Paladin HoT agro - alternate aggro suggestions

I can't tell you how many hours I played a paladin BEFORE HoT aggro was reduced, and if you're going to try and tell me it was hard to keep aggro with that you're an idiot.

After the fix, it is considerably harder to keep aggro on mobs, but it seems to be comparable to the other tank classes I've played.

I'm gonna go ahead and attack your credibility now, how often have you played a Shadowknight? A warrior?

Who cares, you're just gonna complain more.
 
Forgive me for not having the time and access to all three tank classes like you do. I am simply comparing my experiences as a mained paladin to the other in this thread. It seems i try to be helpful and balancing to my own class and other tanks come and shoot it down. I don't know exact numbers on ghot aggro generation, but you are talking like ghot aggro was god. Maybe it was out of line of where it should have been. I haven't asked for it to be changed back.


My problem, as its been, is that paladins have 3 spells (5 if you include undead ones) that are pbaoes. They don't get those until 61. Shadowknights get their first terror at 34 (if the wiki is correct). Again, now that lower level paladins have no means of aoe aggro generation, maybe when sk's get their first terror, paladins get their first aoe, like a pbaoe version of flash of light.
 
So in order for me to prove this i'm going to have to make a Video of my screen i'm requesting a free one if anyone knows a good one I can use I only need a few clips. But I don't think me writing examples is going to be benifical to this at all as they will be ripped apart by other players and I would have no prof of it.
 
I'm not even going to touch the 65 + paladin arument of this, although i've played a pally/warrior through a few tiers of raids on and off. However, I believe this pally group HoT nerf has royally screwed pre 60 paladins. I've got a pally alt that I use to help people with treak, who is pretty dam twinked (fomelo Salarus (and I know its nothing amazing, but I've yet to see a more twinked char on a traek raid)). In groups and on adepts before this tweak went in, I *still* had issues keeping aggro with FoL, then later on blinding light, and stuns, and group HoT. I've tanked traek 3 times in a row recently, and I simply *cannot* keep aggro no matter what I do. It's to the point where monks, rangers, rogues, even warriors who arn't taunting with 1/10th the quality of my gear are pulling aggro off me shortly after engaging. On Tmaps and in XP groups its nearly imposisble to keep aggro off any other melee, and try as I might the other day, I couldn't pull aggro off a 53 warrior with weapons that were not up to par, and who also had no haste. I just feel there is a major issue for paladins pre AoE stun/AoE FoL, and i'm hoping that maybe a new spell line, or a bump in FoL aggro or something along those lines would be implimented.

just my 2cp
 
Blubuds said:
So in order for me to prove this i'm going to have to make a Video of my screen i'm requesting a free one if anyone knows a good one I can use I only need a few clips. But I don't think me writing examples is going to be benifical to this at all as they will be ripped apart by other players and I would have no prof of it.
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http://www.fraps.com/download.php
 
Pallys don't need aggro anyway.......Save a Pally......hire a Warrior! TO VICTORY! HO! No really, all kidding aside............I like the change even though I'm not a pally, nor would I ever want to play one of those sissys. Kinda feels good inside. Only reason being, Warriors have been pretty much second to an equally HP/AC equipped Pally in the tanking role (except for some unique raid bosses). Until now........Amen. Seriously though.... I feel you pain. I am sorry you must experience the terrible pain I have felt deep inside since April '99. On a more positive note..the pain never passes......especially when a poorly equipped Druid in melee mode.....steals your aggro.


DISCLAIMER: The above comments are not to be taken seriously in any way.
They are the rantings of a crazed Dwarven Warrior who lost his
Job to Pally scabs that crossed the Freeport pickett lines of '01.
Please disregard the entire post. Thank you.
 
Drezzk said:
Pallys don't need aggro anyway.......Save a Pally......hire a Warrior! TO VICTORY! HO! No really, all kidding aside............I like the change even though I'm not a pally, nor would I ever want to play one of those sissys. Kinda feels good inside. Only reason being, Warriors have been pretty much second to an equally HP/AC equipped Pally in the tanking role (except for some unique raid bosses). Until now........Amen. Seriously though.... I feel you pain. I am sorry you must experience the terrible pain I have felt deep inside since April '99. On a more positive note..the pain never passes......especially when a poorly equipped Druid in melee mode.....steals your aggro.


DISCLAIMER: The above comments are not to be taken seriously in any way.
They are the rantings of a crazed Dwarven Warrior who lost his
Job to Pally scabs that crossed the Freeport pickett lines of '01.
Please disregard the entire post. Thank you.
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I think you missed a turn and ended up in a serious discussion forum and not Chillville.

This is pretty much exactly the kind of post that S&R threads don't need.
 
Again. I would say that PRE-65 paladins still need some help with the AOE aggro situation and imo the best option would be an AOE blind at 34, and changing Flame of Light into an aoe (boost the damage and give it a large aggro mod). This would solve the AoE aggro situation. S

ome people seem to not understand what I was saying about Flame of Light so here you go:

CURRENT:
Flame of Light
85 Mana
125 DD Single Target
Magic Resist Check

NEW SPELL:
Flame of Light
110 Mana
220 DD AOE
Increase Hate by 300
Fire Resist Check

It would change an useless spells into a great addition to the paladin AoE Aggro Lineup, Clearly it would be situational since it has a damage component. I think that it solve the situation nicely. Anyone else?
 
