luciferblack
Dalayan Elder
SoDPlayer said:
I totally agree with this statement.
pet 'fix'
- Thread starter Mjay
- Start date
I totally agree with this statement.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
luciferblack said:Well, I guess now mages and other pet classes only solo slightly better than rogues and warriors?
Time to go kill light blues guys.
The balance between pet classes and other classes has been a long time coming imo. One player with what is essentially 2 box character was unbalanced.
Nobody likes nerfs, but really all the changes seem to be is bringing them more in line with the soloability of other classes.
Some people complaining about soloing as a 60+ mage should try soloing as a melee post 60. When the best you can hope for against light blues is killing a few an hour, that's not really what I call great soloing ability.
That comparison would be more valid if the post-60 melees had started their leveling career playing a class that was excellent at soloing through all levels.
luciferblack
Dalayan Elder
Thinkmeats said:
Okay how about an equally geared pet class and equally geared melee of ANY level (after the pet class gets their pet)...the pet class will ALWAYS solo better. I made the post 60 comment due to how apparent it becomes later on. But honestly it occurs on every level in the game.
sorry to say but, warriors/rogues dont take a year to find a group , as mages/necromancers. And we are also not REALLY neded at raids, so 1 tops per each raid, so we definetly should be able to solo better then other classes.
When a person makes a necro/mage he thinks that if he cant find a group, no problem, he can solo if needed, but now... its just a total waste of time, its not balancing... i dont do a backstab of 2kdmg every 10 secs or something, mages dps is lower then wiz/rogues, so we are not dps class, and so, we are not very required at groups...
Well, that nerf sucked hard for soloable classes...
i just wanted an Admin/GM answer here, cuz if its going to stay as it is... i might make another char.
See yall.
When a person makes a necro/mage he thinks that if he cant find a group, no problem, he can solo if needed, but now... its just a total waste of time, its not balancing... i dont do a backstab of 2kdmg every 10 secs or something, mages dps is lower then wiz/rogues, so we are not dps class, and so, we are not very required at groups...
Well, that nerf sucked hard for soloable classes...
i just wanted an Admin/GM answer here, cuz if its going to stay as it is... i might make another char.
See yall.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Bringing everything in line in terms of soloability generally makes about 0 sense. Mostly because soloing is simply why you pick certain classes over others much of the time. Take mages, rangers and necros. 3 different types of excellent soloing classes.
Mages=> midrange solo'ers. Can't generally solo the amount and type of things the necro can, but can solo well and fast. Lack of snares, a decent root, and a method of selfhealing and debuffs is basically what sets them down a notch. In compensation, they get a stronger pet, and things to equip it with (very lacking) +ds
Rangers=> can pretty much solo anything that doesnt summon, given enough time, patience, and arrows. The tradeoff is that it can take a long time to do so. This has changed more than ever w/the eq change. Now instead of soloing forever w/3dmg arrows. They can solo a very long time w/8 or 9 dmg arrows, consequently I would think dropping the time spent /mob. Their snares, roots, heals, ds, sow, etc, all make them an excellent soloing class.
Necro's=> The exceptional soloers. Heck most of their spelllist seems custom made for soloing situations. They have, roots, snares, mezzes, undead nukes, poison and disease dots, etc etc etc. If a necro can't solo it and it doesnt summon, get a better necro.
Now in line with the logic that soloability be brought in to line, I guess rangers should be nerfed too eh? Hell, wizzies should probably get a nerf..because well they solo better than warriors. Really a nerf to mage soloing ability makes playing a mage very lackluster. You get far less dps than a wizard, lack roots for a very loooong time, and the only one you get is pretty shitty, lack snares, lack any sort of nukes other than fire (the last of which is gained pretty early in the 60's) and magic (which comprises all the late rains and the 65 relic dd bladewind) bringing you into near uselessness on some mobs in the first place (ie pot trash, very high magic resistance, nearly immune to fire, from bardinfo). Playing a wizard you would simply switch over to something better such as cold etc. Playing a mage, well your pet, + mala& malo cross your fingers, nuke and hope for the best. Why didn't I choose a wiz to start with? Soloability, + more activity maneuvering pet. I didnt really want to have to kite things to survive, nor did I wish to 2box, as I really dont find it all that much fun, and rather than splittting my time between 2 classes, I would rather play the one to the utmost of my ability. Now with aego + shammybuffs the pet sort of did perform the way he used to when I tested it last night. However I'm loath to think that I'll have to load up buffbots every single time I log on. But if thats what I gotta do, screw it I will. Of course I realize not everyone has access to higher level toons. At this point if I hadnt spent so much time on aa's + gear for ais, I would just start 2boxing shammy warr constantly.
