Proposed Monk Changes

Ok then forget all this I'm just going to make 15 a good tanking stance and 7 a good dps stance or vice versa NEW PLAN: THIS POST.
 
are we still losing our innate 10%

are you abandoning combos?

please say no because stances are cool but they are limited by stamina where as combos can last as long as you want and they are way more interactive. Please don't ditch a cool idea for a bland one.


that aside:

I have to say I use fluid dodge more than I use s4 or s5 (which is never, at all)

also the rapid hit stance is completely awful and could probably be one of those as well
 
Last edited:
I was excited for the new combo system. I think it would be really neat and a nice dynamic, regardless of losing the innate avoidance (but who would want to lose that).
 
I used s4 and s5 way more than I ever found a reason for fluid dodge. (I guess pvp vs a ranger it would be good.)
 
The combo idea seemed interesting as a fix to how bland monk special attacks are and as a fix for dps gap. Not to mention spicing the class up. All around good stuff.

Fixing the stances, or streamlining them, could be done quite nicely hand-in-hand with the combo change. Of the 15 stances about half are either nearly useless or easily (and more interestingly) replaced by a combo attack.

1) Normal : Ok.
(2) Aggressive:Yup, its a thing. Would be nice to have a monkish all the time replacement.
(3) Defensive: See Aggressive.
(4) Cryogenic Focusation & (5) Kinetic Focusation: Remove. Combo nukes instead!
(6) Reflexive Stance: Grrreat!
(7) Flurry of Blows: So useless. Remove (think of the BSTs).
(8) Fluid Dodge: Mostly useless. Remove.
(9) Raging Whirlwind: Leave it.
(10) Wall of Will: Sometimes useful!
(11) Crushing Blow & (12) Dance of Death: I always thought these should be one stance. That is just a flavor thing though.
(13) Rending Rage: Remove. Combo stun instead!
(14) Ethereal Form: Change it!!!! Haha, no.
(15) Walk of the Transcendant: Maybe split into a monk flavored aggressive and defensive? Or just tweak the numbers or something. A no drain stance like Vindicators possibly?
 
Combos can last as long as you want only if they are always up which is the only thing people want apparently even 25% downtime is not acceptable regardless of the strength of the combo. Stance 7 and 15 can both stay up a very very long time properly buffed and you can go into any other stance if you don't need it or 16 (eventually) if you really really don't need it.

If I want to give monks any sort of defensive combo at all, it simply cannot be up all the time because a 'combo' involves more than one move! There MUST be downtime. If this is not acceptable, the idea is doomed from design anyway, that's all I'm saying.
 
With druid ancient regen and worn acumen, in combat fighting stuff the entire time:

I go from 100 endurance to 0 in 110 seconds of combat with /s 7.
I go from 100 endurance to 0 in 185 seconds of combat with /s 15.

0 to 100 endurance takes me 648 seconds in /s 2.
0 to 100 endurance takes me 180 seconds in /s 16.

If those stances are tweaked to give us appropriate overall DPS levels, they'd have to be pretty crazy while they're active to justify the length of downtime.

Also, numbers without druid regen (but still worn acumen), since assuming that every monk will always have it in order to balance DPS seems like a bad idea:

100 to 0 endurance in /s 7 in 60 seconds.
100 to 0 endurance in /s 15 in 106 seconds.

0 to 100 endurance in /s 2 in 710 seconds.
0 to 100 endurance in /s 16 in 125 seconds.

So that is an even more extreme amount of downtime.

And also for some reason with /s 16, druid regen actually makes me take longer to regain endurance. I checked attacking stuff and not attacking, multiple times with and without druid regen, and got the same numbers both times...
 
Last edited:
I go from 100 endurance to 0 in 110 seconds of combat with /s 7.
I go from 100 endurance to 0 in 185 seconds of combat with /s 15.

0 to 100 endurance takes me 648 seconds in /s 2.
0 to 100 endurance takes me 180 seconds in /s 16.

I understand what you are saying, however that appears to be superior to:

X% avoidance takes 9 seconds to activate and then 14 and stays up 70% of combat with no endurance cost
Y% accuracy takes 9 seconds to activate and then 14 and stays up 50% of combat with no endurance cost.

They even, as written, stack on top of stances!
 
Yeah in my opinion the numbers for stance uptime and the hassle of dealing with the timer on switching stances, inevitably not having endurance at some point when you really want it to invuln/offtank/whatever, the endurance bar being imprecise and not gaining/losing at a uniform rate, and apparent bugs in regeneration rates with stances/buffs, makes me feel that the combo system would be far superior.
 
Hang on I think I just figured something out. 10% Avoidance sounds like a lot because it is a fake number.

Let's say, hypothetically, that you can expect a mob to miss you around 22 swings out of 100 okay, hypothetically. Your innate 10% avoidance means you will instead be missed 24 swings out of 100. Do you see? Not 32 out of 100. It's a very small bonus we are talking about and frankly, dodge mods give you much more (since dodge, block, and riposte are all checked for AFTER a mob hits you.) And this mob is hypothetically level 52.. a level 70 raid boss will miss you less often which means your +10% avoidance does *even less*.

