Priest Relic heals
- Thread starter Mythryn
- Start date
Wiz
NOT DONATING *EVER*
Mythryn said:
Yes, pretty much.
There is nothing inherently unbalanced in cleric "fast heals" being better than shaman "big heals". For this to be unbalanced, you first have to define what the gap between cleric and shaman should be - ie 50% better, 20% better, what - and then compare both big and fast heals to determine the reality of the situation. Saying "gosh that fast heal heals more than that big heal" is pointless in and of itself, any idea of "balanced" has to take other abilities into account, otherwise necromancers are the best class in the game because their "fast dots" are better than the best non fast cleric dots SO UNBALANCED.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Did the math and I was wrong. It isn't 'better' in terms of healing, it just heals more in less time.
Cleric, 7000 mana, chaining Relic: Althuna's Remedy with Vessel of Althuna, 23.333 casts, 37426.66 healed 1.10 cast time + 3.50 fizzle (4.60 seconds), 107 seconds or 1.78 minutes,
Shaman, 7000 mana, chaining Relic: Woundbane, 1 canni5 (1066 mana), 28.3 casts, 46697 healed 3.75 cast time + 2.50 fizzle time (6.25 seconds) 177.0625 + 2.50 canni time, 176.56 seconds or 2.93 minutes
Assuming all heals are full heals and no crits (which would close the gap in favor of the cleric, if not overshadow the shaman)
Was I wrong? Yes. Do I like the gap between shamans and druids/clerics, no. Playing one of the top 5 shaman on the server, its really depressing to watch a beastlord slow for as much as your base slow. To watch druids and clerics have 5x the healing power in the form of group heals. But if you don't think Shaman need anything else, whatever.
Cleric, 7000 mana, chaining Relic: Althuna's Remedy with Vessel of Althuna, 23.333 casts, 37426.66 healed 1.10 cast time + 3.50 fizzle (4.60 seconds), 107 seconds or 1.78 minutes,
Shaman, 7000 mana, chaining Relic: Woundbane, 1 canni5 (1066 mana), 28.3 casts, 46697 healed 3.75 cast time + 2.50 fizzle time (6.25 seconds) 177.0625 + 2.50 canni time, 176.56 seconds or 2.93 minutes
Assuming all heals are full heals and no crits (which would close the gap in favor of the cleric, if not overshadow the shaman)
Was I wrong? Yes. Do I like the gap between shamans and druids/clerics, no. Playing one of the top 5 shaman on the server, its really depressing to watch a beastlord slow for as much as your base slow. To watch druids and clerics have 5x the healing power in the form of group heals. But if you don't think Shaman need anything else, whatever.
Well, Wiz asked to take the whole class into account. That's how I see it:
HEALING
As Jose pointed out and I'm not gonna extend it very much:
Shaman with Woundbane, base:
-285 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 1650, 5.7
Cleric with Light of Eternity, base:
-395 mana, 3.50 cast time, heals for 2700, 6.8
Druid with Sihala's Empathy, base
-345 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 2150, 6.2
So here we are 1.1 points behind cleric (what is obvious we are behind them, they are dessigned primary for healing) and 0.5 points behind druids.
Also we take into account both of druids and clerics have Group Heals while we don't have.
So we are lot less effective in our heals and we don't have group heals.
Now comparing the mana regaining abilities we have Canni and both other priest classes have FT6 buff (HPB with +100mana to cleric and the druid one, correct me if I am wrong). I, and everyone should agree with me, think canni is quite better than FT6, but we should take into account that FT6 for not only saying "hey! you have canni, we have nothing!".
So we are worse healers but we have better mana abilities. Is Jose asking us a Group Heal? Is he asking us to be as good as a druid healing? No, I don't think so. I would think that could be overpowered. He is only asking our Relic heal to be slightly increased to make us more useful as healers (to 5.9 or 6.03, still 0.2 or 0.3 behind a druid or 0.8/0.9 behind a cleric).
When I got my Relic Heal, with all healing AAs and HI6, I discovered that, yeah, it was faster, but it was only 300 hp increase (Sometimes is hard to mantain a group healed in a hard zone while a druid or cleric does it easily).
So then someone points out: "Shaman already are the buff kings..."
BUFFS
Cleric: Raego.
Druid: WON, Ancient Regen, DS.
Shaman: Focus, EOT, EOTW, Regen.
First of all I should ask: If you had to choose one buff form here, which one you would choose? I don't know you, but I would go for Raego.
We have: 1300HP for clerics vs 350HP 8 FT for druid vs 455 HP, 75cha, 35atk.
Once more Raego is the only useful buff Cleric does and I agree they shall have so much HPs as basically cleric heals and raegos (yeah, I know they do more things, but we are talking in general lines).
And once more it appears to me the comparision between druid and shaman. While melees preffers Focus, casters preffer Won. I think that is on pair though 8 FT is really huge specially when people on the high end have the Cha maxed or near maxed and/or you can get a Shm/Enc Cha buff or a Cha pot.
Their regen is also better and while we have EOT and EOTW they have DS. I consider EOT and EOTW very very useful (more than DS obviously), and yeah, we beat here the other classes but is not like "look shaman with all their buffes while we don't have quite any!" I still would preffer, though FT8, than other thing.
Finally...
OTHER FEATURES
Yeah! We slow and that makes, imho, our class not being underpowered in front of the other priests classes.
Sure they have other cool features like Druid Ports, which are really useful, but nothing can beat our slows.
What I would only point here is what Jose said about a BST 65 slowing the same as a Shaman 65 till he gets that +5% upgrade from the Mask Shaman Quest.
It is also pointed out that DPS is better on a druid than on a shaman, though that's not really what it matters here cause we are not gonna DPS on raids.
CONCLUSIONS
What do I want to say with all this blocks of text? Do I think we are really underpowered, poor shamans that are completely useless? No, I don't think so. I only want to point with all this text that a slightly increase on our healing abilities, as the proposed by Jose would be really helpfull to make shaman really useful on the HighEnd raiding heals. I think that little change would balance our class to put it on par with the other priests classes.
Now flame me if you want or begin a discussion showign me why am I wrong with arguments.
HEALING
As Jose pointed out and I'm not gonna extend it very much:
Shaman with Woundbane, base:
-285 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 1650, 5.7
Cleric with Light of Eternity, base:
-395 mana, 3.50 cast time, heals for 2700, 6.8
Druid with Sihala's Empathy, base
-345 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 2150, 6.2
So here we are 1.1 points behind cleric (what is obvious we are behind them, they are dessigned primary for healing) and 0.5 points behind druids.
Also we take into account both of druids and clerics have Group Heals while we don't have.
So we are lot less effective in our heals and we don't have group heals.
Now comparing the mana regaining abilities we have Canni and both other priest classes have FT6 buff (HPB with +100mana to cleric and the druid one, correct me if I am wrong). I, and everyone should agree with me, think canni is quite better than FT6, but we should take into account that FT6 for not only saying "hey! you have canni, we have nothing!".
So we are worse healers but we have better mana abilities. Is Jose asking us a Group Heal? Is he asking us to be as good as a druid healing? No, I don't think so. I would think that could be overpowered. He is only asking our Relic heal to be slightly increased to make us more useful as healers (to 5.9 or 6.03, still 0.2 or 0.3 behind a druid or 0.8/0.9 behind a cleric).
When I got my Relic Heal, with all healing AAs and HI6, I discovered that, yeah, it was faster, but it was only 300 hp increase (Sometimes is hard to mantain a group healed in a hard zone while a druid or cleric does it easily).
So then someone points out: "Shaman already are the buff kings..."
BUFFS
Cleric: Raego.
Druid: WON, Ancient Regen, DS.
Shaman: Focus, EOT, EOTW, Regen.
First of all I should ask: If you had to choose one buff form here, which one you would choose? I don't know you, but I would go for Raego.
We have: 1300HP for clerics vs 350HP 8 FT for druid vs 455 HP, 75cha, 35atk.
Once more Raego is the only useful buff Cleric does and I agree they shall have so much HPs as basically cleric heals and raegos (yeah, I know they do more things, but we are talking in general lines).
And once more it appears to me the comparision between druid and shaman. While melees preffers Focus, casters preffer Won. I think that is on pair though 8 FT is really huge specially when people on the high end have the Cha maxed or near maxed and/or you can get a Shm/Enc Cha buff or a Cha pot.
Their regen is also better and while we have EOT and EOTW they have DS. I consider EOT and EOTW very very useful (more than DS obviously), and yeah, we beat here the other classes but is not like "look shaman with all their buffes while we don't have quite any!" I still would preffer, though FT8, than other thing.
Finally...
OTHER FEATURES
Yeah! We slow and that makes, imho, our class not being underpowered in front of the other priests classes.
Sure they have other cool features like Druid Ports, which are really useful, but nothing can beat our slows.
What I would only point here is what Jose said about a BST 65 slowing the same as a Shaman 65 till he gets that +5% upgrade from the Mask Shaman Quest.
It is also pointed out that DPS is better on a druid than on a shaman, though that's not really what it matters here cause we are not gonna DPS on raids.
CONCLUSIONS
What do I want to say with all this blocks of text? Do I think we are really underpowered, poor shamans that are completely useless? No, I don't think so. I only want to point with all this text that a slightly increase on our healing abilities, as the proposed by Jose would be really helpfull to make shaman really useful on the HighEnd raiding heals. I think that little change would balance our class to put it on par with the other priests classes.
Now flame me if you want or begin a discussion showign me why am I wrong with arguments.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Not going to quote the post (because its amazingly huge) but he summed up all my thoughts (in a less angry, tinfoiled, enraged way).
I'm not asking for Shamans to be druids or clerics. I'm pointing out that while we do have our utility, we are KEPT on raids (instead of just being buff bots) for our healing. Thats our role. We're a healing class, and right now we're by far the worst at that role. Our heals are weak and inefficient. Sure they cost next to nothing, but they heal next to nothing in exchange. On a raid level tank I have to heal at around 92% health, and by the time it lands, it heals for full. I rarely ever get less than 2.6k heals (thx Thaz).
I'm not asking to have a 6.2 ratio heals. I'm not asking for Complete Heals. I'm not asking for CoE. I'm asking for a boost in both mana cost and heal power of my classes main heal spell, to put us in line with the overall healing power of the other classes.
I'm not asking for Shamans to be druids or clerics. I'm pointing out that while we do have our utility, we are KEPT on raids (instead of just being buff bots) for our healing. Thats our role. We're a healing class, and right now we're by far the worst at that role. Our heals are weak and inefficient. Sure they cost next to nothing, but they heal next to nothing in exchange. On a raid level tank I have to heal at around 92% health, and by the time it lands, it heals for full. I rarely ever get less than 2.6k heals (thx Thaz).
I'm not asking to have a 6.2 ratio heals. I'm not asking for Complete Heals. I'm not asking for CoE. I'm asking for a boost in both mana cost and heal power of my classes main heal spell, to put us in line with the overall healing power of the other classes.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
After I posted my "dump a bunch of healing at low efficiency, or a small amount over time with woundbane for basically forever" thing, I started toying with the idea of a group torpor (primarily to combat AEs on raids). In either case, aren't shamen supposed to be the masters of HoTs and regen-like effects?
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
Sorry, I meant torpor/slumber without the slow component and a much higher mana cost. HoTs back when it was nerfed were also doing twice what they should be.
EoB is 375 mana, 2 sec cast and a 30 second recast and heals 575/tick for 24 seconds (2300 total healed)
Ancient slumber is 100 mana, 6 second cast with no recast timer and heals 350/tick, increases all resists by 25, AC by 45(7.5 real AC), decrease movement speed by 100% and decrease attack speed by 80% for 24 seconds (1400 healed)
Maybe turn Slumber into 410 mana, 4 second cast, 42 second recast that heals 355/tick, increases AC by 66 (11 real AC) for 30 seconds (1775 total healed)
EoB is 375 mana, 2 sec cast and a 30 second recast and heals 575/tick for 24 seconds (2300 total healed)
Ancient slumber is 100 mana, 6 second cast with no recast timer and heals 350/tick, increases all resists by 25, AC by 45(7.5 real AC), decrease movement speed by 100% and decrease attack speed by 80% for 24 seconds (1400 healed)
Maybe turn Slumber into 410 mana, 4 second cast, 42 second recast that heals 355/tick, increases AC by 66 (11 real AC) for 30 seconds (1775 total healed)
Shammies with any sort of group heal would be grossly imbalancing in my opinion.
Giving them a HOT that takes a shitload of mana but is comparable to the non relic cleric HOT isnt a bad idea IMO. Can even add the snare from live in there.
I do not think they should get any better reactive heals than woundbane. A shammy's mana regeneration ability is too high as of now to give them the healing power to keep a raid tank up alone imo.
Giving them a HOT that takes a shitload of mana but is comparable to the non relic cleric HOT isnt a bad idea IMO. Can even add the snare from live in there.
I do not think they should get any better reactive heals than woundbane. A shammy's mana regeneration ability is too high as of now to give them the healing power to keep a raid tank up alone imo.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
requotin dis for the second page to back up what wold is saying:
Thinkmeats said:
Just a sum up of all ideas given in this thread about what to do with shaman heals with a brief comment of what I think about them:
- Not change anything.
My opinion: Obviously I don't think is the solution or I won't be posting here.
- Create a new heal (not fast) more mana consuming (not mana efficient) but with more healing power per second.
My opinion: I don't like this idea cause me and most shamans, knowing we finish with good mana most raid mobs, would use it over Relic one making relic devaluated, a lot less useful. I don't think a normal spell heal should be as or more useful than our relic one (even if it is only in some cases).
- Do a group HOT (Making druids have group heals, shaman group HoTs, clerics both).
My opinion: This group HoT should not be as good as a cleric one to make it balanced (should be at least enough to keep a group from AoEs).
- Do a targeteable HoT without the slow/snare component of torpor.
My opinion: This HoT should not be as powerful as a cleric one to not make it unbalanced but also not as "small" as not being worth to use it cause "Relic is better allways". This HoT should not either have the AC component of Torpor.
This HoT should not be a sustitute of our torpor / ancient torpor (at least not of both cause they are useful as self heals and are what makes canni5 even more useful, specially on groups/solo) but also should not be affected by a quick buff shaman AAs (again not too make it unbalanced; or balance it in a way that can be affected by quick buff, making this class AA more useful (atm I see loads of AAs more useful than this one).
This 2 HoT solutions wouldn't help a shaman heal more dps to jelp keeping the tank up (thing that began this discussion, the low healing power for a shaman) but would give shaman a more important role and more strategic possibilities in raids (that, as far as I know is what SoD 2.0 searches: everybody having a more important role).
- Slightly increase Relic heal.
My opinion: Already talked, I see it OK if it is increased on a slightly way to make us better but not as good as a druid or cleric (them being about 0.5 and 1.0 points over us and with group heals to them being about 0.25/0.75 and still having group heals over us):
- Not change anything.
My opinion: Obviously I don't think is the solution or I won't be posting here.
- Create a new heal (not fast) more mana consuming (not mana efficient) but with more healing power per second.
My opinion: I don't like this idea cause me and most shamans, knowing we finish with good mana most raid mobs, would use it over Relic one making relic devaluated, a lot less useful. I don't think a normal spell heal should be as or more useful than our relic one (even if it is only in some cases).
- Do a group HOT (Making druids have group heals, shaman group HoTs, clerics both).
My opinion: This group HoT should not be as good as a cleric one to make it balanced (should be at least enough to keep a group from AoEs).
- Do a targeteable HoT without the slow/snare component of torpor.
My opinion: This HoT should not be as powerful as a cleric one to not make it unbalanced but also not as "small" as not being worth to use it cause "Relic is better allways". This HoT should not either have the AC component of Torpor.
This HoT should not be a sustitute of our torpor / ancient torpor (at least not of both cause they are useful as self heals and are what makes canni5 even more useful, specially on groups/solo) but also should not be affected by a quick buff shaman AAs (again not too make it unbalanced; or balance it in a way that can be affected by quick buff, making this class AA more useful (atm I see loads of AAs more useful than this one).
This 2 HoT solutions wouldn't help a shaman heal more dps to jelp keeping the tank up (thing that began this discussion, the low healing power for a shaman) but would give shaman a more important role and more strategic possibilities in raids (that, as far as I know is what SoD 2.0 searches: everybody having a more important role).
- Slightly increase Relic heal.
My opinion: Already talked, I see it OK if it is increased on a slightly way to make us better but not as good as a druid or cleric (them being about 0.5 and 1.0 points over us and with group heals to them being about 0.25/0.75 and still having group heals over us):
Waldoff said:
Also, we have to take into account that canni is not the only thing that make us go oom later than other classes.
Let's examine this:
Shaman with Woundbane, base:
-285 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 1650, 5.7
Cleric with Light of Eternity, base:
-395 mana, 3.50 cast time, heals for 2700, 6.8
Druid with Sihala's Empathy, base
-345 mana, 3.75 cast time, heals for 2150, 6.2
We have a 5 min fight and we are chaincasting our heal without stopping:
Shaman: 80 heals casted x 285 mana each = 22800 mana = 100%
Cleric: 85 heals casted x 395 mana each = 33575 mana = 147%
Druid: 80 heals casted x 345 mana each = 27600 mana = 121%
Of course the mana is not real cause there is time between each cast, lag, etc. but the %s are and can be extrapolated to any situation.
That means that for the same amount of time and same focus on healing, by the time the cleric has consumed his 7500 mana pool the shaman only has consumed 5100 mana, so even without using canni, yeah we have more mana left, still 2400 (32%) for the same mana pool cause our heals cost less (and heal even less than they cost, in comparision).
Same for druid. When druid consumes his 7500 mana pool, we have consumed 6200, we have still 1300 left (18% mana pool)
I don't say canni is not mana regen important, just saying is not the only thing that makes us end with more mana or be the only healers at the end (and like Jose says, when this happens is a very probable wipe).
shanara99
Dalayan Beginner
I'll just point out that a cleric + a shaman can pretty much keep a tank in a raid (except nameds).... but the shaman is only able to "hold" a while untill the cleric crits. Higher base means higher benefits on crit. Fully AA'd + geared, you can reach about 35-40 % crit rate. Which unbalances a little too much things in favor of clerics.
So I think shamans can use a slight tweak in terms of reactive healing... small as increasing healed ammount by 200, and mana used by 30. This would get their ratio to 5.87, while giving them an almost 4k crit without AAs, vs their actual 3300 crit.
Yes, they'd still suck ass as healers, keeping their role as padders to a "real" healer, but this way they'd do anything else than "pray for the cleric (or druid) to crit"
So I think shamans can use a slight tweak in terms of reactive healing... small as increasing healed ammount by 200, and mana used by 30. This would get their ratio to 5.87, while giving them an almost 4k crit without AAs, vs their actual 3300 crit.
Yes, they'd still suck ass as healers, keeping their role as padders to a "real" healer, but this way they'd do anything else than "pray for the cleric (or druid) to crit"