Bone said:
Again. I would say that PRE-65 paladins still need some help with the AOE aggro situation and imo the best option would be an AOE blind at 34, and changing Flame of Light into an aoe (boost the damage and give it a large aggro mod). This would solve the AoE aggro situation. S

ome people seem to not understand what I was saying about Flame of Light so here you go:

CURRENT:
Flame of Light
85 Mana
125 DD Single Target
Magic Resist Check

NEW SPELL:
Flame of Light
110 Mana
220 DD AOE
Increase Hate by 300
Fire Resist Check

It would change an useless spells into a great addition to the paladin AoE Aggro Lineup, Clearly it would be situational since it has a damage component. I think that it solve the situation nicely. Anyone else?
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I think it would need a higher mana cost, a recast timer or less pure hate.

Personally I would like to see:


CurrentNew
Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1) <br>Mana 12<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1)<br>Mana 22<br>Target AoE | MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5
Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 25 | 10.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 37 | 10.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)
Blinding Light<br>PAL(55)<br>Mana 80<br>Single Target | MR -200 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Blinding Light<br>PAL(39)<br>Mana 50<br>Targeted AoE | MR -50 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-10
Flame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 85 | 18.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>125 Direct DamageFlame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 140 | 36.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | FR -50 Adjust<br>225 Direct Damage +150 Hate
Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>PB AoE | MR -75 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>Targeted AoE | MR -150 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-15
Words of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -35 Adjust<br>Stun (8.00 Sec) | 201 DDWords of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -100 Adjust<br>Stun (3.00 Sec) | +250 Hate


This would create a smoother progression of AoE Tanking abilities, and make the use of blinds for single target tanking less efficient.

EDIT: Added in a change to Words of Thunder to make it viable in situations involving mez since there aren't any low resist stuns wihtout DD's that I could find at the higher levels.

EDIT 2: Changed Wave of light with respect to it being a PB AoE currently.
 
Daelius said:
blinding light is the proc off of hammer of ancient visions though
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I am sure that we could find it a new proc, and that fixing an entire class is a greater goal than 1 weapon's proc.
 
sorry, meant to make a better post... I like the idea of a better progression of aoes, just comparing it to sk, doing it at 9 is a little early, since SK's don't get their first terror until 34 (according to the wiki). But defintely gogo on getting more aoe aggro for the fledgeling paladin
 
Am I the only one that thinks AE tanking is borderline overpowered as is?

No group can come close to the amount of DPS generated from damage shields (100+) combined with multiple pulls.

1000+ dps on a 12 pull from damage shields alone.

Lets increase AE abilities? :what:


I really dont think this is the direction we want things going....
 
Pallish said:
Wave of light is a PBAoE.
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So it is. My bad!

Ponden said:
I really dont think this is the direction we want things going....
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AoE tanking already exists, and has pretty much been given as the Paladin's niche in things. You still have to be on mobs that you can survive the hits from 12 at a time, and you have to have a bard to get your DS that high along with a healer that can keep up with the damage you are taking. It isn't like this would give Pallys some magic button that says "Win!" and they just walk into any level 65 exp zone and kill the whole thing in one shot. Most of what I am suggesting is about creating a progression of AoE aggro instead of just slapping some on at level 62, and at the same time trying to make them less efficient single target tanks so that SK's can fill that role.
 
Tempus:

Wouldn't target AEs hit the caster when in melee range? I.E. you'd lose one target anyway and be blinding yourself once the mob(s) got in melee range?
 
Llanoldar Lluindar said:
Tempus:

Wouldn't target AEs hit the caster when in melee range? I.E. you'd lose one target anyway and be blinding yourself once the mob(s) got in melee range?
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Well I have been thinking about that myself, and to me that is a fair trade considering that paladin's have plenty of other useful tools that are PB AoE for when things get in real tight. Also, the blind only lasts 2 ticks if you don't resist it so we are talking about 12 seconds. I am a firm believer in everything nice having a counter balance, this creates classes with strengths and weaknesses.
 
Tempus said:
So it is. My bad!
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That's what had me confused last night!

Tempus said:
Well I have been thinking about that myself, and to me that is a fair trade considering that paladin's have plenty of other useful tools that are PB AoE for when things get in real tight. Also, the blind only lasts 2 ticks if you don't resist it so we are talking about 12 seconds. I am a firm believer in everything nice having a counter balance, this creates classes with strengths and weaknesses.
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I have to disagree here. If we take away all the single-target aggro spells, the AOE versions have to be used when tanking. You've converted all the blinds to targeted, which leaves only the stuns (with long recasts) to maintain aggro. I think the blinds should be made PBAE as well, at least leaving Wave of Light as PB.

As for blinding yourself, 12 seconds with a blind tank can mean a dead group in many situations, especially groups with less-than-perfect makeup (which shouldn't be discouraged from using a Paladin as the tank).
 
Bah they still have single target stuns. The point here is to make them better AoE tanks and worse single target tanks.

Do you guys want them to be different than Shadow Knights or not?

So make sure you understand how to use your blind spells before you cast them? I don't understand why every wants to eat theiir cake and have it to on everything. Pick the roll you want to play and stick with it.
 
Tempus said:
Bah they still have single target stuns. The point here is to make them better AoE tanks and worse single target tanks.
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But they still only have 8 spell gems. Single target stuns (again, with longish recasts) take spell slots away from AOE aggro spells, so that's not helping make them better AE tanks.

So make sure you understand how to use your blind spells before you cast them? I don't understand why every wants to eat theiir cake and have it to on everything. Pick the roll you want to play and stick with it.
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Understanding them, and being able to use them are 2 different things. Giving them multiple targeted AE blinds is pointless when they can only MAYBE use 1 of them on incoming (in tight quarters, it might not be possible to even get 1 off before the mobs get to camp). Taking away PBAE blind will make them worse AE tanks, not better. In my experience (admittedly somewhat limited since my Paladin is "only" 64), PBAE blind is currently the foundation of AE aggro. The AE stuns have way too long a recast (and a longer casting time iirc).
 
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