Does this explain why I seem so put out having to sell monks on this idea? The weight-related avoidance is really token and to me its removal does not warrant this furious a defense.
 
Slaariel said:
Hang on I think I just figured something out. 10% Avoidance sounds like a lot because it is a fake number.

Let's say, hypothetically, that you can expect a mob to miss you around 22 swings out of 100 okay, hypothetically. Your innate 10% avoidance means you will instead be missed 24 swings out of 100. Do you see? Not 32 out of 100. It's a very small bonus we are talking about and frankly, dodge mods give you much more (since dodge, block, and riposte are all checked for AFTER a mob hits you.) And this mob is hypothetically level 52.. a level 70 raid boss will miss you less often which means your +10% avoidance does *even less*.

Does this explain why I seem so put out having to sell monks on this idea? The weight-related avoidance is really token and to me its removal does not warrant this furious a defense.
Click to expand...

if innate avoidance is so minor then why do monks at lower levels wearing leather vs. monks staying underweight seem to get comparatively rocked? im sorry i dont have parses for this, but i cant count the number of times ive talked to new monks (okay, maybe 7 different new monks, 10?) and found they were having trouble on mobs that i did not have trouble with

maybe yeah, at higher levels it matters less, but i dont know! what would be great are some dev parses supporting their desire to make a drastic class change! im not sure im convinced by or believe slaariel's example here! (im sorry im not trying to be caustic but well there it is)
 
slaariel, here is the thing, just do whatever the fuck you want, people are scared of change, people dont have MOST of the details. so put stuff in and we can try it and see how it works, I mean it may even be way op who knows. this while conversation talking about it without knowing the details is dumb.
 
Im pretty confident mnks could be fixed with either a change to stances or the addition of combo system. I think doing both (to some overall similar degree of effectivess when combined) might be best as having an all in one stance for dpsing and tanking , while neat for duoing tough stuff, isnt as neat if yer just trying to dps.
 
Slaar, I would love to see monks changed with a new combo/stance system. It would be fun to be more engaged with combat, kind of like the warrior changes (haven't played a rogue since changes).

The issue as it stands now is that, sure we CAN /s 15 for one fight or maybe half the fight if it is some sort of boss fight, but then we're stuck with aggressive for the next 10 minutes or whatever. If it isn't some sort of important fight, we won't be using /s 15 because then when the boss fight does come up, welp no endurance because you blew it on an earlier mob. So, DPS like a wet noodle for the clear and then dps slightly better for 2 minutes or whatever /s 15 lasts and then back to a wet noodle.


Basically, throw some combo shit out there, we'll see how it affects dps and if you feel the need to change it because it isn't enough/ it is too much, can worry about it then.
 
burt6 said:
slaariel, here is the thing, just do whatever the fuck you want, people are scared of change, people dont have MOST of the details. so put stuff in and we can try it and see how it works, I mean it may even be way op who knows. this while conversation talking about it without knowing the details is dumb.
Click to expand...

^^^ This. It sounds like it helps all levels, so I say.. bring .. it.. on.
 
burt6 said:
slaariel, here is the thing, just do whatever the fuck you want, people are scared of change, people dont have MOST of the details. so put stuff in and we can try it and see how it works, I mean it may even be way op who knows. this while conversation talking about it without knowing the details is dumb.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Without lots of details/experience of the combo system its all speculation. Monk stances kind of suck (not all of them. some are great, but overall...) and need to be supplemented or replaced by something so just do it, consequences (nerdrage?) be damned.
 
Waldoff said:
The Dev team is pretty certain we want these to go in - BUT I figured it would be good to get some feedback on the details before full implementation.

The changes are as follows:

1) Monk weight penaltywill be completely done away with. It will no longer matter if you have 10 stones on you or 100 as far as AC or avoidance goes. This also means that the innate 10% avoidance bonus (which was not a lot to be honest) no longer exists as well.

2) Partially to compensate for the loss of avoidance and partially because its a cool idea monks will have a avoidance bonus when they are not attacking something. The number we are kicking around now is 20%. I have dubbed this in my head "Meditative Calm". Having a message tell you when you slip in and out of meditative call might be warranted but also might be too spammy. Opinions are welcome on that point.

3) This next one is cool and all creative credit goes to Slaar. Monks will be getting special attack combos. Instead of having completely unused special attacks earned throughout a monks lifetime we are going to be having monks get special bonuses, buffs, damage and the like happen from specific combinations of special attacks. Want a big damage special? Perform the correct order of special attacks on a mob and it will happen. We hope to expand this to interesting avenues including possible group buffs, defensive abilities and more.

Finally and as an aside - this will likely mean WR bags will be rejiggered since we no longer will have one class who needs *perfect* WR bags desperately and a bunch of other classes who do not.


Comment away! This is likely due within a day or two.
Click to expand...

will this also do away with the shared cooldown on monk attack skills? Or atleast a reduction?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom