too.
 
An autocast-on-fade dispel isn't going to happen, it would screw up far too many legitimate strategies to be worth it. For bard songs not landing on charm pets, maybe; it depends on how hard it is to code and it certainly wouldn't be a priority because of:

Spiritplx said:
Probably not going to happen, but could have songs drop off of all charmed pets once charm breaks. It does kind of suck to have Pot4 make it difficult to recharm since almost every encounter and trash clear requires Pot4 to be up at all times. This is the only issue that really prevents this from being a BIG boost to raid enchanters as charmed pets can definitely add a bunch of dps and it rewards good enchanters more so than raids do now.
Click to expand...

Thinkmeats said:
Of course, raid bards being what they are, pot4 will be a big concern for any charmer. But it just so happens that a certain thurg quest offers a certain class a clicky that might be helpful for that... :toot:
Click to expand...

I don't really have a problem making enc rely on that thurg reward for this sort of thing as a temporary plan while we figure something better out (maybe even just putting the pet-dispel spell on charm classes' lists or something, idk). For the uninitiated, enchanters have a thurg reward that's inventory clickable and dispels all beneficial spells off your pet, but doesn't remove charm.
 
I'm 100% for charming on raids. However I fail to see how your clicky solves all problems. True, you can stop a majority of random charm breaks by recharming, say, every 5 minutes. But you'll still have those random breaks that just suck. I don't personally see that as a problem since I always charm with relic: mez up on my bar and trust my group healer, but wanted to point out that it doesn't really fix the danger brought on by an MR song.

Making PBAOE stun unresistable or giving it some sort of -resist has been talked about before, even by you, and could be considered once again for this sort of implementation.
 
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