Oh and no, the pet class will not always do better. Being a pet class everyone seems to think involves no skill whatsoever. For mages at least, you get aggro, theres a good chance you're dead. Pets are not nearly as good at keeping aggro as a melee is. Of course that depends on what you mean by melee... are you talking about warriors rogues and monks? Warriors have been and always will be shitty soloers. Its a tradeoff for being the best tanks in the game. Rogues? Do a tremendous amount of dps when properly geared, and are handy for a variety of other activities, as well as having an entire sort of sidegame just for their class, oh and they can pickpocket mobs w/out anyone evvverrr noticing. Monks? mend + a very large amount of pretty crazy aa's, the best splitters etc. A group/guild necessity in certain places, highlevel=> many of those places. So are we throwing in pallys sk's and rangers into melee too? they primarily do that after all (w/the exception of some rangers)... Sk's can solo some pretty incredible shit..Some incredible shit mind you that I could NOT solo as a pet class at the same level and level of gear...as a pet class. Pet simply dropped too fast, and mages arent known for their incredible hps. HT for emergencies, lifetaps, the spear spells, terror guard also for emergencies, both types of invis for scouting and feign death, also for emergencies...yeah I think they're pretty set. Pally's same kind of story, they can selfheal, have a very sought after buff later on, tank well, etc etc. Rangers...they're already mentioned above for their soloing ability though they do fall into the not exactly necessary for most groups role...hence their ability to SOLO.
Necros, mages, beastlords, bards, all not necessarily necessary for a group. Just a big heaping help of dps and utility. Dps? wizzies do it better, and generally end up getting chosen over mages, same story w/necros. Necro's even can fill up yet another slot other than dps, the cc spot. But if there's a chanter available, guess which one usually gets in the group. Especially in the case of a repeat class in a group. I've always heard, yeah grab the 2nd wiz. Rarely have I heard. Yeah grab that other mage, necro, bard or bl. These are all classes that are nice, very good classes. But not necessities.
There are other classes that fit the bill there. But note that fully half of them are pet dependant...Does that really come as a big surprise to anyone? If the soloability of the classes that need it is kept only slightly higher than that of pure melees..what the hell is the point of playing them?? For instance say mages and wizzies were balanced in terms of dps, before pets got whacked with this among other things. Are they now? Probably not. Snares, roots, and low mana nukes alone more than make up for the lack of pet. Lets not even get into the higher crit chance and ports. Are the classes balanced. No. Across the board thats probably a no. It's just to hard to balance a game perfectly with so many classes and only a few roles. Are pet classes even close to balanced now with the other classes, not at all in my opinion anymore.
Mages=> midrange solo'ers. Can't generally solo the amount and type of things the necro can, but can solo well and fast. Lack of snares, a decent root, and a method of selfhealing and debuffs is basically what sets them down a notch. In compensation, they get a stronger pet, and things to equip it with (very lacking) +ds
Rangers=> can pretty much solo anything that doesnt summon, given enough time, patience, and arrows. The tradeoff is that it can take a long time to do so. This has changed more than ever w/the eq change. Now instead of soloing forever w/3dmg arrows. They can solo a very long time w/8 or 9 dmg arrows, consequently I would think dropping the time spent /mob. Their snares, roots, heals, ds, sow, etc, all make them an excellent soloing class.
Necro's=> The exceptional soloers. Heck most of their spelllist seems custom made for soloing situations. They have, roots, snares, mezzes, undead nukes, poison and disease dots, etc etc etc. If a necro can't solo it and it doesnt summon, get a better necro.
Now in line with the logic that soloability be brought in to line, I guess rangers should be nerfed too eh? Hell, wizzies should probably get a nerf..because well they solo better than warriors. Really a nerf to mage soloing ability makes playing a mage very lackluster. You get far less dps than a wizard, lack roots for a very loooong time, and the only one you get is pretty shitty, lack snares, lack any sort of nukes other than fire (the last of which is gained pretty early in the 60's) and magic (which comprises all the late rains and the 65 relic dd bladewind) bringing you into near uselessness on some mobs in the first place (ie pot trash, very high magic resistance, nearly immune to fire, from bardinfo). Playing a wizard you would simply switch over to something better such as cold etc. Playing a mage, well your pet, + mala& malo cross your fingers, nuke and hope for the best. Why didn't I choose a wiz to start with? Soloability, + more activity maneuvering pet. I didnt really want to have to kite things to survive, nor did I wish to 2box, as I really dont find it all that much fun, and rather than splittting my time between 2 classes, I would rather play the one to the utmost of my ability. Now with aego + shammybuffs the pet sort of did perform the way he used to when I tested it last night. However I'm loath to think that I'll have to load up buffbots every single time I log on. But if thats what I gotta do, screw it I will. Of course I realize not everyone has access to higher level toons. At this point if I hadnt spent so much time on aa's + gear for ais, I would just start 2boxing shammy warr constantly.
Oh and no, the pet class will not always do better. Being a pet class everyone seems to think involves no skill whatsoever. For mages at least, you get aggro, theres a good chance you're dead. Pets are not nearly as good at keeping aggro as a melee is. Of course that depends on what you mean by melee... are you talking about warriors rogues and monks? Warriors have been and always will be shitty soloers. Its a tradeoff for being the best tanks in the game. Rogues? Do a tremendous amount of dps when properly geared, and are handy for a variety of other activities, as well as having an entire sort of sidegame just for their class, oh and they can pickpocket mobs w/out anyone evvverrr noticing. Monks? mend + a very large amount of pretty crazy aa's, the best splitters etc. A group/guild necessity in certain places, highlevel=> many of those places. So are we throwing in pallys sk's and rangers into melee too? they primarily do that after all (w/the exception of some rangers)... Sk's can solo some pretty incredible shit..Some incredible shit mind you that I could NOT solo as a pet class at the same level and level of gear...as a pet class. Pet simply dropped too fast, and mages arent known for their incredible hps. HT for emergencies, lifetaps, the spear spells, terror guard also for emergencies, both types of invis for scouting and feign death, also for emergencies...yeah I think they're pretty set. Pally's same kind of story, they can selfheal, have a very sought after buff later on, tank well, etc etc. Rangers...they're already mentioned above for their soloing ability though they do fall into the not exactly necessary for most groups role...hence their ability to SOLO.
Necros, mages, beastlords, bards, all not necessarily necessary for a group. Just a big heaping help of dps and utility. Dps? wizzies do it better, and generally end up getting chosen over mages, same story w/necros. Necro's even can fill up yet another slot other than dps, the cc spot. But if there's a chanter available, guess which one usually gets in the group. Especially in the case of a repeat class in a group. I've always heard, yeah grab the 2nd wiz. Rarely have I heard. Yeah grab that other mage, necro, bard or bl. These are all classes that are nice, very good classes. But not necessities.
There are other classes that fit the bill there. But note that fully half of them are pet dependant...Does that really come as a big surprise to anyone? If the soloability of the classes that need it is kept only slightly higher than that of pure melees..what the hell is the point of playing them?? For instance say mages and wizzies were balanced in terms of dps, before pets got whacked with this among other things. Are they now? Probably not. Snares, roots, and low mana nukes alone more than make up for the lack of pet. Lets not even get into the higher crit chance and ports. Are the classes balanced. No. Across the board thats probably a no. It's just to hard to balance a game perfectly with so many classes and only a few roles. Are pet classes even close to balanced now with the other classes, not at all in my opinion anymore.
tinkaa
*fake Tinkerbell*
- Relic mage pet with health 6, all pet AAs and buffs including relic aego and relic shaman bufs now has roughly 9600 hitpoints ans 1200 AC. The heals sure have to be tweaked in some way - either lower the recast time or improve them. Being able to heal 15% of pet's hitpoints every 20 seconds isn't much. And pets DO die really fast now.
About soloabilty - I think pet classes weren't even that superior before. I could solo better with my druid than my mage. She's superior in outdoor zones and ok in indoor, provided mobs don't summon. Having 3 different damage types and an awesome root makes up well for not having a pet.
Mind you - not every mage has relic pet and companion health 5+ focus items as well as an army of bots to buff the pet.
I think that it shouldn't be expected from a class that benefits a group less than let's say, a wizard, or druid, that has to rely on buffs to keep the pet strong.
About soloabilty - I think pet classes weren't even that superior before. I could solo better with my druid than my mage. She's superior in outdoor zones and ok in indoor, provided mobs don't summon. Having 3 different damage types and an awesome root makes up well for not having a pet.
Mind you - not every mage has relic pet and companion health 5+ focus items as well as an army of bots to buff the pet.
I think that it shouldn't be expected from a class that benefits a group less than let's say, a wizard, or druid, that has to rely on buffs to keep the pet strong.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Didnt before, now apparently they do, dont know when that was changed but can definitely confirm it. Airpet w/normally around 4.5k hps was rocking 5.8ish or so last night.
Danku
Dalayan Beginner
I do not know about the other mages, I can only speak for myself. With the level 63 pets and with AA to let my pet have comabt ferocity 1, combat agility 2 and Elemental Enchancement on top of that. I am having to heal twice as much against light blues. Dark blues have become far more difficult.
Before these changes I could solo a storm wolf with pet tanking, rains, pet heals. It was not an easy fight, but i was sure I would win as long as I didnt get agro. I tried one after the changes, without knowing how sever these changes were. The wolf had my pet under 30% so quickly that I was just shocked. I ended up rooting it, healing my pet, waiting for heal to pop, rerooting, healing and so on. That was a very close fight. If I did not have SoW, I would not have won.
I made a mage for solo ability due to my RL forcing me to ninja AFK often. Oops for not making it a necro. At least their general utility leaves them options.
Accidental or not, these changes have changed my class to the point of severely damaging playability. I know that hard numbers are preferred rather than anecdotal evidence, I just hope there is enough information posted by enough people to help the staff realize this matters.
Before these changes I could solo a storm wolf with pet tanking, rains, pet heals. It was not an easy fight, but i was sure I would win as long as I didnt get agro. I tried one after the changes, without knowing how sever these changes were. The wolf had my pet under 30% so quickly that I was just shocked. I ended up rooting it, healing my pet, waiting for heal to pop, rerooting, healing and so on. That was a very close fight. If I did not have SoW, I would not have won.
I made a mage for solo ability due to my RL forcing me to ninja AFK often. Oops for not making it a necro. At least their general utility leaves them options.
Accidental or not, these changes have changed my class to the point of severely damaging playability. I know that hard numbers are preferred rather than anecdotal evidence, I just hope there is enough information posted by enough people to help the staff realize this matters.
Amending my previous comments to point out that my pet did have WoN on him which would have increased his hps. I was not aware that pets were now benefiting from HP buffs. Had he not had WoN, he would not have been able to solo a gorge elder by himself, thus he is now underperforming what he did under the 1.0 ruleset.
i agree, you cannot just assume every mage has Relic pets + 1000 AA points and etc...
and also you cannot assume we will log in, ask a cleric/shaman/whatever else , to buff our pet so we can go solo... thats just ridiculous...
im still waiting to see what happens, till then...
and also you cannot assume we will log in, ask a cleric/shaman/whatever else , to buff our pet so we can go solo... thats just ridiculous...
im still waiting to see what happens, till then...
tinkaa
*fake Tinkerbell*
Sure, relic mage pets were really powerful before (Herbert and my druid could duo DotO add), but it seemed they were powerful because mages need powerful pets to make up for their only root, no snare, mez, etc. And if you weren't careful and took aggro from your pet or caught an unwanted add in your rain, you were pretty much dead (gate ftw).
A little less powerful would be ok, but twice weaker my pet looks almost like enchanter pet (yes, I might have been a bad master for sending him on whirlwinding mobs, but so far I always managed to recall+heal if it came to critical situation).
I'm pretty sure my boyfriend (shaman) and the guild clerics hate me for always forcing them to buff my pet (before that I only logged the shaman on for shaman buffs so he had more agi/dex). Not even casting potg on my pet with my druid is enough, he always needs relic focus :keke: :tinfoil: The best part sure is after a wipe on raid and everyone having soulbound buffs but my pet
I chose my mage as my first toon because I hadn't played Live and I was a complete noob and didn't want to rely on groups to progress. Needing all buffs and a healer to keep him alive should he offtank or just tag something is kinda meh, since wizards still do more dps and necro dots lower the damage output of the mobs + they have more types of damage.
I have never been picked in a group over a wizard because of mod rods or DS, and I'm usually the only one who uses them anyway, despite my 4 lines long spam button to use them before I summon new ones.
A little less powerful would be ok, but twice weaker my pet looks almost like enchanter pet (yes, I might have been a bad master for sending him on whirlwinding mobs, but so far I always managed to recall+heal if it came to critical situation).
I'm pretty sure my boyfriend (shaman) and the guild clerics hate me for always forcing them to buff my pet (before that I only logged the shaman on for shaman buffs so he had more agi/dex). Not even casting potg on my pet with my druid is enough, he always needs relic focus :keke: :tinfoil: The best part sure is after a wipe on raid and everyone having soulbound buffs but my pet
I chose my mage as my first toon because I hadn't played Live and I was a complete noob and didn't want to rely on groups to progress. Needing all buffs and a healer to keep him alive should he offtank or just tag something is kinda meh, since wizards still do more dps and necro dots lower the damage output of the mobs + they have more types of damage.
I have never been picked in a group over a wizard because of mod rods or DS, and I'm usually the only one who uses them anyway, despite my 4 lines long spam button to use them before I summon new ones.
luciferblack
Dalayan Elder
Ryei said:
It takes you a YEAR to find a group? Gee, I'm sorry for that. It must be rough. A year...wow...
I've had my rogue invited to groups...that had 2 mages in them at times. If you honestly think that warriors and rogues get picked up for groups before mages you're delusional. How about if there's no healer avalable? I bet they'd pick up a mage before a warrior or rogue. I know I would...and I don't play a mage. I've seen those groups many times. Who gets invited to what group is situational.
You know why mages get passed over on raids? The only reason - there's TOO MANY. That comes from it being too easy for them to solo.
luciferblack said:
It's funny you said this, as I am and have always been the only Mage in my guild for almost a year. I don't see that many mages around either as I travel through towns.
luciferblack said:
This is actually not the case now, and even then, I never technically "solo'd" on SoD, I would two box my mage and my cleric. And even now that's barely possible. I figured one day when no one was around I would take my mage and my cleric to the front of Eldenals just to kill the beginning mobs for slow xp and maybe some amulets, but I couldn't even do that effectively. My pet just got owned too fast. I could kill one mob at a time but would burn half of both chars mana for the one fight, and if I got an add? Forget it I had to zone, wasn't enough time to try to root the add, and re-adjust my pet so both were not attacking the pet before he would kick the bucket. It's a shame but such is life I guess. I usually only ever play SoD now to do some raids, my interest for anything else seems to have bottomed out.
tinkaa
*fake Tinkerbell*
I can think of many situations where you'd pick almost anything over a mage, not just because there are too many. Whirlwinding mobs? Bye pets. A healer would keep the rogue alive, but they seem to always forget about pets, since they're less dps. Mobs that have to be mezzed next to eachother? No rains and chain nuking often means the mage getting aggro, bye mage. Mobs that are resistant to both fire and magic? Bye mage dps.luciferblack said:
The configuration of groups is becoming more and more important as you are nearing level 65 and for some zones and mobs you need specific group in the first place.
Soloing sure was easy as hell until the pet heal timers were lenghtened, after that I found it easier to solo with my druid than the mage and I was never the one to chain heal the pet and let him do all the job (it takes way too much time to kill the mob), I just liked to solo other things than just light blue mobs.
With mage with relic pet, all pet AAs, companion health 6, companion strength 6 and all relics and druid with relic heal I was able to duo same mobs a 65 warrior and 65 cleric or 65 warrior and 65 shaman with ~150 AAs and same tier gear could (my mage has 430+, the druid 220+). Pre-changes. But that was due to having more dps, not the same quality tank, since I had to basically chain heal.
luciferblack said:
I agree, pick up groups are situational. But bottom line is, the best of the whichever utility needed for a group is going to be chosen. If CC is what you need, Enchanter will get first dibs, Bard, next, Necro last, someone with root, way last. If you need DPS, sure you're going to pick a rogue or a wizard over a mage, they just DPS best. PUGs all depend on if you are the right class LFG at the right time, end of story.
And no, unless you're in a family type guild like we are, I'm pretty sure only one mage is going to be used for a raid. Not because there are too many, but because they don't have the DPS of wizards and rogues, or even necros(dmg reduction from dots) for that matter. So,ya, you'll take more than one if there are just no others available to raid, but not if you don't have to. This is even more so the case with the 18 man limit. So when your second mage and wizard log on for the raid and there's only one spot left, guess who's going to the raid? The mage should be able to then go out and solo while everyone else raids. Again, like the pick up groups, this is situational, but think in terms of if you had the optimum classes to choose. Then you would have to agree, Mages and BLs should be able to solo well.
And as far as there being too many mages....I don't think that's the case as much as it was on WR. Back on WR, all you saw were mages, necros, and bl's. There were like very few non-boxed clerics, bards, rogues, warriors. Why, because there just was too many 2-boxing and the server count was far, far lower.
Now it seems there are many Bards, quite a few Rogues, and even many non-boxed Clerics. My Cleric often cannot get a pick up group because there are just too many Clerics LFG. All of these classes used to be unheard of, now there seems to be plenty.
Pet classes, aside from the Necro (which pet sux anyways) are supposed to rely on their pets, that's why they are pet classes. They should be able to solo a simple DB with no problems, and not having to be buffed prior to that kill. Otherwise, a Mage would simply be nothing but a bot that conjurs junk pre groups and raids. A Bl would be just a monk that cannot FD and a shaman that cannot slow, buff, DoT or heal as well. The Necro has more utility, so they'll just laugh at all the Mages and BL's siiting in Newport and Athica and run off and solo. None of these classes will be first pick for raids, especially if the raid already has one of each of them.
Is this anyone's fault? No. It's simply because there are more classes than utilities needed. Therefore, the classes that are not the major dealer of a necessary utility should be able to solo. As well as still being able to offer that utility or another if the need arises, just not as well as the main dealer.
As much <3 as I have for you, Kukov, I'm gonna have to side with the folks that think pets should go back to the way they were. I still <3 ya tho.
luciferblack
Dalayan Elder
Xardon said:
I played a friend's mage at one point. The mage was fairly well equipped and level 55 - http://shardsofdalaya.com/fomelo/fomelo.php?char=lillandria
Soloing was very easy.
This of course was before the pet heals were changed. Also this was before the pet tanking was changed.
I guess that pet classes aren't going to be dps/aux tank classes any more. it appears they're just going to be DPS. As such, mages may need a boost to pet dmg, since the big appeal of the mage earth pet was it's ability to tank fairly well.
It's an odd situation mostly for mages since they would have to have 4 pets balanced. Necros and Beastlords it'd be a little easier as they don't have to choose between pets.
I think pet heals should be changed back to how they used to be though. The pet heals are stupid now. I don't think pets should be able to tank as well as any melee class, but now that hp buffs work on them, I think pet classes should at LEAST be able to heal their pet efficiently.